$8 "entrance fee" for all upcoming BR's

[baby mario]

who provides the equipment most certainly does matter hahahahaha.

Umm, you are laughing at nothing now?

the people who provide the equipment in organized sports have already inspected and passed the equipment they are providing, where as in pokemon, the people providing and inspecting the equipment are two different people. which is why i believe for this ruling to not be arbitrary and contradictory, its needs to be black and white. either every player must provide brand new sleeves for each premier event, or players should be given sleeves by the tournament organizers. having this middle-ground rule that forces to judges to make their best decision is exactly what is causing all the confusion and controversy.

Really? I've played plenty of organised sports where I had to provide my own stuff like football boots, tennis racket, cricket bat, bow for archery etc.

But apart from that I think I agree with you. People should start tourneys with new sleeves.

That doesn't solve everything cos sometimes the new sleeves have issues like the ones given out at worlds, but it makes things a bit easier, at least.

 

[calisupra2nr]

It depends on the sport and the equipment. You are provided shoulder pads, jersey, etc. On the other hand you are required to purchase your own cleats, baseball glove, lacrosse stick, shoes, etc. So who is responsible is dependent on a lot of things and is NOT clear cut.

Pokemon is pretty clear cut with what is provided (which is nothing in terms of what you need to compete). Pokemon however is not clear cut when it comes to what it truly expects. Let me break things down a little more.

1. The most commonly used tool to introduce new players is precon theme decks. The rule books inside do not state that you need high quality sleeves. This needs a second look.

2. There are no handouts given to new players that attend their first premier event, as some do not have access to online websites.

3. No one EVER says one is required purchase sleeves. It is instead just expected which is beyond false. It would be acceptable if it is explicitly stated that you must have high quality sleeves for premier events. Prerelease OP sleeves are terrible and wear uber fast in comparison with high quality, so "providing" these is not a way out.

4. How hard is it to add 1 more clause to an already atrociously long list of rules, that it is expected you purchase high quality sleeves for OP/Premier events.

I understand that we are all responsible for what we are supposed to bring, but I am not understanding of how things are presented to our players. I am lucky enough to have easy access to the internet and lists of rules. A good example of this was this past August when I was vacationing in South Carolina and I was looking at blister packs at a Target. A mother and her young son were checking out decks and tins, and then she asked me, what are the rules for my son to play this game. I said, well the theme decks have a rule book on how to play, but in terms of organized, I am not sure myself, you will have to check the website. She then said we do not have internet and she told her son that maybe next time he could get something. I knew right away what was taking place.

 

[PokePop]

1. The most commonly used tool to introduce new players is precon theme decks. The rule books inside do not state that you need high quality sleeves. This needs a second look.

The intro to organized play is league, not tournaments.
You don't need high quality sleeves for league. Putting such a requirement in an intro theme deck would be a mistake.

2. There are no handouts given to new players that attend their first premier event, as some do not have access to online websites.

This might be a good idea.
What would you suggest be in the handout?

3. No one EVER says one is required purchase sleeves. It is instead just expected which is beyond false. It would be acceptable if it is explicitly stated that you must have high quality sleeves for premier events. Prerelease OP sleeves are terrible and wear uber fast in comparison with high quality, so "providing" these is not a way out.

But players are NOT required to purchase sleeves.
You can play a deck unsleeved. It is your choice to use sleeves. And if you do, they must be unmarked.

4. How hard is it to add 1 more clause to an already atrociously long list of rules, that it is expected you purchase high quality sleeves for OP/Premier events.

There are rules about sleeves in the tournament document. Are you sure this is not covered? I'm sure it is.

I understand that we are all responsible for what we are supposed to bring, but I am not understanding of how things are presented to our players. I am lucky enough to have easy access to the internet and lists of rules. A good example of this was this past August when I was vacationing in South Carolina and I was looking at blister packs at a Target. A mother and her young son were checking out decks and tins, and then she asked me, what are the rules for my son to play this game. I said, well the theme decks have a rule book on how to play, but in terms of organized, I am not sure myself, you will have to check the website. She then said we do not have internet and she told her son that maybe next time he could get something. I knew right away what was taking place.

You mean the tactic all moms use to say no without saying no? Or do you mean something else?

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Pop, my son had to play the last two rounds of Nats unsleeved this year. Every single card he used is now marked. Playing unsleeved, especially with younger kids, will result in heavy wear to the cards they use. Such wear is CLEARLY marking by the standards being used for sleeves here ... and in fact it's worse in a way since you really can't unmark cards the way you can change sleeves.

From the judging pespective I clearly understand why having an unmarked deck is better than having one that's marked. I understand how dramatically marked cards can impact games, especially in the hands of skilled or unethical players. However the level of stuff I'm seeing being demanded here is well beyond what I think that most casual players would expect. There is a SIGNIFICANT burden being placed on the players if they have to get new sleeves at every other event or so.

It's not even just the money. I remember talking to my local card shop owner a weekend before an event. His supplier had been out of sleeves for weeks and his own stock was down to just 3 boxes of Pokemon legal stuff. I bought some as I was worried about one of my own decks but I kept wondering what would happen during the event if someone needed new sleeves. Odds were good that if 2+ folks were in need that they wouldn't be able to buy them.

If a venue is out of sleeves you are basically forced to play unsleeved as my son was at nats. I can easily see that happening in these economic times.

 

[PokePop]

VG: All I can ask is, did you or your son ask any of the staff about sleeves at Nats?
I know that for my group, Seniors, I got access to sleeves for players to use, since there was limited availabilty to get sleeves during the event.

He probably could have gotten a set of Darkrai PR sleeves to use. We had them to give to players that needed them.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

Yep. It's not really worth it to go into full details but it was either he run sleeveless or one of the two of us had to drop in order to go buy new ones. I'm not trying to highligh this one case so much as I am trying to point out that you can't really say "You can play a deck unsleeved. It is your choice to use sleeves."

That's just going to result in permanent card marking and the potential loss of a younger player as a result if this high standard holds to both cards and sleeves.

 

[MrMeches]

at no point in this thread did anyone say "im a casual player, the rules shouldnt aplly to me" perhaps fully reading this thread before posting would be beneficial....

i also feel as though making a comparison between pokemon and organized sports in a comparison that cannot be made. In all organized sports, some if not all equipment is provided. Do football player come to the game with their own helmets hoping to pass inspection? do they bring their own shoulder pads? no. all this equipment is provided by the league to the owners of the teams. it is all inspected prior to the events, and then evenly distributed to the players. Therefore, it is black and white, and regulated, where as the sleeve rulings are very gray. that is the problem i have.

In Sports... a little lesson coming up.. you have Owners. Those Owners, get this, BUY the equipment for the players. Novel idea really.

In Pokemon, YOU (now this is a stretch as some have parents do it) are the OWNER of your own Franchise.

So really, there is no difference. Your the Owner and have to buy Your equipment. When/If you win at certain events, You reap the benefits of that win! Yea!!

Now let's have a Brat & Kraut and move along.

Fish

 

[calisupra2nr]

In Sports... a little lesson coming up.. you have Owners. Those Owners, get this, BUY the equipment for the players. Novel idea really.

In Pokemon, YOU (now this is a stretch as some have parents do it) are the OWNER of your own Franchise.

So really, there is no difference. Your the Owner and have to buy Your equipment. When/If you win at certain events, You reap the benefits of that win! Yea!!

Now let's have a Brat & Kraut and move along.

Fish

False.

In sports, the league provides the equipment, not the owners. The National Football LEAGUE (or for Pokemon's sake, POP) provides all necessary standardized equipment. In Pokemon, we certainly do not hold any ownership in the franchise unless you own Nintendo stock. You own the cards you play with and that is the extent of ownership. POP does not provide anything with the exception of a venue and administrative team to organize. I have seen income statements and there are certainly areas that would allow for a higher quality prerelease sleeve so that us players can use those over purchasing new ones (that you are forced to use, or face ruining your cards).

 

[MrMeches]

False.

In sports, the league provides the equipment, not the owners. The National Football LEAGUE (or for Pokemon's sake, POP) provides all necessary standardized equipment. In Pokemon, we certainly do not hold any ownership in the franchise unless you own Nintendo stock. You own the cards you play with and that is the extent of ownership. POP does not provide anything with the exception of a venue and administrative team to organize. I have seen income statements and there are certainly areas that would allow for a higher quality prerelease sleeve so that us players can use those over purchasing new ones (that you are forced to use, or face ruining your cards).

Actually not False. I would say that the National Champ and World Champ.... now get this... Purchased their Own Equipment and received a Prize they can show for it. You own your personal portion of being a Player/Owner. Once you earn the Scholarship.. it is yours.. not TPCi. It is up to them to fulfil the payment of it.. sounds pretty close. OP provides Sleeves, that are Free with the admission to a PreRelease. WHAT FREE SLEEVES... BUT TPCi Doesn't GIVE ANYTHING FREE.

Here is the point... it is the PLAYER'S Responsibility to follow the Rules and Guidelines. It is a Judges Position to enforce them.

The Ohio Judges and P/TOs are fantastic having first hand knowledge of playing there. Numbers don't lie, and there are only 2 sour grapes threads about sleeves... would be interested to see if you two know each other....

Sleeves can be purchased BEFORE an event.. imagine that... just in case of this very issue.

Jeez....guess we should just not have Rules so we can do away with OP and just be... uno! Oh wait.. Uno has Rules too!

Fish

 

[NoPoke]

Just being honest is never enough. Your actions have to demonstrate that you are honest. You have to be seen to be honest.

Among friends or players you know where integrity and honesty has been established sleeves that are unacceptable for tournament play are frequently used and little or no comment made: League play for example. However at a tournament, even though you are still among friends, the presumption is that not everyone knows each other. The expectation is on players and staff to demonstrate that they are honest and have integrity. Unmarked sleeves is just a tiny part of that expectation: a small way in which players demonstrate to others that they are honest, have integrity and respect. Respect for all involved including those that they meet for the first time. Furthermore this demonstration is extended toward players you don't even like.

Playing with unmarked cards is a way of demonstrating to all that you want a fair game.

There is no negative inference to be drawn from marked cards. No slight on integrity or implied disrespect for others if you are playing with marked cards. Why not? Because the presumption is that players do not deliberately mark their cards to gain an advantage. Of course with that presumption comes an expectation that players will do their part too and take appropriate measures to demonstrate their honesty even to those that they have yet to meet.

 

[calisupra2nr]

Actually not False. I would say that the National Champ and World Champ.... now get this... Purchased their Own Equipment and received a Prize they can show for it. You own your personal portion of being a Player/Owner. Once you earn the Scholarship.. it is yours.. not TPCi. It is up to them to fulfil the payment of it.. sounds pretty close. OP provides Sleeves, that are Free with the admission to a PreRelease. WHAT FREE SLEEVES... BUT TPCi Doesn't GIVE ANYTHING FREE.

Here is the point... it is the PLAYER'S Responsibility to follow the Rules and Guidelines. It is a Judges Position to enforce them.

The Ohio Judges and P/TOs are fantastic having first hand knowledge of playing there. Numbers don't lie, and there are only 2 sour grapes threads about sleeves... would be interested to see if you two know each other....

Sleeves can be purchased BEFORE an event.. imagine that... just in case of this very issue.

Jeez....guess we should just not have Rules so we can do away with OP and just be... uno! Oh wait.. Uno has Rules too!

Fish

You did not refute anything I just said. I never said there weren't prizes to be had? Is that providing anything you need TO play...no...

 

[SteveP]

If TPCi or TOs start providing sleeves, obviously they're going to pass that cost to the consumers, some way or another. Either we'll see price-hikes or tournament entrance fees. It COULD work, but it will come at a cost.

@NoPoke: The Penalty Guidelines assume honesty. So, playing with good-condition sleeves isn't really demonstrating honesty, rather it's demonstrating a desire to avoid any possibility of being penalized. The newer the sleeves, the lesser the chance of a penalty.

The more ware-n-tear the sleeves have, the more cautiously the sleeves will be inspected -- they'll draw attention to themselves. Why? Compare it the ripples caused by throwing a pebble into a lake. If the water is calm, the ripples are clearly visible. If the water is choppy, the ripples are much harder to detect (unless you fixate on the point-of-entry). Likewise, damages/tears on new sleeves are easier to see than old sleeves, resulting in a quicker, easier inspection -- which is a good thing for deck checkers. When I do deck checks, I like to see new sleeves.

("broken record") Nevertheless, ware-n-tear, by itself, doesn't equate to marked cards. The ware-n-tear MUST cause some sleeves/cards to be clearly distinguishable from others. If all sleeves/cards are uniformly worn, there's no "marked cards" penalty.

 

[calisupra2nr]

One simple way of ENSURING clarity would be for a season beginning fee of $15 and you are provided high quality POP certified sleeves that have a high resistance to wear and tear such as the dragon shields. I actually have a great idea that I will post in a seperate thread, "Season Fee and Packet- Mandate for Premier Events"

 

[kwisdumb]

Pokemon already provides sleeves at pre-releases.

I understand that the rules on sleeves have seemingly gotten tighter these past few months, but players of every other CCG seem to understand the concept of sleeves without having to have them assigned by the company that makes the game.

I think this is getting blown out of proportion, personally.

 

[SteveP]

I think this is getting blown out of proportion, personally.

By which side? The players who want to use worn sleeves, or the TOs/judges who want near-new condition sleeves?

Certainly, the disproportionality might be that very few players/judges are debating here in this topic, but that doesn't make the discussion any less valid.

And, sleeves are provided at pre-releases, but I'm guessing it's more of an "incentive" to pay-n-play rather than a free gift. Plus, those sleeves are historically poor quality, though certainly cool.

I'm not advocating a push for TPCi-provided sleeves. I'm just a proponent for correct and reasonable application of the "marked cards" penalty.

 

[kwisdumb]

By both sides, I guess.

I think the discussion that's going on here is good for the most part, I just think it becomes silly when people start talking about how sports leagues handle equipment and the like. I just feel that it's a lot more simple than most people in this discussion are making it out to be, is all.

 

[SteveP]

[ ] SLEEVES
• Do the sleeves meet the legality requirements, as defined in section 14.2. of the tournament rules?
• Are there sufficient markings on the player’s sleeves that could create an unfair advantage?
• Are all of the sleeves the same width and height?

FYI, section 14.2 is now actually section 16 in the 2009-2010 Tournament Rules.

The second item above (and re-iterated in section 16), doesn't stop at "Are there sufficient markings on the player’s sleeves...." It stipulates that those markings must "create an unfair advantage" -- because those markings cause certain cards to be distinguishable from others.

If I put a stack of sleeved cards on the table, even if the cards/sleeves are brand new, some cards/sleeves might be distinguishable from others.

So, to fit the definition of "marked cards:"

1. the cards/sleeves must have "marks."
2. the markings must cause some cards/sleeves to be clearly distinguishable.
3. the markings must cause an unfair advantage.

#1 & #2 are fairly straightforward -- little room for variation. #3 can be very subjective. Therefore, some judges and deck checkers vary -- some more suspect than others.

Oh well, I've had my say on this subject. It's run its course for me.

 

[yelanates]

I'm bringing extra sleeves to my BR, both in case for myself, and as extras for others.

Worst case scenario, you can play without sleeves.

 

[SLOW DECK]

Reading this thread makes me a less happy person.

I must be missing something.

Steve, as often you are the voice of Reason.

If my cards are randomly worn.... How could I use this to my advantage to Win a Pokemon Tournament. Does one study each an every card? So that I know each of the random markings signify, and then studies hard the entire week so that he knows every card, like a magician learning the code of his magic deck.

Let’s take this thought exercise forward:

After a my opponent cuts my deck, I can know that that top card of my deck that has 2 scuffs on the top right quadrent, with a piece of dirt on the lower left quadrant, with a bent right bottom corner must be my Night Maintainence. Or wait, is that a new piece of dirt on the lower left quadrant... if it is, then this card might be one of my baltoys? OMG? What do I do? I am confused, that dirt doesn't seem like it is right.... Did my opponent intentionally scuff my cards and bend that corner to fake me into thinking this top deck card is a NM?

Seriously, maybe I am not devious enough, but I don't get it.

All I know is that “cheap” players have ammunition to call a player who is least likely to cheat in the match for some random card marking that the “cheap” player probably did themselves because this state of hyper sensitive judging environment.

(Again, deck and sleave checks are fine as done there in Ohio, sleeves don't last forever. Game penalties for innocent worn sleeves is silly and can obviously be abused by "cheap" players.... A Very Clear pattern of which cards are marked..., that's cheating, game loss, DQ, throw the book at them.)

 

[calisupra2nr]

I must be missing something.

If my cards are randomly worn.... How could I use this to my advantage to Win a Pokemon Tournament. Does one study each an every card? So that I know each of the random markings signify, and then studies hard the entire week so that he knows every card, like a magician learning the code of his magic deck.

Let’s take this thought exercise forward:

After a my opponent cuts my deck, I can know that that top card of my deck that has 2 scuffs on the top right quadrent, with a piece of dirt on the lower left quadrant, with a bent right bottom corner must be my Night Maintainence. Or wait, is that a new piece of dirt on the lower left quadrant... if it is, then this card might be one of my baltoys? OMG? What do I do? I am confused, that dirt doesn't seem like it is right.... Did my opponent intentionally scuff my cards and bend that corner to fake me into a game loss?

Seriously, maybe I am not devious enough, but I don't get it.

All I know is that “cheap” players have ammunition to call a player who is least likely to cheat in the match for some random card marking that the “cheap” player probably did themselves because this state of hyper sensitive judging environment.

Haha exactly, it is the most absurd thing trying to cheat using dirt or random bends/scratches in a sleeve. I just bought new sleeves because of this crap. I made sure to buy what the guy running the card shop said were the absolute best...dragon shield I guess. He said they are micro cut to ensure the millimeters are spot on becuase in a past tournament one sleeve was a mm off and a guy was called out for cheating and since rules are rules he was DQ. Lol some people that play card games are just absolute losers in the world. BTW, this was magic not Pokemon.