Change From Tradition to Better the Game

[Slev]

I consider myself a card player. I'm a frequenter of games such as poker, blackjack, magic, triple triad, WoW TCG, Ascension like games, and of course Pokemon. I am not an outstanding Pokemon player nor am I hopelessly bad.
I have seriously played the Pokemon card game for a year now. I, like many others, use to play in the Base Set era at my local card shops, quit, and then returned to the game. I started playing again last year right before states. I'm a frequent Bubbler missing many Top Cuts by a few places. I have Top Cutted at a states and regional last year though. After a year of play I am enjoying the Pokemon TCG more than ever, and am excited for the BC-Plasma Gale format as well as states.
There is, however, one piece of the Pokemon TCG that I truly dislike. This facet has been around for the entirety of the card game. Some might even consider it the core tradition of Pokemon TCG.

I am talking about Prizes.

What are prizes(abridged)?

Players take 6 cards from their deck and place them face down. These prizes are then taken when an opposing pokemon is knocked out. Take all of your prizes and you win the game.

Why am I opposed to the current system?

Well first off I am not entirely opposed to the prize system. It makes sense as a symbolic way to represent defeating 6 rival pokemon.
The problem for me lies in the following statement, "Players take 6 cards from their deck and place them face down".
As any tcg player knows there is an amount of variability to card games. The cards you draw, The cards your opponents draw, 50/50 actions, who starts the game, etc.
Pokemon, however, has additional variance brought upon it by the Prize system.

The prize system not only drastically effects what a player draws, but also drastically alters the relevence of cards remaining within the deck.


If I prize all 4 of my tynamos(however unlikely) all the eelektrik in my deck are now useless. In addition to this the relevance of level ball has decreased to merely deck thinning(assuming no other 90- hp pokemon than tynamo/eel).
Additionally I am a great disadvantage and nearly an automatic loss due to the entirety of my energy acceleration being removed from my deck. Such a situation should not occur in a healthy card game.
Players should be able to create a deck, and be capable of using the entire functionality of the deck from turn 1.

The prize system can effectively make a game unwinnable.

While the prize system increases variance the bigger problem is the range of outcomes it can provide. As I stated above someone could theoretically prize all 4 tynamos/eeletriks/etc.
A player can lose an entire facet of this deck from the very first turn while his opponent can seemingly prize multiple cards that are not relevant to the match (ToolScrapper, Enhance Hammer, etc) increasing his draws of relevant cards.
The large breadth of outcomes all from the prize system seems unacceptable to me.

A player should not be completely removed from a game before a game even starts due to random chance.

While such an outlier occurrence is not common, losing games because of prized cards can be quite common. Listen to banter after a round of Swiss, and I can guarantee you that much of it will consist of, "I prized X....".
It is infuriating when I lose a game because a card is prized, but it is even more infuriating to me when I beat an opponent who has played a better game than me because he prized win condition cards.
It degrades the win I have against my opponent when they prize key cards.

The prize system also limits deck composition. It is unwise to run a 2-2 line of a pokemon in a deck due to the possibility of prizing pieces of that line. Such limitations forces players to play more pokemon than would be necessary without the prize system.

For these reasons the current prize system is unacceptable.


How do we fix it?

I propose not removing the prize system, but instead making it a separate entity from a player's deck. Players would play with 60 cards in their deck. Prizes cards would simply be token cards that are used to symbolize
the game progress. After a person draws all 6 of their prizes the game is won as before. If necessary we could instantiate that when a prize card is taken a player would also draw a card from their deck.

What are the consequences of said new system?

Players have more consistent access to all cards in their deck.
Players do not have auto loss situations where entire facets of their decks are removed from the start of the game.
Draw/Search power becomes more important as players start with 53 cards in their deck after setup.
Judges no longer have to give out game losses for players not laying out prizes.
Setup of the game will be quicker as prizes can be laid out before mulligans even occur.
Skilled players will probably become more dominant and consistently do better at tournaments.
Pokemon lines can decrease instead of having to compensate for the possibility of prizing components.
Town Map and Unlimited cards(rotom mischievous tricks) will become useless.(cards like shaymin ex will be unaffected).
Cool new prize card art can allow for more player customization.

What do I want from the community?

Try it out. Play a few games with friends with this new system(it can easily be done through playTCG). Tell me how you feel about it. Do you hate it or love it? Why?
If you enjoy it as much as I do be sure to voice your opinion. Make the Pokemon Company hear your voice, and perhaps eventually we can see this change become a reality.

Closing Thoughts

Pokemon TCG is over 10 years old now. It has gone through changes but nothing as drastic as this. Incoming a cheesy analogy. Any changes to the TCG before this point could be analogous to a pokemon learning a new move.
This new prize change would be analogous to a Pokemon evolving. It is time for the Pokemon TCG to evolve into a better and stronger game. Our community of trainers can help it evolve into something greater.


Disclaimer: I'm not a great writer, apologies. Also let me know if you feel I'm totally off base with this post.

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

Interesting idea. But may e instead of tokens its actual cards. You deck and prize cards cannot contain more then 4 copies of a card. When you KO an opposing pokemon you reveal one of your prize cards(2 for exs) and you get the immediate effect of the cards you reveal. Ie i KO a tynamo and reveal cheren i can draw 3 cards.

 

[losjackal]

If you're proposing changing the game design to minimize this...

A player should not be completely removed from a game before a game even starts due to random chance.

Shouldn't you also address the coin flip and the advantage going first gives you, the chance of having a bad Basic in your opening hand, and the chance of Supporter or Energy drought during the first few topdecks?

There are chances of all of those happening. I don't know where you would justify drawing a line. Can't do much about the coin flip (except utilize First Ticket), but compensating for bad prizes, starting Pokémon, and enough Supporters and Energy are part of deck construction strategies.

 

[NoPoke]

The only change I can imagine for prizes might be that players are allowed to select 6 cards from their deck and place those before drawing their opening hand. Likelihood of this happening? close to zero.

I'd want to change the win condition by being benched too. Take prizes as normal by knocking out pokemon. Change the win from benching to the end of the turn and not immediate. Add taking a prize if a player has no pokemon at the start of their turn.

Chances of this happening? much the same as being allowed to choose your prizes.

---

Might work for the professor cup though

 

[AnUnown]

I'd always wished prizes were real prizes honestly. Say tpci gives some promos like holo energy or trainers and they're randomly distributed to each players prizes (that they keep). Not sure it'll work, but yeah

 

[vaporeon]

Another idea could be you play with your 60 card deck and each time a Pokemon is KOed, it goes to the prize area face up and is removed from the game. KO 6 Pokemon and win.

 

[losjackal]

^^ Clever, but flawed. Rescue Scarf? Super Rod? Revive? Ho-oh ability?

Overall I see merit to the idea, and would support testing the concept of having all cards in the deck when beginning a game. It's just a different way of playing and constructing a deck, and it removes the "I had bad prizes" reason for losing. There are still plenty of ways to lose on chance.

(I wonder if having all cards available would make certain decks too powerful, thus letting a BDIF surface.)

 

[TRAINER HEZ]

In the 150 variant format you draw your hand and prizes together, select which 7 cards you want in your hand then shuffle the rest and put them face down as your prizes. This means nothing gets prized if you really don't want it to and allows for more reliable set ups. Of course 150 is a 100 card singleton deck so the added consistency is a bonus... not sure how good it'd be for 60 card decks. Give it a try?
The bonus for this system is that it doesn't alter the rules of the game too much by adding extra cards and allows a little extra strategy before the game even properly begins.

 

[eriknance]

Here are a couple of ideas that might work while maintaining the "6 Prizes" portion of the game that is near-and-dear to so many...

1. Players are given the chance to outright choose their 6 prizes before setup. Not that I've played Yu-Gi-Oh ever, but I'm familiar with the concept of "trap" cards, and I think this could exist in the Pokemon TCG outside of Power Spray. By being able to choose your prizes, you keep from being "prize-screwed" while adding a strategic element to the game. If a popular deck has the effect of discarding Special Energy, you might make your first two prizes Double Colorless Energy to overcome that disadvantage. By knowing your prizes, you can effectively grab the right card when you need it. Yes, it would mean that players will always have access to a good draw Supporter so long as they take a prize, but this would be available to both players, so it's "fair."

2. The other option could come in the form of a new in-game mechanic or a clever Ability. Consider the following card:

Duskull Psychic - HP70

Ability: Prize Find
Before either player has set up, you may use this Ability. Set this card aside facedown and set up like normally. This card takes the place of one of your Prize Cards. If this card is a Prize Card, you may place it on your bench when drawn.

[P] Counter Curse
Place one damage counter on your opponent's Active Pokemon. If this Pokemon has damage counters on it, place three damage counters instead.

Weakness: Dark x2
Resistance:
Retreat: 1

See there? I just killed two birds with one stone. You can now get evolutions in play easier, and you have control over your prizes...

I should be a card designer. @_@

 

[Hikari_Netto]

The main complaint I hear about the prize system is that, unlike many other games, it continually rewards the player who's ahead and not the player who's behind. Michael Elliot, the man who designed Duel Masters for WotC (as well as many Magic cards during his time there) and Battle Spirits for Bandai among other things, has stated in the past that the way the prize system works is his main issue with the Pokemon TCG.

When one of your shield cards is broken by your opponent in DM or Kaijudo, it's moved to your hand. When you lose life in Battle Spirits it adds to your resources allowing you to play more cards in an attempt to catch up. Cardfight!! Vanguard also has mechanics like Counterblast and Limit Break, in which you can use damage you've received to activate special effects. As such, there have been many that feel the prize system would be better if it worked in reverse. The player who's Pokemon is knocked out receives the prize, rather than the player who knocked the Pokemon out. When you take all six of your prize cards, you lose.

 

[psychup2034]

If I prize all 4 of my tynamos(however unlikely) all the eelektrik in my deck are now useless.

The odds of prizing all 4 of a card when you play Pokemon are 0.0031%, or about 1 in 33,000 games. Over a weekend, you’re likely to play about 10-15 games of Pokemon if you’re doing well. Let’s just say that you play 13 games of Pokemon every weekend. Your odds of prizing 4 of a card are 0.03998%, or about 1 in 2,500 weekends. A competitive season is about 20 weekends, so approximately one weekend every 125 years, you’ll be faced with the problem of prizing your 4 Tynamo.

You’re more likely to die in a car accident or get stabbed by a mugger on your way to the Pokemon tournament than you are to prize your 4 Tynamo.

The larger problem with the prize system is, as masterryanx mentioned, that the prize system rewards the player that is ahead instead of the player that is behind. The issue of prizing copies of particular cards isn't really a problem at all if you're skilled at deckbuilding (and you check to see what's prized each game). Prizing particular copies of cards happens so rarely that bad prizes has only truly lost me 1 game over the last 2 seasons. Most people use "I prized X" as an excuse for defeat, while the real reason generally lies elsewhere.

 

[Glumanda]

The main complaint I hear about the prize system is that, unlike many other games, it continually rewards the player who's ahead and not the player who's behind. Michael Elliot, the man who designed Duel Masters for WotC (as well as many Magic cards during his time there) and Battle Spirits for Bandai among other things, has stated in the past that the way the prize system works is his main issue with the Pokemon TCG.

THIS!!!!!
I would like see the prize system to be reversed. Everytime a Pokemon is KOed the player whose pokemon is knocked out draws a "prize" (this would have to be named differently). You draw the last "prize", you lose. This would open up a lot of design space for the developers. You could think of something similar like the "shield triggers" in Duel Masters: In Duel Masters you have five shield cards. When an opponent´s creature attacks, it breaks a shield and you get that card into your hand. If the card is a "Shield trigger", you can play it immediately without paying its cost. This prevented Duel Masters from having many complete lopsided games because the player who is behind gets the card advantage and sometimes a super bonus. There was e.g. a Shield trigger which killed a creature of the opponents which would otherwise costet 6 mana.

Think of something like this:
Toxoconfusing Laser
Your opponent´s active Pokémon is poisoned.
Shield trigger: If you draw this card from your shields, you may play it immmediately. If you do, your opponent´s active Pokémon is also confused.
(let´s eliminate coin flips^^)

or this:
Ability: Shield evolution
If you draw Blastoise from your shields, you may show it to your opponent and place it on a Squirtle on your bench.

or this:
Clairvoyant (Supporter)
Exchange one card from your hand with one of your shields.

etc. pp.

I´m allowed to dream, right?^^

 

[vaporeon]

Can someone play a few game like this and see how it works where the player who Pokemon is knocked out takes a prize.

 

[Otaku]

Shouldn't you also address the coin flip and the advantage going first gives you, the chance of having a bad Basic in your opening hand, and the chance of Supporter or Energy drought during the first few topdecks?

One only needs consider other problems to make sure a solution that improves one area does not make things worse in others; you shouldn't avoid fixing one problem just because another, or even a greater problem exists. Addressing one does not preclude addressing the others.

If anything, it makes more sense to analyze a small, easier to solve problem, come up with solutions, and then check their impact on the rest of the game, to decide which is the best solution.

There are chances of all of those happening. I don't know where you would justify drawing a line. Can't do much about the coin flip (except utilize First Ticket), but compensating for bad prizes, starting Pokémon, and enough Supporters and Energy are part of deck construction strategies.

If you do not know where to draw the line, you probably need to take a step back from this, because it isn't a major conundrum.

You examine what is feasible from a game mechanics standpoint, what is feasible with respect to keeping the game accessible to newer/younger players, you keep in mind what is feasible from a "flavor" stand point (e.g. within the constraints of the Pokémon license), and what is actually feasible from a business perspective.

For example, to make things "more fair" a game clock as been suggested, however it isn't something cost effective for large tournaments and would create an extra piece of equipment for play and make the game harder to learn.

^^ Clever, but flawed. Rescue Scarf? Super Rod? Revive? Ho-oh ability?

Overall I see merit to the idea, and would support testing the concept of having all cards in the deck when beginning a game. It's just a different way of playing and constructing a deck, and it removes the "I had bad prizes" reason for losing. There are still plenty of ways to lose on chance.

(I wonder if having all cards available would make certain decks too powerful, thus letting a BDIF surface.)

Just because some cards in the current card pool are incompatible, does not mean we should forbid a mechanic from being used in the future. If a card/deck is too powerful because a card in it wasn't prized... it is too powerful. A "chance" of being Prized doesn't make something balanced, it just provides the illusion of being balanced.

If it Creatures, Inc. did decide to alter the basic rules suddenly, I would presume that certain cards would receive an errata. Also... does every card that makes up a Pokémon have to go to the (now inaccurately named) Prize Zone or just one card from it? This would be one way to balance out Basics and Evolutions a bit without complex card interactions while they are on the field; run a Basic Pokémon, and when it is KOed it is KOed. Run an Evolution, and a robust line could allow you to "Prize" each Stage once, leaving the rest in your discard pile for other effects, like Super Rod.

I could see Revive and Rescue Scarf working by placing themselves into the Prize zone in lieu of what was actually KOed.

As this post is lengthy enough as is, I shall hold off weighing in general over my own ideas and views upon this.

 

[FSULugia]

I dont see what the fuss is over the prize system. Its not THAT bad. It gets annoying when your Pokemon that you need are stuck in there, but sometimes you just deal with it. I like when they had Azlef legal and you could get the Pokemon you need out of your prizes and that card would be good for certain decks that really need certain Pokemon.

The examples in the OP are too extreme and never really happen THAT often. I get what the OP is saying but god awful luck is going to happen no matter what. Your hand could be 4 Tynamo and 4 Eeltrik, but what can you do really.

 

[eriknance]

I dont see what the fuss is over the prize system. Its not THAT bad. It gets annoying when your Pokemon that you need are stuck in there, but sometimes you just deal with it. I like when they had Azlef legal and you could get the Pokemon you need out of your prizes and that card would be good for certain decks that really need certain Pokemon.

The examples in the OP are too extreme and never really happen THAT often. I get what the OP is saying but god awful luck is going to happen no matter what. Your hand could be 4 Tynamo and 4 Eeltrik, but what can you do really.

4 Tynamo prized? Hyperbole. Ace Spec prized? Happens a lot.

For me, I always grimace when I see cards like Lv.X, Ace Specs, and the ex-series "shiny" Pokemon get released, mainly because of the prize system. Ace Specs are perhaps the very worst example of this issue, not just because they're one-ofs with immense power but also because of the format they have been released in. No Azelf, no Rotom, no Mysterious Diamonds or Pearls (or whatever those cards were called). Having an Ace Spec prized can cost a player the game, hands down. Especially with Skyla hanging around.

Now I've seen all the talk about the "unfair" advantage gained when a player KOs a Pokemon and takes a prize, but remember that this tiny boost also aids the player who is behind in prizes. If you're opponent has taken 3 prizes because of a quick Tornadus EX and you finally nab 1, wouldn't it seem unfair for your opponent to gain an extra card in this situation? To me, this is where the card creators could and have stepped in to design cards that help players "catch up." Shaymin EX, Scramble Energy, Black Belt... players should utilize these cards to get back in the game and we'll have a healthy trade-off of prizes. The advantage gained when KOing a Pokemon would hardly be noticed.

Please note that I too think it problematic when speed decks rip through an opponent's field within the first few turns of a game and not only get closer to victory but get the added "prize boost" as well. But even then, PCL could create cards to combat those situations... perhaps an Ace Spec that auto KOs an opponent's Active Pokemon if you're behind by 3 prizes? Or, if that was too much, how about an Ace Spec that shuffles the opponent's Active Pokemon and all cards attached to it into their deck? Then, if players get to choose their prizes, you can plan ahead for when you do take that first prize... just a thought...

 

[Otaku]

Most of the intended "catch-up" cards a problem because they can't be designed just to compensate for bad luck and questionable game design. In fact, most attempts have just been generally powerful cards players exploit without truly being behind.

Let me take a related topic; I don't like "donking" in the game. Before even worrying about the rules of the game, if this was something Creatures, Inc. wanted to eliminate, the long term solution is simple: stop designing cards that can attack for damage first turn. With the current card pool, this isn't easy; too many forms of Energy acceleration, and of course so many things out currently can attack for damage first turn.

However, if Creatures, Inc. felt this was the direction to go, future sets would just be designed with card meant to attack early focusing on set-up or disruption. Suddenly players aren't getting KOed first or second turn, so barring outlandish card design you should have a fair chance of getting a second Pokémon into play.

I am liking the idea of replacing Prizes by having one physical card from the Pokémon (e.g. Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2) set aside to "count" how many points ("Prizes") your opponent has earned, and first to six wins.

I would also consider inverting the pattern, as seen in Kaijudo: Duel Masters and its predecessor Duel Masters. Note that completely on your own, this will not address the concerns raised by "random cards from the deck" for Prizes. What it does help with is now anytime your opponent KOs something of yours... you are taking a Prize.

You are getting more resources... but you are also coming closer to losing. In the games I referenced, you get five "Shield" cards taken from the top of your randomized deck, and if none of your Creatures are defending you, attacks are made directly against you and smash shields. Adjusting this to Pokémon flavor, you would just set aside six cards from your deck, and anytime one of your Pokémon is KOed, you get to add said card to your hand. When all six are gone... you lose.

To address the specific concern of the randomness, I would suggest a player get to choose what cards to use as "Prizes". Unlike applying this concept with the current model, now it functions as a balancing agent; instead of the player already dominating the field getting extra cards in hand, it is the player usually "losing", and each card added to hand brings them closer to actually losing. I would go so far as to suggest only cards specifically marked to be Prizes be used with either proposed mechanic.

 

[psychup2034]

Ace Spec prized? Happens a lot.

For me, I always grimace when I see cards like Lv.X, Ace Specs, and the ex-series "shiny" Pokemon get released, mainly because of the prize system. Ace Specs are perhaps the very worst example of this issue, not just because they're one-ofs with immense power but also because of the format they have been released in. No Azelf, no Rotom, no Mysterious Diamonds or Pearls (or whatever those cards were called). Having an Ace Spec prized can cost a player the game, hands down. Especially with Skyla hanging around.

I've only ever played Computer Search as my Ace Spec of choice this year, so let me talk about that. Sure, Computer Search is one of the most powerful cards in the game. Searching your deck for any card is one of the strongest effects that has been printed—ever.

Prizing an Ace Spec can certainly lose a player a game, but after the first search of my deck, I already know whether the Ace Spec is there or not. After searching my deck, I'll know whether I need to play around the fact that I have no Computer Search, or whether I can expect to Skyla at any time I want to get a Computer Search. Once I know what's in my deck, I will know how to play with the cards I have.

For example, on the first day of the New Jersey marathon, I was playing Rayeels against a Blastoise/Keldeo EX deck and prized 3 Tynamos. As a result, I completely changed up the way I played that matchup. Usually, when your opponent benches multiple Squirtles, the best plan is just to hit their EXs and try to draw 6 prizes through 3 EX knockouts. Because I prized 3 Tynamos, I took the strategy of KOing Squirtles as soon as possible so that I can draw through my prizes to find the other Tynamos. I used 2 Catchers on turns 2 and 3 to draw 2 prizes (and find a Tynamo). Eventually, I was able to Dragon Burst to take 2 prizes, finding one more Tynamo.

To give another example, last year in top cut at Fall Regionals, I was playing Magnezone/Yanmega and prized all 3 of my Magnezones. I changed up my game plan and used my resources to swarm Yanmegas and take early knockouts, and was able to win the game and match after drawing Magnezones out of my prizes.

It isn't very often that there is a situation where the fact that an Ace Spec (or a one-of tech) is prized loses a player a game. They could've had an easier victory had those cards not been prized, but rarely is there a combination of prizes cards that cannot be played around by a skilled player.

 

[losjackal]

As this post is lengthy enough as is, I shall hold off weighing in general over my own ideas and views upon this.

[DEL]I wish you did weigh in. Because I can't see anything in the post above other than criticizing what I said across several posts.[/DEL] I see your followup. Good.


Vaporeon's suggestion was clever, but too hard of a mechanic to keep track of, given the cards yes in the format now and certainly future recovery cards we will have. I don' t get why you felt like defending it, when other proposals like a simple counter can more easily keep track of how many prizes have been taken.

As for the small problem thing, after discussion I came around to saying I was in support of the idea. But let's also acknowledge the other mechanics that will still exist that can take the player out of the game from the very beginning due to "random chance" as the OP said.

Finally, your statements about prizes balancing a deck, that wasn't my point. The point is, if someone knows that all 60 cards are available, they can cut down on the quantity of a certain card and fit other things in. Like a 1-1 line of a bench sitter instead of 2-2. Or 3 Darkrai instead of 4. With those extra slots, a Tier 1 deck with 60 cards in play could emerge as BDIF. This isn't worth arguing about...just an observation of how deck construction would change.

I am liking the idea of replacing Prizes by having one physical card from the Pokémon (e.g. Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2) set aside to "count" how many points ("Prizes") your opponent has earned, and first to six wins.

I'd like to try to appreciate why you'd design it this way, instead of some kind of counter. Is it to have "proof" of prizes being taken? Like, a die counting from 1-6 is too easy to manipulate? Because my first though is that the current mechanism suffers the same problem....if the opponent snatches away a prize when I'm not looking, I can't "prove" it was there. All I can do is count my discard pile to see how many Pokémon are in there. And that would be the same kind of evidence to support the counter.

 

[DragonairMaster8]

So we're now looking to remove one of the most skillful aspects of the game?

The ability to play with the knowledge that you don't have access to certain cards should alter the way you play the game, and adds a dimension to the game that is unique from other games.

I cannot remember a single time in the past 14 years that I was "completely removed from the game" due to my prizes.

It's probably even worse for the game, as it makes the opening flip even more important than it is now. If I go first, and am guaranteed, 100% of the time, to have my deck run completely smoothly due to no prize issues...where is the skill?

Prizes are a necessary part of the game. It's what makes Pokemon...Pokemon.