Current State of the game… As seen by Jimmy Ballard
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KingGengar
New Member
Ok, I messed up. Take me away. How about Flint's Spirit then? You can put 2 Energy on 1 of your SP Pokemon
afstandopleren
New Member
Then Honch can still Donk....
DarthPika
New Member
My main problem against donks, and its a big one, is that it takes NO skill at all. Funny how our current rating system doesn't account for such wins. The stupid thing always assumes the more skilled player should win, and that if they lose they also should lose a boat load of points. Its REALLY unfair to lose 20 something points because you flip a coin and go second against a Mafail deck. Ya... that sure promotes good SoTG.... I do NOT want to lose 20+ points to some n00b who is playing for fun and thought it woudl be funny to use Machamp. How on earth is that fair? I have lost waaaaaaaaay to many points this year to donks. Unless I manage to t4 nats I probably won't make it to worlds because of it... So not only am I cheated out of a chance to have a good battle, but cheated out of a chance to play at worlds.
Just a clarification, I don't have anything against rush decks. I have a heck of a lot more respect for Kingdra and well buit G decks than I do Mafail. Why? Because there is a LOT more of a chance for me to come back from it then stupid champ.
Just a clarification, I don't have anything against rush decks. I have a heck of a lot more respect for Kingdra and well buit G decks than I do Mafail. Why? Because there is a LOT more of a chance for me to come back from it then stupid champ.
Zwittz
New Member
I think thats a great point jimmy. I hate people who play T1 decks because its true it takes no skill to run them and thats why I know you call them auto pilot decks.
I think you have a great solution to this problem with your idea of if you dont loose untill the end of your turn if you ran out of pokemon.:thumb:
I think you have a great solution to this problem with your idea of if you dont loose untill the end of your turn if you ran out of pokemon.:thumb:KingGengar
New Member
Well, since I play Champ, I'll disagree. When I play against these "noob" Machamp decks, I generally win. Why? (1) Unless I have a HORRENDOUS start, my deck is built to almost never be donked, not by mirror or any other. (2) My deck is built to WIN, not donk, although donk is part of it or else I wouldn't be playing it. (3) If the "noob" doesn't get his donk, he becomes bewildered in the mid-game.
At Southeast Regionals in Georgia, where we had 70 Masters, many skilled players, Champ won playing against Champ in the Final. These two players were not "noob" nor can they be considered that because they played Machamp. They won; they are winners; they are skilled players. You don't beat Sablehouse 2/3 in Top Cut with Champ unless you know what you're doing.
At Southeast Regionals in Georgia, where we had 70 Masters, many skilled players, Champ won playing against Champ in the Final. These two players were not "noob" nor can they be considered that because they played Machamp. They won; they are winners; they are skilled players. You don't beat Sablehouse 2/3 in Top Cut with Champ unless you know what you're doing.
Flaming Monkey
New Member
Some of the standard decks can be very broken. However, I enjoy playing them. T1 donking is most of the time very surprising. And in platinum rising rivals, more donking is here to come. I agree, they are extremely over powered and greatly stupid. Some people make anti donk decks. Donk decks lose against these PURE STRATEGY decks. If you are a skilled player, you can finally fight back. Having fun being over powered is one thing. Being WAY too stupefyingly good is another. Some of the counter decks are way too good. Maybe these will take over and delete donk decks. But, then, how would you have a come back on these?
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
Also, I do agree with KingGengar. Not all donk decks are for noobs. Most require skill. The ones that don't generally lose in the long-run. You just don't know what to expect.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
Also, I do agree with KingGengar. Not all donk decks are for noobs. Most require skill. The ones that don't generally lose in the long-run. You just don't know what to expect.
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Basic evolution
This is Darwin's theory at it's best evolve or become extinct, this is the state of the game, ya think I felt good at Regionals playin a big toolbox and running into 2 machamps and a mewtwo X (1st three rounds) thank god I beat one
any givin Sunday (or Saturday in this case) I'm afraid, this makes it an even playing field, no longer are we waiting for 10 games to come in with five minutes to go, we have forgone the classic good game for a sprinters game and speed kills I'm afraid but fear not ya'll gonna love it after rising rivals I can see three distinct possibilities out this sweetheart this is the set we've been waiting for, long overdue
and believe me you probably won't see the big un until it's too late
This is Darwin's theory at it's best evolve or become extinct, this is the state of the game, ya think I felt good at Regionals playin a big toolbox and running into 2 machamps and a mewtwo X (1st three rounds) thank god I beat one
any givin Sunday (or Saturday in this case) I'm afraid, this makes it an even playing field, no longer are we waiting for 10 games to come in with five minutes to go, we have forgone the classic good game for a sprinters game and speed kills I'm afraid but fear not ya'll gonna love it after rising rivals I can see three distinct possibilities out this sweetheart this is the set we've been waiting for, long overdue
and believe me you probably won't see the big un until it's too late
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KingGengar
New Member
New Shiftry and Weezing have possibilities, but the key will still be getting past the big chompers.
Rogue Archetype
Moderator <br> Contest Host
I don't know....
I'm thinking the topic is being discussed. It may not be headed in the direction that the original poster wanted, but, for the most part, people are on topic.
I thought the topic of discussion WAS the proponderance of T1 wins and how to curb them (so that more players would have an opportunity to play a "full game."
I understand that Jimmy's intent was NOT to discuss specific decks and "donking."
I understand that Jimmy's intent was to discuss creating a way that any format would allow for more playing time (beyond T1).
So, I fell inline with discussing the issue of ways to give players an opportunity to play beyond a T1.
Was this thread intended to be a peitition in support of Jimmy's suggestion?
I think that his suggestion isn't discussed as much as best 2 of 3 because more people seem to appreciate best 2 of 3 as a solution than changing the rulebook AND the gameplay with a end-of-turn-to-bench solution.
Best 2 of 3 does nothing in the way of changing the rules and it does give someone an opporutnity to overcome the T1 loss.
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KingGengar
New Member
I agree with Rogue Archetype. The thread ought to be allowed to follow logical conclusions. If some think that T1 donk is good, then that is fair game for discussion vs. those who don't. And, among those who would like to see some changes made to game-play, there should be various options such as 2/3 Swiss vs. "2nd chance."
I agree with Jimmy that something should be done to increase playing time and decrease T1 wins. At two states and 1 regionals, I judged the juniors. It's tough to watch a 7 yr old sit down, all excited to play, and see him stand up 1 minute later with a dazed look on his face as he realizes his game just ended before it really even began.
I think the idea of not being able to win on T1 until your opponent finishes their second turn makes sense. But, I'd be interested in seeing a discussion of the pros and cons of being allowed to use "playing down" powers if you draw that card and have to make it your active Pokemon for your turn.
Also, I assume that similar to a mulligan, a player starting with one Pokemon would have to show his hand to his opponent to show that he doesn't have another basic? But unlike a mulligan, when cards get shuffled back in, the opponent now knows what cards the player has.
And would a player be allowed to start with just one active Pokemon and hold the Uxie in his hand so he can use its powers vs. laying it down during set-up and losing the powers?
I think this should all be taken under consideration, because as Pokemon continues to grow, we don't want to lose younger players frustrated by 2 minute games, or their parents not wanting to take them to tournaments to face this scenario:
Rd1, T1 loss. Rd2, bye. Rd3, T1 loss, Rd4, 10 minute game.
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KingGengar
New Member
I think perhaps I can rename what this thread is about: attrition.
As Chuckles just stated, he laments that younger players may pass on playing Pokemon due to the short nature of some games. Well, let's examine that a bit: Are we playing Pokemon or Monopoly? I'm not being facetious... Monopoly is one of my least favorite games because it TAKES SO LONG! Now, I'm not saying that A=B, that Pokemon must be as short as Monopoly is long, or that others don't enjoy a long friendly game of anything. Heck, if I find myself in a good Pokemon shootout that lasts the entire 40 minutes, I'm glad... because I love Pokemon.
That said, I love Pokemon because I love Pokemon, not because games are long or short. If we have to cater to the tastes of one group of players (say, those who despise short games) then, to me, you have taken away a good portion of the game. Pokemon is more than just strategy, luck, and deck-building. It's nerves, excitement, and anxiety WONDERING if you're gonna get donked, or do a donking; then, delight when you don't get donked and you can settle into a game; OR, delight that you donked.
Pokemon's delights are many-fold. If the game has veered more to the donk side (Luke, use the force!), then that only means for this time period we are enjoying THAT aspect of Pokemon. The game changes as the cards change. Pokemon is not a living species. It is not an evolution of the game which cannot be reversed. You have to embrace the ethos of the times. Go with it!
So, if Pokemon loses youngsters due to the donk, then does this mean Pokemon is wrong or that youngsters don't have the right view of the game?
OK, that was controversial. But... let's say this: If it's the youth who suffer the most, and Pokemon is about the youngsters, then let's give the JUNIORS only the rule that you can't attack until your second turn, or that Swiss is 2/3. Do the Seniors require this? The Masters? Is this up for a vote? Is Pokemon the game a democracy? Who makes the rules?
I would be all for removing as much donk as possible in the Juniors, but I'm very much against it in Masters. Not sure about Seniors. Let the Masters have, at best, a 2/3 Swiss. It's a neat idea. But I can't stand the idea of allowing Bench setup on T1, or allowing a player who has no Pokemon to draw for another turn to "see if he can hobble to the next turn." This is "politically-correct" Pokemon, not Pokemon.
But, Juniors, yes.
As Chuckles just stated, he laments that younger players may pass on playing Pokemon due to the short nature of some games. Well, let's examine that a bit: Are we playing Pokemon or Monopoly? I'm not being facetious... Monopoly is one of my least favorite games because it TAKES SO LONG! Now, I'm not saying that A=B, that Pokemon must be as short as Monopoly is long, or that others don't enjoy a long friendly game of anything. Heck, if I find myself in a good Pokemon shootout that lasts the entire 40 minutes, I'm glad... because I love Pokemon.
That said, I love Pokemon because I love Pokemon, not because games are long or short. If we have to cater to the tastes of one group of players (say, those who despise short games) then, to me, you have taken away a good portion of the game. Pokemon is more than just strategy, luck, and deck-building. It's nerves, excitement, and anxiety WONDERING if you're gonna get donked, or do a donking; then, delight when you don't get donked and you can settle into a game; OR, delight that you donked.
Pokemon's delights are many-fold. If the game has veered more to the donk side (Luke, use the force!), then that only means for this time period we are enjoying THAT aspect of Pokemon. The game changes as the cards change. Pokemon is not a living species. It is not an evolution of the game which cannot be reversed. You have to embrace the ethos of the times. Go with it!
So, if Pokemon loses youngsters due to the donk, then does this mean Pokemon is wrong or that youngsters don't have the right view of the game?
OK, that was controversial. But... let's say this: If it's the youth who suffer the most, and Pokemon is about the youngsters, then let's give the JUNIORS only the rule that you can't attack until your second turn, or that Swiss is 2/3. Do the Seniors require this? The Masters? Is this up for a vote? Is Pokemon the game a democracy? Who makes the rules?
I would be all for removing as much donk as possible in the Juniors, but I'm very much against it in Masters. Not sure about Seniors. Let the Masters have, at best, a 2/3 Swiss. It's a neat idea. But I can't stand the idea of allowing Bench setup on T1, or allowing a player who has no Pokemon to draw for another turn to "see if he can hobble to the next turn." This is "politically-correct" Pokemon, not Pokemon.
But, Juniors, yes.
afstandopleren
New Member
Why stop Donks only in Juniors? WTBLEEP ARE YOU THINKING!? We, as older people should set a good example on how to play a good game while most of Seniors and Masters can't stop touching Donk cards. (If you play them, you are going to Donk with them. PERIOD)
I like this game as it gives fulfillment when your self thought up strategy involving hard to set up cards finally works. However, Donk cards are Powercreeps that keep screwing things up. Why do people complain about Donks? Because they are wrong. Again, if there was nothing wrong with the game, PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE COMPLAINING.
I like this game as it gives fulfillment when your self thought up strategy involving hard to set up cards finally works. However, Donk cards are Powercreeps that keep screwing things up. Why do people complain about Donks? Because they are wrong. Again, if there was nothing wrong with the game, PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE COMPLAINING.
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Varna
New Member
I'd love to get into a big argument over whether donks are good or not, but it's a topic that's been beat into the ground enough already and plenty of people have sufficiently explained why they are bad for the game already.Whether they take skill or not, donks are bad for the game.
Whether you enjoy them or not, donks are bad for the game.
End of story.
vanderbilt_grad
New Member
Actually I think that donks can theoretically be good for the game, but they clearly have a negative impact as well. With the format coming to favor donks the negatives are starting to really impact events more given the way we run them.
King Gengar, can I ask you a question ... I remember donking you at Ashville T1 going first. That was probably the least fun game all day long for me. What about you? You seemed a bit upset at the time.
KG started a lone Magikarp to my lone shiny Duskull. I won the coin flip and thus the game. KG had an Uxie in hand though and would have drawn some plus powers when he played it. Had we been using Jimmy's suggested rule change you would have had a chance to bench that uxie, get your plus power, and KO me back ... leaving me to try to respond. Wouldn't that have been more interesting?
King Gengar, can I ask you a question ... I remember donking you at Ashville T1 going first. That was probably the least fun game all day long for me. What about you? You seemed a bit upset at the time.
KG started a lone Magikarp to my lone shiny Duskull. I won the coin flip and thus the game. KG had an Uxie in hand though and would have drawn some plus powers when he played it. Had we been using Jimmy's suggested rule change you would have had a chance to bench that uxie, get your plus power, and KO me back ... leaving me to try to respond. Wouldn't that have been more interesting?
KingGengar
New Member
vandy: Sure! As I said, I enjoy the game in all its aspects: donk, no-donk, long game, short game. I'm not saying I was happy, BUT.... BUT.... I now *proudly* tell of the day that I experienced the absolute shortest game on record:
T1 Vandy: As he draws his card, he says, "Sorry Tom" - even before this, Tom has picked up the slip of paper and signed it (ok, maybe I did wait a bit).
Did I wish it never happened at the time? Yes. Now? It's part of the game, so I'm reasonable with perspective.
On a slightly-different tack, I've heard people complain about prizes ("all my stuff was in there"), superior decks ("Who can afford these cards?"), etc. This game RULES! The complaints come from my mouth also but I just wouldn't change it - for me, that's not Pokemon.
OK, back to donk- I think given the variety of donk available (Kingdra, Champ, Rampardos, Galactic, even Gengar in certain situations, or how about a surprise Absol out of the hand, or a Sableye vs a Duskull?), we really ought not be worrying that the game is too stilted, or biased in one way.
And yet, for all the hubbub, Galactic decks vs. Galactic decks is NOT a donk, and these are everywhere, and getting better. Blaziken is a good deck that few people try. GG is viable and won a Regionals. None of these are truly "donk" although, in every case, there is a possibility of it.
T1 Vandy: As he draws his card, he says, "Sorry Tom" - even before this, Tom has picked up the slip of paper and signed it (ok, maybe I did wait a bit).
Did I wish it never happened at the time? Yes. Now? It's part of the game, so I'm reasonable with perspective.
On a slightly-different tack, I've heard people complain about prizes ("all my stuff was in there"), superior decks ("Who can afford these cards?"), etc. This game RULES! The complaints come from my mouth also but I just wouldn't change it - for me, that's not Pokemon.
OK, back to donk- I think given the variety of donk available (Kingdra, Champ, Rampardos, Galactic, even Gengar in certain situations, or how about a surprise Absol out of the hand, or a Sableye vs a Duskull?), we really ought not be worrying that the game is too stilted, or biased in one way.
And yet, for all the hubbub, Galactic decks vs. Galactic decks is NOT a donk, and these are everywhere, and getting better. Blaziken is a good deck that few people try. GG is viable and won a Regionals. None of these are truly "donk" although, in every case, there is a possibility of it.
bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
There are also a fair share of decks that are good in a vacuum (Torterra amongst them), but are terrible against the format, and not necessarily because of the donk factor. I firmly believe that Torterra has good matchups against both Machamp and Kingdra. It just autoloses to Dialga and Dusknoir (which has strangely disappeared after dominating the first half of the format).
KingGengar
New Member
Magnezone is another example of a great non-donk deck, one which played well at Battle Roads (Magnevire).