Dialgachomp; Galactic Domination.

[Chanman]

Nice article man, really. Though, I find it funny that you said your build was based on consistency and you only run 2 Dialga G, 2 collector, and 3 call. Call me crazy, but if the basis of you build was consistency, wouldn't it be more like 3 Dialga, 2 collector, 4 call?

For what it's worth, this is my main deck as well and I only run 2 Dialga G. I'm not saying 3 is bad, but I will say those that keep saying you need 3 probably don't have much experience with the deck. Nothing worse than 2 dead draws late game when you need that warp energy and you get Dialga twice. Now, that's not saying you can't be experienced and run 3, that just means if you've played the deck much AT ALL, you know that 2 or 3 is preference and really doesn't affect consistency that much.

As for the Machamp match up, I think every scenario (except Pooka's report b/c it was real) is ridiculous. So, Dialga has to go first every time? If not, what is the match up like then? If Dialga goes second and gets the lock, is it an auto loss for Machamp? Because, if a coin flip is 50/50 and the matchup depends on who wins the toss, the match up will always be 50/50. If Dialga has a bad match up by going first but has an infinitely better match up going second, then Dialga has the net advantage. Both decks are "gimmick" decks, but only one has the ability to take out the other's "gimmick," that being Toxocroak G stopping take out, it seems to me that Dialga has the better match up. Especially since Toxicroak can be Poketurned and healed, and can also be healed by Garchomp. Don't misconstrue that to mean it is any easy match up, or to say its not 50/50, but I am saying that I think the matchup analysis is fair in the article.

And, I've slept since college and didn't pay NEAR as good of attention in stats as I wish I had, but I'm pretty sure 3 coin flips is 12.5% for 3 heads.

All probably outcomes:
hhh
hht
hth
thh
htt
tht
tth
ttt

Only 1 is all heads, thus it is 1/8=12.5%

And, just to continue the longest post ever, I just looked over that Machamp list. No Bebe? I've never played Machamp, but that just doesn't seem to follow the "laws" of consistency. Probability says you won't start with a Collector, which means you won't get to use Communication. There is only a 27% chance you start with 1 in hand, 35% you start with one or top deck one. So, that means 65% of the time, this deck doesn't set up. Now, that is cheap, shoddy math that doesn't account for other ways of drawing into it (double poke drawer start, uxie, Pokedex). But, we also assumed Uxie was sprayed T1, which isn't likely only running two. But, I will say that I started with a spray in my hand 3 times in 4 matches at BR and only ran 2. Probable and consistent? No. The moral of the story is, that scenario is ridiculous and that list seems pretty easy to get around. If there is ever 1 turn where Machamp doesn't get out, Deafen shuts that list down with no Bebe. Yet, somehow, that list beat the monkey crap out of Dialga in that scenario.

You are aiming to get T1 Champ-hence the unown Rs and trainers and heavy uxie count. But this isn't about machamp. It's about the matchup. His list dosen't have the consistancy to beat a machamp. Of course my list varies with others, but I like a deck that goes all out. DialgaChomp is definitely a good deck-I'm even using it. But the deck definitely has problems with Machamp. I wouldn't devote so much to a counter to your only bad matchup-but thats just me.

Deck is good-list has problems with Machamp. Definitely a contender

EDIT: The list was made quickly reflecting an MD-ON format. Also, I was going to do theorymon if Machamp went first-but got lazy. I knew people would have a problem with Dialga going first-but if I did that, how realistic would it be to get toxi/tank/stadium/gain/energy/lucario/spray? unlikely. Of course, these are just my opinions. It could come to a flip of a coin. But with dce, you can fight with rage. I didn't add bebes-but they would be added in easily. The lists definitely couldve been better, but we are definitely not like Pooka, lol

 

[Jigsaw]

Even without that stuff of toxicroak,
You can always Deafen your opponents machops to death (or make a lot of time while deafening) 3-4 deafen turns becames 15-20 minutes of gameplay, OR guard your stupid ballon (driftblim FB) after 3 take outs and build the coward strategy of healing breath with warp energy while spreading with shadow ball, BALLONS shall take worlds =P



oh sorry i didn't mean to be a jerk, i didn't pay attention to the MD-ON point, surely the match up goes better for machamp in that case, but Dialga's consistency can afford it

 

[Sin Sirus]

i have a question about the matchups? why did make the deck MD-on if the matchups werent? your jumpluff has a claydol in the list and your playing against a gyrados for one of the matchups, i really dont think it will get much play after the format change because it loses some good cards. so how will these matchups help people in understanding dialgachomp after the season rotation?

 

[MattPL]

Not many Machamp Lv X decks do run Machamp Lv X

Well it's a good thing to know that the name is only to intimidate people.

I don't think I know everything, I just know this deck and its matchups pretty well.

Supposebly Florida is the hardest state, my metagame is definately not bad. Strong language for a childrens website.

Machamp normally Uxies for 5-7. Without the Uxie, how can they burn more trainer cards? You can't one shot me and I one shot you back. I recover faster than you. I win. That's how it works. Machamp will be popular at brs, but it will die because again all of its stage 2 matchups are bad and now that it lost claydol, it relies on uxie to do nearly everything.

Are you kidding? Without Claydol, ANY stage 2 deck fails to set up quickly enough against an SP deck. So far, this hasn't stopped a lot of people from trying to run Machamp.

And yes, cards like Pokedex, Pokedrawer +, and Victory Medal can cycle through your deck very quickly. And in your above Prize Exchange, you showed that Dialga gets knocked out, so deafen isn't going to happen.

 

[jeffrey123]

Nice article man, really. Though, I find it funny that you said your build was based on consistency and you only run 2 Dialga G, 2 collector, and 3 call. Call me crazy, but if the basis of you build was consistency, wouldn't it be more like 3 Dialga, 2 collector, 4 call?

For what it's worth, this is my main deck as well and I only run 2 Dialga G. I'm not saying 3 is bad, but I will say those that keep saying you need 3 probably don't have much experience with the deck. Nothing worse than 2 dead draws late game when you need that warp energy and you get Dialga twice. Now, that's not saying you can't be experienced and run 3, that just means if you've played the deck much AT ALL, you know that 2 or 3 is preference and really doesn't affect consistency that much.

As for the Machamp match up, I think every scenario (except Pooka's report b/c it was real) is ridiculous. So, Dialga has to go first every time? If not, what is the match up like then? If Dialga goes second and gets the lock, is it an auto loss for Machamp? Because, if a coin flip is 50/50 and the matchup depends on who wins the toss, the match up will always be 50/50. If Dialga has a bad match up by going first but has an infinitely better match up going second, then Dialga has the net advantage. Both decks are "gimmick" decks, but only one has the ability to take out the other's "gimmick," that being Toxocroak G stopping take out, it seems to me that Dialga has the better match up. Especially since Toxicroak can be Poketurned and healed, and can also be healed by Garchomp. Don't misconstrue that to mean it is any easy match up, or to say its not 50/50, but I am saying that I think the matchup analysis is fair in the article.

And, I've slept since college and didn't pay NEAR as good of attention in stats as I wish I had, but I'm pretty sure 3 coin flips is 12.5% for 3 heads.

All probably outcomes:
hhh
hht
hth
thh
htt
tht
tth
ttt

Only 1 is all heads, thus it is 1/8=12.5%

And, just to continue the longest post ever, I just looked over that Machamp list. No Bebe? I've never played Machamp, but that just doesn't seem to follow the "laws" of consistency. Probability says you won't start with a Collector, which means you won't get to use Communication. There is only a 27% chance you start with 1 in hand, 35% you start with one or top deck one. So, that means 65% of the time, this deck doesn't set up. Now, that is cheap, shoddy math that doesn't account for other ways of drawing into it (double poke drawer start, uxie, Pokedex). But, we also assumed Uxie was sprayed T1, which isn't likely only running two. But, I will say that I started with a spray in my hand 3 times in 4 matches at BR and only ran 2. Probable and consistent? No. The moral of the story is, that scenario is ridiculous and that list seems pretty easy to get around. If there is ever 1 turn where Machamp doesn't get out, Deafen shuts that list down with no Bebe. Yet, somehow, that list beat the monkey crap out of Dialga in that scenario.

Nice post! I agree completely with what you are saying. I guess the word was "well rounded." I find that if you can constantly grab energy with Cyrus' Conspiracy your day becomes that much better, well at least for me anyways because it seems that I always prize the cards that I need the most. I spent close to 9 hours on the article and I couldn't believe all the bashing by Machamp players, but i'll just stop addressing them because the arguments are close to ridiculous! I mean. I didn't even look at his list, but I laughed out loud when you said no Bebe's, how does he stand a chance besides godhanding me? Anyone can theorymon yes, but I am actually talking about my games that are real at states and cities. If I don't play you on redshark, you think I do not trust my list? LOL, maybe it's because you're a random and I don't feel like wasting my time only so that you can make an excuse. Anyways, great rate.

Amazing article Kevin. Very nice article for a DialgaChomp deck. In fact, this deck has one very good deck list that can actually make it stand out very well in an MD-on season. I also mean that this is pretty much the perfect DialgaChomp list for next format. You also explained the techs and matchups very well too. In fact, I think I know now what to do against other decks using it.

Once again, great article Kevin! I really did enjoy reading this article. In fact, this article will help many players next season if they want to build a DialgaChomp deck.:thumb:

Thank you very much JPNGallade! Gratz on T64 @ Nats! I hope this article will help alot of players, new and old.

You are aiming to get T1 Champ-hence the unown Rs and trainers and heavy uxie count. But this isn't about machamp. It's about the matchup. His list dosen't have the consistancy to beat a machamp. Of course my list varies with others, but I like a deck that goes all out. DialgaChomp is definitely a good deck-I'm even using it. But the deck definitely has problems with Machamp. I wouldn't devote so much to a counter to your only bad matchup-but thats just me.

Deck is good-list has problems with Machamp. Definitely a contender

EDIT: The list was made quickly reflecting an MD-ON format. Also, I was going to do theorymon if Machamp went first-but got lazy. I knew people would have a problem with Dialga going first-but if I did that, how realistic would it be to get toxi/tank/stadium/gain/energy/lucario/spray? unlikely. Of course, these are just my opinions. It could come to a flip of a coin. But with dce, you can fight with rage. I didn't add bebes-but they would be added in easily. The lists definitely couldve been better, but we are definitely not like Pooka, lol

I refuse to autoloss to any deck, this is why I added Toxicroak G. I have played Dialgachomp with no call, you just need to go heavy with the collector. Not to say that this list is MY exact list, but it's a mere SKELETON for newer players. I even wrote out the techs and everything. I would rather write a skeleton list than my own anyways, since my list comes down to preference. If My list can't beat machamp, then why am I 6/0 against it at cities and states? Rage? Are you kidding me? How long does that take to set-up? 3 turns? Nobody knows Pooka's list, and his is from last format, so i'll have you know that instead of toxitank he can fit unown G and other cards. It wasn't easy fitting Toxitank at all.

Even without that stuff of toxicroak,
You can always Deafen your opponents machops to death (or make a lot of time while deafening) 3-4 deafen turns becames 15-20 minutes of gameplay, OR guard your stupid ballon (driftblim FB) after 3 take outs and build the coward strategy of healing breath with warp energy while spreading with shadow ball, BALLONS shall take worlds =P



oh sorry i didn't mean to be a jerk, i didn't pay attention to the MD-ON point, surely the match up goes better for machamp in that case, but Dialga's consistency can afford it

You're not being a jerk lol. Drifblim really is an incredible card, I have him in my Dialgachomp for 'Roads. It really all depends on the coin flip, and LUCK.

i have a question about the matchups? why did make the deck MD-on if the matchups werent? your jumpluff has a claydol in the list and your playing against a gyrados for one of the matchups, i really dont think it will get much play after the format change because it loses some good cards. so how will these matchups help people in understanding dialgachomp after the season rotation?

No, my Jumpluff does not have a Claydol in it. Gyarados will still be played this year, do not worry. If you want, I can make more matchups. Any that you had in mind? :wink:

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

You can handle one to two Machamps with no Unown G no sweat.

It's not easy for SP, but really to assume "hurp durr aggro champ beats SP" shows a lack of a solid playtesting pool.

If you run the fast trainer engine you all are freaking out over, you literally scoop to the first sprayed Uxie drop if you can't get off another.

If drop the Lv. X to kill the Toxicroak, you're a bat drop and a D Rush from getting counter-KOed, and being down two machamps (which is a large resource investment).

TL;DR - it's no autowin for either deck, people on the 'gym love to argue with bad theorymon, who gets to go second is a bigger factor than anyone's admitted.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Hey, isn't Alex2k that guy the thought Typhlosion was BDIF?

 

[jeffrey123]

Hey, isn't Alex2k that guy the thought Typhlosion was BDIF?

Hahaha, good times.

It's funny because I spent close to 9 hours on this article, and this is what I have to put up with. Look at your signature...

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Wormadam? I can't have fun at league, huh? I'm not insulting your article, I'm saying your logic in regards to the Champ matchup is off. Matter of fact, I liked reading your tourney reports. I also enjoyed this article, but really, Machamp is serious trouble for you.

 

[LOLZ]

Dialgachomp should be able to beat Machamp at least 70% of the time. Machamp has no longer has Claydol to get set up, so Dialgachomp in classic sp fashion should be able to power sprey set ups while setting up uxie lv x/lucario/crobat for when Dialgachomps first dialga is ko'ed, by which time Dialgachomp should be ahead on prizes. However there is the chance of a t1 champ (if champ went 2nd) which could put dialgachomp at a major disadvantage.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

70%? That's insane. With the right engine, Machamp will get set up 80% of the time assuming it goes second. And it's no guarantee that you'll get the turn one deafen. DChomp has a chance, but you can't expect to win against Machamp.

EDIT: Do you guys realize what you're saying? That's like me saying Donphan is auto-win vs. G-dos. No. Not happening.

ANOTHER EDIT: This even coming from someone who is waiting for a DGX in the mail so he can play D-Chomp.

 

[baby mario]

Machamp is not a silver bullet vs SP

Speed Machamp will often use a whole lot of its resources to get a T1 Champ (especially with no Claydol). That's fine if you donk there and then. If you don't, you'll take 2-3 Prizes, but when Champ goes down the deck is often burnt out, can't use Trainers, and finds its Uxies being Sprayed.

I'd put the match up at around 50-50 in this format.

MD on, Dialga loses Unown G, but Champ loses Claydol and Roseanne (always good in low Energy decks). I can't see the match up being more favourable for Champ than it is now. Maybe even a little less as Toxitank can make up somewhat for losing Unown G.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

The entire argument is irrelevant for both sides, considering we don't even have all our sets yet. I understand the article is MD-on for right now, but still, we'll have to wait and see. I belive that Machamp can be worked on and made to consistently set up. The problem is, everything's theorymon right now.

 

[Happiny13]

Well I think the deck will be top tier for cities, but if people decide to play lost remover when it comes out then dialga becomes as much of a tank deck as Luxchomp is. Sure it's a trainer so you can deafen it, but while you are deafening for ten the opponent will be hitting you for more and saving lost removers for when you break the lock to discard all of your special metals. Energy Exchange Unit is what will make this deck top tier next format. Dialgachomp will be overshadowed by Luxchomp like it was last format without it. The deck requires a lot of thought as every play will effect the outcome of the game. Also, with no claydol, you can break the lock against a Stage 2 deck without them exploding on you like Jumpluff did.

The matchups in general are correct at being around 50-50. The Dialgachomp's even matchups mean that you have to outplay your opponent consistently to win with Dialgachomp. I'm not sure about the machamp matchup though. A 3-1 dialga has enough chance to deafen T1 so Machamp never gets a Machamp out to be worried. Besides if you get a spray then one knockout on machamp should be enough for the matchup as a Stage 2 deck without Claydol won't go very far after the first one is knocked out. Gyarados is a hard matchup that can be won a number of ways. It really depends on a number of things.

I really think 3-1 Dialga is the best line. 3 Collector is worth it as it is the next best thing to getting a cyrus in hand. And power spray is way too important in matchups to be at 2. And I don't think you have enough switching cards as 2 warp will not be enough to keep a Dialga out with 2 Special metals. And I guess stadium choice is a playstyle choice. But one thing that really caught my eyes was Bertha's Warmth. That card can win you the game in some cases. However, it will probably become one of those cards that is good in theory, but I will never be able to fit in my deck.
Good article.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

I think Happiny just proved my point. We will see how good it is after we get our sets. However, I still think Champ is a hard match.
EDIT: And I don't think Chmap is a "Silver bullet". I think any good Champ player will win against an SP player of the same skill.

 

[renfield89]

Solid article. A little biased, but I would expect 0 articles to be without some bias. After all, we like our authors to have some faith in their decks =P

Slight critiques:
I wouldn't play less than 3 Collector and 4 Call energy, as a preference. I refuse to write reports that read anywhere, "Got a RARE poor start for my top-notch decklist! Scrub only won because my hand was unplayable!" Yeah, it may be a bit unneeded into the end game, but you don't get to the end game without a solid start versus credible opponents.

And Machamp is an SP counter. The deck is built to beat basic Pokemon first and foremost, whether or not it beats other decks. I don't care how you slice it; evenly matched opponent's and evenly matched decklists will result in Machamp victories some majority of the time. The margin may vary, but that majority will be with Machamp. 'Take Out' alone, plus "Warp" cards, plus "Warp" powers give the Machamp player an obvious advantage, in addition to Machamp X's and Uxie X's OHKO potential on Toxicroak G PL.
A Guarded Diagla G Lv.X was the decks greatest tool versus Machamp, with Special Metals and Garchomp Healing, energy removal potential, and eliminating 'No Guard.' DialgaChomp's best weapon is gone. Machamp loses Claydol significantly, but that doesn't hinder its matchup offensively like the loss of a Guarded DGX.
DialgaChomp is now the underdog.

 

[jeffrey123]

Well I think the deck will be top tier for cities, but if people decide to play lost remover when it comes out then dialga becomes as much of a tank deck as Luxchomp is. Sure it's a trainer so you can deafen it, but while you are deafening for ten the opponent will be hitting you for more and saving lost removers for when you break the lock to discard all of your special metals. Energy Exchange Unit is what will make this deck top tier next format. Dialgachomp will be overshadowed by Luxchomp like it was last format without it. The deck requires a lot of thought as every play will effect the outcome of the game. Also, with no claydol, you can break the lock against a Stage 2 deck without them exploding on you like Jumpluff did.

The matchups in general are correct at being around 50-50. The Dialgachomp's even matchups mean that you have to outplay your opponent consistently to win with Dialgachomp. I'm not sure about the machamp matchup though. A 3-1 dialga has enough chance to deafen T1 so Machamp never gets a Machamp out to be worried. Besides if you get a spray then one knockout on machamp should be enough for the matchup as a Stage 2 deck without Claydol won't go very far after the first one is knocked out. Gyarados is a hard matchup that can be won a number of ways. It really depends on a number of things.

I really think 3-1 Dialga is the best line. 3 Collector is worth it as it is the next best thing to getting a cyrus in hand. And power spray is way too important in matchups to be at 2. And I don't think you have enough switching cards as 2 warp will not be enough to keep a Dialga out with 2 Special metals. And I guess stadium choice is a playstyle choice. But one thing that really caught my eyes was Bertha's Warmth. That card can win you the game in some cases.

Agree. The deck isn't easy to play at all is imo is the hardest SP deck to play, just because one decision can cost you the matchup. The list is more of a skeleton, not my list. My list is quite different, although I would like to argue about 3-1. Dialga is a great card, but can be a dead draw, especially when you already draw into your special metals early and attach them. Dead draws can hurt this deck, that's why I played 2-1 over it. I personally like 2-1. I never said that the list was perfect but I tried to fit in toxitank as well. Without toxitank, this deck WILL autoloss to Machamp, that's a guarantee.

Solid article. A little biased, but I would expect 0 articles to be without some bias. After all, we like our authors to have some faith in their decks =P

Slight critiques:
I wouldn't play less than 3 Collector and 4 Call energy, as a preference. I refuse to write reports that read anywhere, "Got a RARE poor start for my top-notch decklist! Scrub only won because my hand was unplayable!" Yeah, it may be a bit unneeded into the end game, but you don't get to the end game without a solid start versus credible opponents.

And Machamp is an SP counter. The deck is built to beat basic Pokemon first and foremost, whether or not it beats other decks. I don't care how you slice it; evenly matched opponent's and evenly matched decklists will result in Machamp victories some majority of the time. The margin may vary, but that majority will be with Machamp. 'Take Out' alone, plus "Warp" cards, plus "Warp" powers give the Machamp player an obvious advantage, in addition to Machamp X's and Uxie X's OHKO potential on Toxicroak G PL.
A Guarded Diagla G Lv.X was the decks greatest tool versus Machamp, with Special Metals and Garchomp Healing, energy removal potential, and eliminating 'No Guard.' DialgaChomp's best weapon is gone. Machamp loses Claydol significantly, but that doesn't hinder its matchup offensively like the loss of a Guarded DGX.
DialgaChomp is now the underdog.

I tried to not be biased as much as possible but I do love this deck. 4 Call is great but it also can be a dead draw as well, which hurts the decks overall consistency. Collector can also turn into a dead draw, especially late game. Yeah Machamp's great sure, but even as a counter I still disagree about it completely dominating. It's way easier for me to setup than Machamp, and on a solid skill base it would still take luck and coin flips for the Machamp player to win if they both get the same average start.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

I agree that it is one of the hardest decks to play. If you are good enough, you can win against Machamp. However, I'm talking about the deck, not the player. I agree with renfield completely.

MOAR EDITZ: All this theorymon makes mah head hurt.....Anyways, it seemes neither one of us can really convince the other of anything, so I'm not really going to discuss it anymore. It's pointless.

 

[COOL TRAINER D]

I like this article and I learned a bit.

However, in my opinion, this is not really front-page worthy.

You claim to be going for consistency, but then only run 3 Call Energies, 3 DCEs, what's up with that? That's not consistent. Sure, late game Call is pretty dead draw but you have colorless requirements and it's an energy. It's not THAT dead of a draw. On the contrary late game topdecking a DCE is game breaking, so where's the consistency here? The only consistency is, on account of the insanely high energy count, you're going to be getting one energy in your hand every single game. Probably two, and sometimes three! That's not going to hep you at all.

Running 2 Dialga G is not consistent at all; it would be one thing if you ran 2-2 but you've only got 3 Dialga Gs in the whole deck. To claim consistency you're really going to need Dialga G card count at 4, and if you're going for T1 deafen, you'll need 3 Dialga G. There's nothing inherently wrong with running 2 Dialga G in DialgaChomp, but when you're claiming to get T1 Deafen, there is something seriously wrong here.

Another bat would really help; you can't count on flash biting five or even four times in a game with only one bat because you'll most likely be PokeTurning other pokemon as well.

Anyways, I did like the article. I enjoyed reading it and I learned a bit. I hadn't even fathomed Drifblim FB getting played ever, and I had completely forgot about toxitank countering machamp. However, I think there will be a new style of Machamp before serious tournament play next season: Donphan Machamp double Primes, and then you won't really need to dedicate five spots to counter Machamp.

In any case, well done, thanks for the read.

 

[DonphanAtoZ]

Just remembered that Lost Remover won't be a HUGE threat, because it's blocked by deafen. And yes, DG can beat Champ, however, I don't think 1 Toxicroak G is going to do any good. You need two to really 2 to make a game out of it.