Do we spend too much time worrying about deckbuilding?

[Shen]

^ I thought of that when I was typing, actually. Lol. But the decks that ran Cessation Crystal usually didn't need Windstorm themselves... Gengar needs Unown G for the mirror >_> Very legit point for half the power using decks back then, though.

@Baby Mario: I'll agree you do have me in most of those arguments, but I'm not so sure that if Gengar weren't so popular that every deck would be running at least 1 Unown G. Maybe. In many of those cases, you simply need 1 Unown G, and many decks CAN cope with just 1 Unown G. Given the utility of Unown G and the favorable match-ups against Gengar for some decks, they might be running Unown G with or without Gengar out there. I personally wouldn't be comfortable only running 1 Unown G in a deck with so many powers on the field at a given time, such as Beedrill. In any other match-up besides Gengar, I'd be fine with just 1.

IMO, any deck anticipating the metagame needs to dedicate the most deck space to particularly their Gengar match-up if the rest of their match-ups aren't extremely unfavorable.

 

[afstandopleren]

I have to say that I always laugh my heart out when people give the factors that are involved percentages. How can luck be such a small factor when half the meta will usually end up in Heads or Tails....or none at all thanks to Sableye and Special Dark.

And sure, Unown G helps a lot, but may I remind you that Unown G has only been a real key card in every deck since Stormfront? Just like Call gennerally has become. First the fear of Machamp screwing you (smart players played Grass vs Kingdra) over slowly changed to Gengar screwing your Claydols and key Power users over so that you can't do jack. It doesn't help that many, many cards can KO 70HP(Porygon2) and 80HP(Claydol) Pokes that you depend on to get going with Crobat G. Got a bad hand? That's a free and easy win for your opponent.

And back to Fainting Spell. There are only a freaking handful of things that can get by it. And guess what, all of them are a long shot. First of all, you have cards that usually do too much or too little damage to KO Gengar with Shuppet or Uxie and second, Special Conditions don't work with Nidoqueern. Teching Dialga G LV.X or Ampharos PL just for that is silly. And last time I checked, Gengar can also be Unown G'd, meaning it can't be KO'd with Deep Balance and stuff.

Now you may think I'm whining about cards again, but if you don't see the issues that cards like those mentioned bring to the game, you might as well be blind.

 

[dkosturk]

As a new player, deckbuilding has helped me to better understand the game. It becomes more fun to study every card trying to find the synergys that produce a winning deck. Not only have I been able to learn about all the cards out there I also begin to develop the strategy necessary to play them. Even more fun is taking them to league and playing them to see how they fare.
I think that more time spent on deckbuilding allows for a better understanding of the straegy necessary to win. More time playing allows for a better understanding of the strategy necessary not to lose.
Most unfortunately for me, because my skill is close to nonexistant luck becomes the basis for my games - my opponents bad luck or my good luck.
Also, I have bult a few decks and handed them off to my granddaughter with a basic explanation on how to use them and she plays them better than me.

 

[Meesie6x6]

I have to say that I always laugh my heart out when people give the factors that are involved percentages. How can luck be such a small factor when half the meta will usually end up in Heads or Tails....or none at all thanks to Sableye and Special Dark.

And sure, Unown G helps a lot, but may I remind you that Unown G has only been a real key card in every deck since Stormfront? Just like Call gennerally has become. First the fear of Machamp screwing you (smart players played Grass vs Kingdra) over slowly changed to Gengar screwing your Claydols and key Power users over so that you can't do jack. It doesn't help that many, many cards can KO 70HP(Porygon2) and 80HP(Claydol) Pokes that you depend on to get going with Crobat G. Got a bad hand? That's a free and easy win for your opponent.

And back to Fainting Spell. There are only a freaking handful of things that can get by it. And guess what, all of them are a long shot. First of all, you have cards that usually do too much or too little damage to KO Gengar with Shuppet or Uxie and second, Special Conditions don't work with Nidoqueern. Teching Dialga G LV.X or Ampharos PL just for that is silly. And last time I checked, Gengar can also be Unown G'd, meaning it can't be KO'd with Deep Balance and stuff.

Now you may think I'm whining about cards again, but if you don't see the issues that cards like those mentioned bring to the game, you might as well be blind.

Are you serious?

if this game was 70/90 % luck, there wouldn't be people with a 24-1, 23-2 or 24-4 record

when half the meta will usually end up in Heads or Tails....

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

This made me ROFL, there are so many decks that play no flip cards at all:
Kingdra (tho sometimes SSU is used)
Beedril (tho sometimes SSU is used)
Flygon (except Vibrava)
Gardevoir (except Ralts)
SP decks (tho sometimes Promocroak is used, but that is mostly just a non existing factor. Dialga G is a bit based on coin flips (i agree this can be considered a flip card))
Gyarados (tho MOST time SSU is used)

Got a bad hand? That's a free and easy win for your opponent.

:nonono::nonono::nonono:

That's why people play 4 Roseanne, 4 Bebe/cyrus, 1 Luxury, 1 Chatot/Pachi/Sableye, AT LEAST 1 Uxie (most times 2)
I don't say you won't get bad start but with these cards you can still fight back.:thumb:

This format it is pretty hard to play around fainting spel, but most decks can just KO gengar, because people still FLIPP TAILS, and even if they flip heads, most deck have such good recovery that it doesn't realy matter (3+ energy needing stage2's have a serious problem with fainting spel (except Flygon))

Unown G still helps EVEN with Relincant ( just don't play more than 2 tools and stadiums at the same time (1 is very nice))

Teching Dialga G LV.X or Ampharos PL just for that is silly.

NOT always, SP decks can easily tech Dialga G lv X and some evolution decks can do that too, Ampharos is not always silly, in some decks cough*Kingdra*cough it is very effective. Also Dusknoir DP is also a good tech against Nidoqueen and other decks.

 

[SLOW DECK]

Deck Building and Playing is one in the same thing. A great player is always a great deck builder. They know why every card is in "their" deck. The list will match there play style and pace that they want to play the game at.

Pace and Speed, I had a speed Gengar build, then I realized that Gengar is probably better played reactively, not aggresively. With that the list changed to match the pace that I wanted to play with. (T1 Gengar wasn't really needed, thus the speed of set up could be toned down) Anyhow a deck builder and player will understand a deck, and how they will want to play it, and have the build match that pace.

If you give a "set up" deck to a speed player, they just want to go aggressive, take chances, and the deck will sputter. If you give a speed/aggro build to a "set up" player, they migth not hit the accelarator hard enough to give the deck the best chance.

Anyhow a good player will be at one with his deck, know why every cards is in there, and what every option in the deck is. (Zen Master quote)

 

[afstandopleren]

Are you serious?

You and I are on the opposites of playing. You win all the time and are lucky with draws and flips and I'm not. I'm not expecting you to understand my sarcastic post. May I remind you that even with a insane consistent deck, you can have bad starts? And nothing can save you from being donked by a Sableye if you are stuck with an Unown. Not that I should bother explaining further for obvious reasons.

 

[Shen]

Are you serious?
This made me ROFL, there are so many decks that play no flip cards at all:
Kingdra (tho sometimes SSU is used)
Beedril (tho sometimes SSU is used)
Flygon (except Vibrava)
Gardevoir (except Ralts)
SP decks (tho sometimes Promocroak is used, but that is mostly just a non existing factor. Dialga G is a bit based on coin flips (i agree this can be considered a flip card))
Gyarados (tho MOST time SSU is used)

I think he's talking about who goes first. The player going second has the chance to Candy up to a Stage 2 and begin their assault as early as the first turn, depending on who actually goes first. Out of the decks you mentioned, I think SP, Beedrill, and Kingdra all get an advantage by going second.

 

[Mathorn1]

Deck Building and Playing is one in the same thing. A great player is always a great deck builder. They know why every card is in "their" deck. The list will match there play style and pace that they want to play the game at.

Pace and Speed, I had a speed Gengar build, then I realized that Gengar is probably better played reactively, not aggresively. With that the list changed to match the pace that I wanted to play with. (T1 Gengar wasn't really needed, thus the speed of set up could be toned down) Anyhow a deck builder and player will understand a deck, and how they will want to play it, and have the build match that pace.

If you give a "set up" deck to a speed player, they just want to go aggressive, take chances, and the deck will sputter. If you give a speed/aggro build to a "set up" player, they migth not hit the accelarator hard enough to give the deck the best chance.

Anyhow a good player will be at one with his deck, know why every cards is in there, and what every option in the deck is. (Zen Master quote)

I actually have to disagree with you on that one Rob, at least for me personally I generally do better with other peoples decks than my own. Basically whenever I run Jimmy's or Flint's decks I tend to at least top cut or better. The few instances that decks were my own were a complete disaster. I think some people are players and other are deck builders, sometimes they go hand in hand but not always.

 

[Ariadosman]

You and I are on the opposites of playing. You win all the time and are lucky with draws and flips and I'm not. I'm not expecting you to understand my sarcastic post.

You really need to get over yourself. If you're not winning, play better! Build better decks, play better, tech for the metagame, etc.! A lot of your posts are complaining about you not winning and using luck and the current format as a scapegoat. Get real. Some people in this format are doing consistently doing very well! Did they all get consistently good flips and draws? Pssshhh, I don't think so. It's not impossible to do consistently well if you play well. There's no such thing as being consistently unlucky. It's possible to get horrible luck every single event but the chances of that are obviously super-super-low. If you are constantly doing badly then it's your fault! It's not an excuse to to completely bag another player (meesie666 in this case) for no reason.

I'm sorry for this utterly pointless rant but it annoys me when people do this.

 

[Meesie6x6]

I think he's talking about who goes first. The player going second has the chance to Candy up to a Stage 2 and begin their assault as early as the first turn, depending on who actually goes first. Out of the decks you mentioned, I think SP, Beedrill, and Kingdra all get an advantage by going second.

Yeah your right, but it's not that worse to start. If you have a call energy or a good attack (and you're 1 energy drop ahead)

You and I are on the opposites of playing. You win all the time and are lucky with draws and flips and I'm not.

You can't always blame your luck for not winning, People DO get bad hands but just not every game (I have had some bad hands but most times i could fight back with my Chatot/Sableye tech) and indeed i lost one game on a bad hand, did i feel bad; Of course.

ON you winning/losing on luck, just watch your deck choises; Beautifly, seriously the whole card is owned by one card that every deck plays, You just refuse to play Metadecks and just any deck that you didn't make yourself.

PS i don't play many flip cards, i played 6 different decks this season and only two played flip cards (gyarados with SSU and Gengar but i often choose to not flip just because i was winning anyway))

 

[afstandopleren]

I know, at least your so called consistent deck still let you win even with bad hands. Thats considered luck, not skill.

Meesie, your sad sad panda is prolly blind for everything that's in my sig, but at least I can see that getting 5th with Beautifly is still a big feat and tells me more about my skills then you winning with Luxray GL or Gengar.

Riiiiiiiight, and SSU isn't flippy? If you never had the need for a critical ssu then why do you even play that card?

 

[billbilski]

Rob - I've got to disagree a little with good players are good deckbuilders. I used to win tournies because I was a much better deck builder/strategist than most players, but I would drift off at times and lose focus. As a matter of fact, I probably won more games with more misplays than anyone I know LOL. It seems with this format EVERYONE has a solid list and now I actually have to play better. Like Jimmy B, I find this extremely fast wide open format hard to crack as a rogue deck builder.... I'm actually playing cards that other people are playing at tournies... what is this world coming to...... It's to the point I feel that my in game play is more important than my deck building, where as when I started the deck pretty much determined my outcome.....I guess that means victories will be awful tough

 

[goliaththegreat]

I think you have to put a little more time in to your deck building beacuse of the wide open format we have.Theres just so many good decks right now.

 

[bullados]

In general, here's what I've noticed...

The difference between those that have an above .500 record and those that have a below .500 record over the long term is the quality of the decks they play. As in, those that are above .500 generally play solid decks based around classic deckbuilding strategies such as ample card drawing, solid evolution lines, speed when necessary, and power when available. Those above .500 also tend to build decks that conform to their own style; they build their own decks.

The difference between those that are above .500 record and those that consistently make the top cut in major events is the quality of gameplay. For the most part, there is little difference between an 8-0 Gengar and a 5-3 or 4-4 Gengar as far as the build is concerned. However, the 8-0 Gengar, in general, playtests their deck immensely, gets those one or two cards in there to help in the bad matchups, and, most importantly for this comparison, doesn't misplay.

It used to be, back before the DP series, that you could get away with simply having a solid list and not really playtesting it or making misplays. Now, the level of competition has risen significantly, and in order to compete, you have to make sure both that your list is solid and that your play is as perfect as possible.

I'll give an example of this. US Nationals 09, I'm playing Dark Flygon, a deck that I had tested extensively and built impeccably, and I'm 1-1 going into the third round. I come up against one of my hardest matchups, Palkia Lock. Midway through the game, I've got a Pachi active against my opponent's Palkia. In my playtesting, I noticed that Palkia really doesn't like seeing Pachi in play because of Smash Short. In this game, I didn't notice that the Palkia didn't have a Gain attached. I used Smash Short with an empty bench against a Palkia without a Gain after my opponent had already used 3 of his 4 Spirits and I had a Claydol and a Bebe in my hand. Needless to say, I lost that game in the next 3 turns. Had I used CFF, I might've had a chance to come back if I had played perfectly from there out. That game cost me a trip to the Top Cut at US Nationals.

Having a solid deck list will make you a solid player. But, to be the best, to consistently make the top cut, you need to be able to play that list flawlessly and you need to know your competition well enough to make a stand against your tough matchups.

 

[amphyrules]

Haven't read anything on this thread.

There is so much luck involved in this card game that its foolish to assume that deck building, one of the few things within your control, isn't an extremely important factor for success..

 

[ryanvergel]

Deck Building and Playing is one in the same thing. A great player is always a great deck builder. They know why every card is in "their" deck. The list will match there play style and pace that they want to play the game at.

Pace and Speed, I had a speed Gengar build, then I realized that Gengar is probably better played reactively, not aggresively. With that the list changed to match the pace that I wanted to play with. (T1 Gengar wasn't really needed, thus the speed of set up could be toned down) Anyhow a deck builder and player will understand a deck, and how they will want to play it, and have the build match that pace.

If you give a "set up" deck to a speed player, they just want to go aggressive, take chances, and the deck will sputter. If you give a speed/aggro build to a "set up" player, they migth not hit the accelarator hard enough to give the deck the best chance.

Anyhow a good player will be at one with his deck, know why every cards is in there, and what every option in the deck is. (Zen Master quote)

I have to respectfully disagree. Martin M went 14-0 with Delta before he even knew what the deck did. He had no input into the deck, but has the best tournament record of any other player ever with a deck he never played before the tournament (did he even get in one real, 6 prize playtest game?). Kyle S made that deck, and he IS a deck building genius, who happens to also be really good at playing, evidenced by his OWN Nationals win with a deck he worked with himself and knew. However, their wins are very distinct. Although Kyle S showed skill in BOTH deckbuilding and in-game, we definitely can't attribute any of Martin's success to his deck building skills, because he didn't do anything with the list at all, and barely knew it. Not saying he isn't a good list builder, because he is, but the two aren't the same things at all. I just showed very obvious evidence of there existing in-game skill without deckbuilding skill, which shows they definitely are not the same (identity theory, any possibly true identity statement is necessarily true, etc etc).

I've seen many people play very well with decks they have little familiarity with (Tom D... just look at his performance with GG), based purely on their in-game skill, and relying almost nothing on their deck building skill.

They're not really the same at all. They're quite distinct, but often accompany each other.

 

[Naki Feralkin]

I completely agree with Ryan on this one. You don't have to be an absolutely great deck builder in order to be able to run it. Sometimes its nothing more than a nice addition. I've given a number of different archetype decklists to a now masters player who picked them up so fast in comparison to many other people I've given said lists to. Again, like Ryan said about Martin, this is not to say he's not a good deck builder himself, but he manages to pull through with almost no knowledge whatsoever. Many other people I've given these lists to have struggled in their games, trying to figure out the whole purpose of the deck and muddling through it with no answer and a poor record to show.

The Masters player I've mentioned above and my girlfriend are both very good at picking decks up with minimal testing, especially off lists of my own creation. My girl just pulled off a 4-1 Top 4 at her last event off a list I created the night before with no practice whatsoever, in addition to a 4-2 missed cut at VA states with a similar list. Imagine how it might have been with more playtesting. The Masters player had a number of wins at very large events in his 2 previous years in seniors (3rd place Great Lakes Regionals as well) off of lists I've helped him come up with or created in a very tough Ohio Senior division (one that sent.. 4 or 5 people to Nationals top tables)

You don't need to be good at deckbuilding to be a solid player, its just a bonus that comes with it. Look at Kyle S. and Chris F.

Also, Tom D had trouble with a Machamp list given to him at a cities last year. I know you can have your weak days, just stating a fun fact.

 

[ryanvergel]

Yeah, a deck like GG had the options, consistency, and power to give someone with no knowledge of the deck, but with immense innate skill, Tom D, to excel with it.

 

[yelanates]

I think that this game is dependent on skill, deck building, and luck, although the ratios differ. For example, the majority of "good" decks usually rely less on luck (or "flippy" attacks/trainers) and have consistency-based trainer lines.

However, you see a theme deck challenge tournament, and a great player will still win, not just some random person. So skill certainly does play a factor.

Even with great decks, there is room for error and misplay, and luck can be involved with what you and your opponent draw.

 

[Meesie6x6]

I know, at least your so called consistent deck still let you win even with bad hands. Thats considered luck, not skill.



Riiiiiiiight, and SSU isn't flippy? If you never had the need for a critical ssu then why do you even play that card?

I know, at least your so called consistent deck still let you win even with bad hands. Thats considered luck, not skill.

[SARCASM] i must be such an enormous Luck sack that it is not even funny i won al least 20 games just by lucksacking [/SARCASM]

Meesie, your sad sad panda is prolly blind for everything that's in my sig, but at least I can see that getting 5th with Beautifly is still a big feat and tells me more about my skills then you winning with Luxray GL or Gengar.

Oh and that's your best record... in you whole pokemon playing time, and sure [SARCASM] Beautifly takes so much more skill then a SP toolbox [/SARCASM]