Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Elections

blastoise1992 said:
I'm afraid of the new house majority leader though, WAY too liberal IMO.

Better than being a raging conservative like Bush.

What would you do when faced with a HORRIFIC act that KILLED thousands of innocent people????

I'd have seen to the recovery of my own nation as a first priority. I'd tighten border security, and accept foreign aid as it was offered. After the recovery was underway, I'd then see to hunting down those responsible, and in a manner that does not cause additional conflicts. I would not declare a "war on terror" and alienate the rest of the world because of it. I would not invade nations which had nothing to do with the terror attacks.

Also, what if we DIDN'T go into Iraq, and Saddam SUCCESSFULLY set up a nuclear weapons program...... suppied our enemies...and then what would happen, then banded together with Iran and S Korea.......

Do you have any grasp of world events? Iraq isn't any kind of superpower, it wouldn't have any way of terrorizing America on any scale. I don't see why or even how they could seriously have "supplied" any of America's enemies with nuclear weapons, especially given the fact that there was no evidence of any kind of weapons programs of that order set up.

The reason people hate Bush is that they dont know enough information to make an informed descision...

Or because they know enough information to know that he's probably a worse leader than the "tyrants" he deposes.

Now im not saying that getting rid of a Vile Dictator is a bad thing...Its not..

But here's where the issue gets complex. It can be. In fact, it can be entirely the wrong thing to do.

The point is that you can't just go invading, stomping around in areas of the world on whole other continents from you, without turning a few heads. In America's case, it's made its standpoint in the Middle East blazingly clear. To them, it is a terrorist nation in support of the terrorist nation of Israel. Because of their deposition of leaders they don't like, and imposition of leaders they find more suitable and agreeable to American interests, there's a very legitimate reason people are swearing holy war on them.
 
blastoise1992 said:
I can only WISH you were in his situation right now........... What would you do when faced with a HORRIFIC act that KILLED thousands of innocent people???? Now, no one is supporting him. You don't have to agree, but you should support him, our country, and the troops when we're ALL faced with these trying times. Also, what if we DIDN'T go into Iraq, and Saddam SUCCESSFULLY set up a nuclear weapons program...... suppied our enemies...and then what would happen, then banded together with Iran and S Korea.......

To all you people who hate Bush, put yourself in the same situations, and possible situations before you all jump to conclusions. I can only hope all you peopel who hate Bush can be in ONE HALF THE PRESSURE OF HIS SITUATION.
You're falling into the logical fallicy that so many in America have.

After 9/11 everyone supported action in Afganistan.
THAT is where the people that attacked us were.
And then, before that was finished, we took a left turn and went after Saddam.
We had inspectors back in that country and they were getting access to the sites that they needed to look at. It was amazing, Saddam was actually cooperating! He was because he knew that he didn't have what they were looking for.
But Bush was hot to go after him, so he pulled most of the troops out of Afganistan, leaving the guy that BLEW UP OUR TOWERS FOR THE PAKISTANIS TO GET (Note: They never did get him for us, did they?) and went off on this adventure that diplomacy and sanctions were better for dealing with. Saddam was bottled up. He was no imminent threat.
Not like the imminent threat that we let escape while we were sidetracked with him.

Saddam band with Iran? That statement shows a total lack of knowledge of the situation over there.
Iran and Saddam were blood enemies. Bush Sr. left Saddam in power as a counter to Iraq. Too bad his son wasn't as smart.

"jump to conclusions"
How ironic.
 
I think a lot of people are forgetting that most Democrats also supported going into Iraq from the start. They have since turned against it for the most part, but I'm very interested to see what happens next. For the past three years the Democrats have hammered Bush for his failed war, however it has largely been blind criticism. The Democrats have no exit strategy. They have no solution. They want to get our troops out, but there is no unified message from the left as to how or when that is going to happen, and under what terms. This is the Democrats' big chance. So far it has been enough to simply send blind criticism, but now it is time for them to finally act. I'm anxious to see what they come up with, because I've got a feeling that if they haven't made serious progress in Iraq by 2008, they're going to lose whatever ground they've gained.


UPDATE: with Webb's victory in VA, the Democrats control the Senate by 1 vote. Should be very interesting to see if the Republicans can find one to switch sides, or if they can stay unified and put on pressure. Bush may have to put on his Grover Cleveland hat.
 
"I think a lot of people are forgetting that most Democrats also supported going into Iraq from the start."

I do wonder which democrats supported the war because it was a good idea, and which supported it because if they didn't, they'd be marked as aiding the terriorists? Does anyone think that if the Patriot Act was supplied to congress now, it would pass with the same flying colors as it did 5 years ago?
 
It's only a matter of time before we see the American version of Belinda Stronach or David Emerson.
 
At that time Bush still had blind support of everyone in the country to go after the terrorists whereever he saw fit. Also, don't forget that Congress didn't get to see all the intelligence, just the favorable stuff that he chose to share with them.
You know, the stuff that turned out to be waaaay wrong.

As for this crap about the dems not having a plan... what do you call what we've been doing the past three years? This is a plan?
 
i was taught to respect our president, whoever he is, and thats something the democrats need to start doing
 
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PokePop said:
As for this crap about the dems not having a plan... what do you call what we've been doing the past three years? This is a plan?

Just because the Reps DONT have a plan, does that necissarily mean that the Dems DO have a plan?

:wink: :wink:
 
Rulemaster said:
i was taught to respect our president, whoever he is, and thats something the democrats need to start doing

This, quite frankly, is fallacious. Why respect a leader regardless of what he does? Regardless of the actions he takes? If Bush's actions do not deserve respect (and oh, does Bush need to be tried for war crimes), then Bush should not get respect for them.
 
Hmmm, a horrific act that killed thousands of innocent people. How about the 3000 body bags we have to account for of this stupid, wasteful war? They were all innocent. They were our sons, our brothers, and our fathers. They were our sisters, daughters and mothers as well. What was a waste, was sending half the army into a country that had done nothing against us in years just to settle one man's personal vendetta.
 
blastoise1992 said:
Don't forget they were SOLDIERS. They signed up to defend our nation.... you know you may die.
Bolded the operative phrase.
Afganistan = defending our nation
Iraq = ???
 
Marril said:
This, quite frankly, is fallacious. Why respect a leader regardless of what he does? Regardless of the actions he takes? If Bush's actions do not deserve respect (and oh, does Bush need to be tried for war crimes), then Bush should not get respect for them.
Respect is one thing. Criticism is another. You can respect somebody, and still criticize his or her work. In fact, the criticisms look a lot better coming from a position of respect, rather than from a position of disrespect.

Bush has a LOT to answer for right now. The entire country is still reeling from his "Axis of Evil" speech, which is probably a large part of why North Korea and Iran are building their nuclear programs. Bush basically sold out his entire Presidential agenda with that speech, and hasn't been able to deliver it. Not to say that the goals were necessarily good. They weren't then, and they aren't now. However, there would have been a lot more respect for Bush if he had been able to carry out his entire Presidential agenda while he still had the power.

About Iraq. We won't be getting out before Bush is out of office. It will take at least a year before a motion to get out of Iraq reaches the Senate floor; another 6 months before it reaches the House floor; and at least a year afterwards before it's actually carried out. Bush simply cannot see that his "Daddy's Little War" effort is failing miserably, and is turning into another Vietnam, or at least Korea. I'm not saying that the Dems have a good exit plan either. However, something needs to be done to get us out of there. Right now, we are in the middle of a civil war of another country. That civil war must be played out. We cannot just go in and enforce our will upon those that are unwilling to listen to us. Nobody in the Middle East (save Israel, and possibly Jorden) likes us. We are trying to "save" a country that doesn't want to be saved and is surrounded by about a dozen other countries that likewise don't want to be saved, and don't want to see any country in the region be saved either.

Also, the domestic and economic problems in America are getting worse. The new and secondary housing market recently plummeted, and that was essentially the basis of the entire US economy for the past 5 years. We need some sort of plan so that the last recent recession doesn't happen again, and most certainly not so quickly. Invest in new energy sources. Hell, invest in oil if you have to. Just do something so that the economy doesn't crash and burn like it did earlier this century.

Our borders are swiss cheese. I'm not talking about Canada or Mexico, though those are pretty unguarded to begin with. I'm talking about the sea ports, even the airports with all their new security. It's all too easy to smuggle something into the country without anybody noticing. Case in point: when my family went to South Africa about a year and a half after 9/11, we brought back about 1.5 pounds of biltong (essentially South African beef jerkey). It's technically illigal to bring meat of any sort into the country. The meat was inside a brown paper bag insice a clear essentially Ziploc bag. Nobody caught us, not even the sniffer dogs, and we walked into the country with 1.5 pounds of "illigal" meat. This is not a bash on a law. It's a bash on how "secure" we think we are. If I can get away with 1.5 pounds of meat, who'se to say that I can't get away with 1.5 pounds of coke? Or weed? Or TNT? That's what makes our borders unsafe.

OK, enough rambling from me right now. Enjoy!
 
Hummers2187plus3 said:
I think we shouldnt stop with Iraq and we should rid the world of terror, lets go after iran cuba and N korea.
nothing will ever happen with Cuba, mine as well face that, well nothing like Iraq and as 4 North Korea, We shouldnt have to do anything, there surrounding countries should because it would affetc them, and if we did go to war with them who would know if they already have a nuke, they shoot that at us and then it is a nucleur war which will devestate the planet, we dont want that now do we?
 
Hummers2187plus3 said:
I think we shouldnt stop with Iraq and we should rid the world of terror, lets go after iran cuba and N korea.

Cuba's sure going to destroy the world, what with those Russian nukes and their communist influences. Oh wait... you're a few decades too late. Now their main source of terror is the cancer from smoking the cigars.

Oh, I know, let's go after Iran, then! Wait, no, then you'll have Syria, China, and Russia after you. Not to mention Iran is far better equipped to fight a war by itself than Iraq was. Bad idea all around, eh.

North Korea... let's attack a country possessing nuclear warheads head-on! That will be over nicely and bloodlessly!
 
EDIT: Since there was some confusion, this post (since the above one got deleted and reposted below mine) response mainly to the one below this. He's added some stuff which I've responded to elsewhere in the thread.

I'm a card-carrying member of the "America has no foreign policy which considers non-Americans' well-being" club. The fact that they use illegal weapons to support a terrorist state is proof enough. How is it "reprehensible" to condemn actions taken which cause death and destruction for profit? How is it "reprehensible" to want a leader that considers the well-being of not only his own people, but the people of other nations enough to want to avoid war at all costs? Fighting is sometimes necessary, but this is not an excuse for needless wars.

Bush has himself said that pulling out of Iraq is a job for the next president. He simply doesn't care what he's doing so long as he's bombing brown people.
 
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Marril, from what I have read, your politics are reprehensible. You are a card carrying member of the "Blame America First" Crowd. People like you are the reason I vote Republican.

Personally, on the topic of Iraq, the reasons why we got into this war in the first place are little of concern compared to the problems we would face if we don't finish the job. The implications would be horrible if we don't win this fight against islamo-nazism right now. Do you really think this problem will just go away if we stop fighting? Do you even view islamo-nazism as a problem? I don't think you do, Marril. I think you just want to allow our enemies strength to ferment and mature so that our children and our grandchildren can face a much more formidable opponent in a war that will probably cost their lives and/or their freedom. Do you realize what the world would be like under Shariah law?

All this talk about "Bush did this to get us into Iraq, therefore the Iraq war is wrong..." is just plain shortsighted. In the long term, does it really matter how we got into Iraq? I submit that it does not matter. Does it matter what we achieve through this war? Absolutely. This talk about Bush's intentions is all just a ploy to gain an upperhand in partisan politics. It does not serve the interest of the country. It does need to be addressed, but not to the extent that it sacrifices our national security and future way of life.

And if you start saying that Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism, I will tell you why you are wrong.

ps. Sorry, I posted on jkwarrior's account a second ago. my mistake.
 
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