Note: Before I go into this post, I want to say that I have the utmost respect for Micheal Gills and Mike Boozer(MTM and DMTM repsectively) and am well aware that they did not have any dealings with trying to kill the 15+ age division.
Moss Factor said:
Are you serious? Its funny how so many MISINFORMED PEOPLE are throwing around IGNORANT STATEMENTS as facts. The Dallas brawl, which had to do with collusion? That's accusations of cheating- not leetist inflated egos, and there was no fight (some yelling and swearing, yes), so I don't know where this "brawl" tag on the end comes from.
Okay, I'm guessing I said something about collusion somewhere and I just forgot it(even though I still can't find any statement to that extent).
The "brawl" on the end of the name of the incident is the only thing that I have ever heard it called, so you'll just have to forgive me for not making up some new name and trying to explain what it was.
As for accusations of cheating...
Don't false accusations like that tend to sprout up fairly often amongst players who think that their opponent couldn't possibly be beating them without cheating(i.e. elitism)?
You see, I played another card game(DBZ) for a while that had the worst leetism of any game I've ever had any dealings with(one of the worst offenders was a group known as fanatics network).
Now, nobody outside of that group was ever good enough to beat anybody inside of that group, so every time a championship was won by somebody outside of that group, countless forums got flooded with accusations of cheating and or bribing(it just so happened that nobody ever cared to call a judge over when it happened).
These accusations got to the point where Score(the company that produced the game), would routinely have to issue public statements that stated that the winner's name had been cleared and that nothing against the rules happened.
Now, I have seen leetism at it's worst and I'm seeing people here who are getting real close to that level(almost like people signing a paper, saying they'll quit the game if somebody else wins the match).
Lets set up a timetable. The incident at the Dallas event was for the first WCSTS in 2000, one of the very first organzied events held by WotC. The professor program replaced the 15+ in 2002 after 4 rounds of QTs and 4 Super Trainer Showdowns had been sucessfully been completed. I hardly see causation there.
Have you ever heard of a downward spiral?
Hint: it's what a plane does when it's going to crash.
Wizards may have wanted to get rid of the 15+, but there was no chance they would ever get away with it if it weren't for events like what happened in Dallas.
In my opinion, if there had been qualified staff and not just hired bodies, the whole thing wouldn't have happened. The fact that Scott was handled by mall staff and not the judges is a joke. If they were propely trained, they should have been able to contain any situation before things got out of hand, especially one that had to do with the tournament itself. I could NEVER imagine a great judge like Vince, Derek, Doreen, or one of the many other superb judges we have letting something blow up like that.
Okay, let's just dump some of the blame on the staff(goodness knows that a whole lot of the judges with Wizards deserved it), but let's not shift the blame from the players themselves, unless we want to become like the people who blame the media for everything that happens.
WotC was a joke; they took a game which was outselling everything, including MTG and ran the Pokemon TCG into the ground. They didn't get rid of the 15+ because of any leetists. Notice, they told us that TPC wanted to keep the game "kid-oriented," and that they were forced to eliminate the 15+ division in exchange for the prof program. Funny that as soon as Nintendo takes over, the 15+ comes back and with trips and scholarships.
I am well aware that TPC did not want the exclusion of the 15+(I kind of figured on it at the time it happened, as it caused a notable drop in profits).
The simplest answer is typically correct: WotC eliminated the 15+ division because they were poor businessmen. Does McDonald's make me pass a test to order a Big Mac? It was financial suicide.
Sadly, if McDonalds did make you take a test before you could order food, you might just starve.
[ö.ö]
I'm pointing out how stupid McDonalds business practices are of course. hyuk.
Wizards of the Coast eliminated the 15+ reason for the same reason that TPC took the liscense away and PokemonUSA was created, they wanted a bigger piece of the pie.
Irony at its best. He's chastising a sarcastic comment I made by telling me I can't spot sarcasm. More comedy from my main man.
This post is such a waste of time. Its two guys ganging up on me and failing over and over again. Its a joke, really. You guys just keep making huge blanket statements and have some grudge against me that is completely unfounded. Who really is the leetist here? You guys obviously think you're better than I am, albeit not at the Pokemon TCG.
You do know that a post is what you made and the topic is what we are all posting in, right?
Since I need to keep up with my quota of misrepresenting facts, I'll go ahead and say it.
...
wait for it....
....
You(in your infinite wisdom), stated that your own post was worthless. :tongue:
Quit misrepresenting facts, quit making a lot of BOLD generalizations about large members of the pokemon community that you've never met, online OR in real life (I promise you that you don't know even 25% of the MS members), quit acting hypocritical, like you aren't an elitist yourself, and either do something constructive for this post or go back to whatever fantasy land you're living in where all your personal ventures are pure and you can pass judgement upon everyone without someone standing up against you.
I never claimed to be pure, but then again, I don't act like a jerk who needs to be taken down a peg or two either(unless the situation requires it).
Its funny how so many MISINFORMED PEOPLE are throwing around IGNORANT STATEMENTS as facts.
. . .
Like stating that you can beat how many people that you've never even played against?
Look, I don't have very high standards for what it takes to gain my respect(a couple of people who have posted in this topic even know what those standards are), but it appears that a number of people in this topic will never be gaining that repsect(not that those people would likely care in the least anyways).
BigChuck01 said:
Not everyone on Meanstreet is a "leetist". Take me for example:
That's why you're okay in my book(you win big, but you remain polite).
Ho Megas Alexandros said:
Check the front page, you'll see powdacham... then you'll see ZRE...
where are your contributions, mister?
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Fezin's contributions are probably right under yours....
Now I guess that means you can surely tell us where to find them, right?
He contributes to other forums, but not this one(with how often I seem to be saying that, maybe I should just sig it).
We both have our own reasons for not coming to this forum incredibly often(aside from when we're involved in topics), but those reasons will be left alone for the time being.
Now, after clearing that up, what forum do you contribute to(surely you wouldn't just jump into a thread to make such an inane statement with no real way to back up validity of the main point)?
Oddly enough, while Pokegym is a large forum and it has many members, some people(myself included) have this crazy thought that people who don't already know about all of the newest big decks are probably the people who could most make use of a little help.
Professor Chris said:
Geeze. I'm really not sure what you two guys have against Meanstreet. Moss, Chuck, Patriarch, and all the other people I've met are pretty cool.
To be honest, there are some meanstreet players that I do like, but I do not set aside my principles for any person(not even family members or close friends).
They aren't ruining the game. They aren't driving ANYONE off.
That's a matter of opinion, but I do thank you for sharing your opinion regardless.
Otaku said:
I am confused as to why some people keep saying the same things over and over again... when they know that the opposite side considered them to be 100% false. Not saying people can't continue the debate, but if it keeps going back to, in essense "are not!/are too!", then it seems to be a waste of time.
I seem to remember this same topic popping up over and over again throughout the course of the last however many years, but as long as there's a debate to be had, there needs to be two sides to that debate(especially when the other side acts like it has).
It just goes to show that some people do hold grudges over simple forum posts, and can easily be offended about negative posts and take them very personally.
I have no intention of tracking anybody down and I would hope that nobody else does either.
That being said, every person I have ever debated with(online or not) could show up at my front door tomorrow and I would stand by what I've said.
I refuse to back down from my principles under most circumstances(the only exception is when a principle is proven to be flawed by new evidence).
Hey, everybody is entitled to their own opinions.
Of course, if you've seen some of the games we play, you likely would not be saying that.
Then again, that just goes to prove the earlier point that people who are only known online can only be judged by their online actions(regardless of how civil they may claim to be in real life).
They sure are fun to watch.
So are zoo animals, but the level of fun produced by watching the subject is something that needs to be compared to the subject's effect on it's environment.
Patriarch said:
Now was the above comment serious and 100% truth, sarcastic cruelty, or just a way to find childish entertainment? Well, you get to be the judge, audience, because hey: what I randomly type at midnight on Pokegym just says so much about my character, RIGHT?
I'm going to have to say that it was childish entertainment.
Serious and 100% truth would be an oddball point to make and might offend some historians.
Sarcastic Cruelty only applies if it's sarcastic in a cruel way.
Childish Entertainment follows the tone of the rest of your post and allows for you to make a point without risking being dragged into arguements about the validity of the point(because anybody who argues about that just looks plain silly).
Of course, that would only make sense if I was some type of guy that tries to pay attention to things that don't exactly warrant that much attention. lol
Although we are what we say, think, and do, the internet does not define our character because it lacks real, physical human relationship, so it should be a minor factor, if a factor at all, when judging others.
Ummm...
Shouldn't a view into a person's personality, without our opinions being tainted by personal appearance hold more weight?
Seriously, no preconceptions based on the facial structure, hair, clothing, etc and all we have to go off of are what people say.
Why should an obviously superior method of judging a person's character be ignored?
Yes it's flawed, but much less so then judging a person's appearance.
New post popped up, so I'll just add on a bit more to this bugger.
-The few people being recognized as leetists are a very small percent of the game and (though a larger percent) are still a very small percent of the elite players, neo/meanstreet players etc. etc.
I am very aware of that and I tip my hat to the people who accomplish things without expecting a pat on the back for doing so.
-Phazon Elite and co's arguments are just as ridiculous and leetist as Moss and co, as Moss said, just not in terms of skill as much as supposed quality of person
The difference: Neither Phazon nor I want any type of praise.
I don't claim to be a better person(seriously, if I went around and stated that I was a better person, I would be no better then the very people I am against), but I do claim to be somebody who portrays myself with dignity at events.
-Basically a fair number of the better players of the game who have become friends like to tease and play around with the Pokegym community and brag about how good they are, then other people who have commented on this thread take those actions very (and most likely too) seriously and come back and make their own biased leetist comments dealing with quality of person, however they are acting the same way they hate the others for acting!
Leaving aside the obvious retort that your prior post was met with, I should note that
TheAnswer3 said:
Its all about Elitism in this game... People like Me, Moss, Alex, Jason, Martin Moreno, Faisal Khan are the best things that EVER happened to this game..
We inspite fear at the tournaments we attend, and have a GREAT freaking time afterwards... and usually its not a pokemon party, its us finding girls!!!!!!!!!! a rarity in the pokemon community
Without us this game would be nothing more than a bunch of guys that forgot their AXE, or Old Spice on any given Saturday playing cards with each other...
Does not look like teasing in any way, shape, or form.
Please explain how that comment could be taken in another way.
Once again, I have not claimed to be a better person(if other people can't come to a decision like that on their own, then stating it is simply making a fool of myself).
I don't honestly hate anybody on this thread(trust me, if I honestly hated them, they would definitely know about it), but certain things can't really be allowed to continue in that fashion.
Now, you guys have tried the "Hey, let's promote ego trips" method of dealing with leetism and it hasn't worked(I just can't figure out why).
Every ying has a yang, it creates balance and keeps one from growing too big.
In that same way, it stands to reason that there are anti-leetists(in contrasts to leetists).
Even though the anti-leetists are being just as misrepresented by biased leetist comments (like Phazon's) late in this thread, the original leetists (Moss etc.) know they are messing with people here and could respectfully keep that stuff more to themselves.
That's why we originally came to this thread.
The problem is that certain leetists don't respect anybody whom they don't deem to be leetist themselves.
Also, there is another thing that people have been doing in this thread that is a mild mistake(it's been bugging my brother like mad).
Leetism does not equal competitive play.
Competition is good for the game, but people who think that they can't be beaten by anybody they don't consider "7331" are not.
Before other people start jumping on the whole leetism thing, I would just like to note that I have been where this disturbing trend is going and I sincerely doubt that anybody would be in support of it if they knew what it(the final product of unchecked leetism) was like.
So, with this small post out of the way, I'm going to simply go offline for the night, take care of one or two things and grab some sleep.
