Flipping heads on a plastic coin > 50% of the time

[losjackal]

This contributes to the argument that it is much easier to manipulate the odds of a coin flip than a die roll.

psychup2034, let me get this out of the way: I 100% agree with your statement above. I don't know if anyone can even come out and make a case to disagree. Your issue of whether coins should be banned or not goes beyond that though. I'll offer the premise that even though it's easier than manipulating a die, it's still hard to do. (It's easy to TRY and affect the outcome, but having a measurable amount of success when it counts is hard.)

Want my opinion on the matter? I would still want cards to say "flip a coin", so that it's still as easy as possible for kids to informally play the game at home. But I would also support the notion that Premier tournaments ought to require the use of dice. I can't think of why not, other than it's not what the card says, and to supposedly respect Japan's wishes.


rivershock, I have a question: if a coin happens to land on a damage counter and then bounce a certain way, why isn't that acceptable as part of the random outcome? In other words, there is no predetermined outcome that was "altered" by having it happen to strike a foreign object. Do you see what I'm saying?

(The rules do stipulate that if a coin or die lands outside of your play area, that it should be redone. But whatever it strikes inside the play area is fair game and probably also part of the game design to introduce additional variability into the flip outcome...unlike the NFL research article previously cited, where the soft landing of the stadium turf contributes nothing.)

 

[psychup2034]

Want my opinion on the matter? I would still want cards to say "flip a coin", so that it's still as easy as possible for kids to informally play the game at home. But I would also support the notion that Premier tournaments ought to require the use of dice. I can't think of why not, other than it's not what the card says, and to supposedly respect Japan's wishes.

I completely agree with you here. I think having the cards say "flip a coin" is fine. I even think it's fine for the Junior and Senior divisions to continue using coins as to prevent confusion. However, players over the age of 15 will definitely not be confused by using dice to randomize, as a vast majority of players in the U.S. (if not other parts of the world as well) already use dice for randomization.

I think this is an issue that TPCi has to take up with Japan. I understand why TPCi may not want to use up some of its leverage with Japan on what is seemingly a trivial issue. However, I think this is an area where TPCi can lobby for independent jurisdiction. We play tournaments in a completely different structure compared to Japanese players. It wouldn't be so hard to have different restrictions on randomizers if someone asked Japan for permission.

 

[Politoed666]

http://assets17.pokemon.com/assets/cms/pdf/op/tournaments/2013/Play_Pokemon_TCG_Rules_and_Formats.pdf



So if neither player objects to it then something like a quarter or a penny is just fine to use.

Interesting. I've been told before by a Nationals judge that my metal Pikachu coin was not a permissible randomizer.

 

[rivershock]

I didn't necessarily say that it wouldn't still be random (as long as it hitting that object wasn't DELIBERATE), it's just much preferable to have a clean flip so there's no room for argument. I think this thread has shown how willing people are to see coin flips as illegitimate even when they were conducted properly and without bias. ;p


I get the feeling that non-currency, non RS-on Pokemon coins are unlikely to be accepted by the opponent, so I'd just steer clear of them personally.

 

[CeNturist]

The stigma surrounding coin flips never ceases to amaze me

 

[jaap]

If you see anyone "flip" a coin like this (ignore the catch and assume it lands on a table) then beware as the coin is not rotating in the air.

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but as that is me in the video doing the coin flipping, I thought I'd join and add a little information about it.
In most of those throws the coin seems to spin normally, but is actually spinning more like a very wobbly spinning plate so it just about keeps the same side on top. You can see that during the throw I twist my wrist, so the thumb kind of flicks the coin sideways rather than upwards. It only works with fairly large, heavy coins. I doubt any kind of plastic coin would be suitable for the technique.
The video I uploaded was my fourth or fifth attempt, so it has a pretty good success rate with a heavy coin. When it fails, it is almost always due to the coin bouncing and flipping over on landing.

I have not tried out which surfaces work best for landing it on without catching, but as was said earlier, as long as the person who doesn't throw the coin calls out heads or tails only once it is in the air, there is no way to influence the outcome one way or another. In that scenario it is only by predicting correctly in advance what the other person will call, that you could get an advantage, which would then make it more or less similar to roshambo (paper/scissors/stone).

 

[yoyofsho16]

One MAJOR problem with this debate (and I've seen this debate a billion times): WHEN WAS IT IMPLIED A COIN FLIP SHOULD BE RANDOM?

I've never seen a card that says "flip a perfectly random coin," so I'm not sure why we view flipping a coin a certain way as "manipulation." The card states "flip a coin." Looking at the game face-value, there's a lot more reasoning behind banning dice than there is behind mandating what constitutes a "coin flip."

As I understand it, most Japanese players use coins because they understand flipping a coin to be a skill and never have read coin flips as 50/50.

There is literally no fair way to distinguish a skilled coin flip from a statistical anomaly, assuming the coin itself is legal. You could suspect cheating and watch a player's flips but there will always be a chance that it's luck. That's why any of this effort is fruitless: it's not provable and a minor part of the game.

 

[EXdarkrai01]

I actually tend to prefer using coins. Not because of odds or anything, but simply because when a lot of players use dice, it won't even bounce more than once. That's not right, its against the rules but at the same time its kinda skeet to be like "oh that didn't bounce 3 times" just because it didn't land in your favor. Coins will almost always flip more than 3 times. I don't think there are a ton of players that sit at home practicing flipping coins either.

 

[Qzin]

I am one of those persons that can flip a coin AT LEAST 8 times out of 10 to my bidding. I've practiced a lot and I just know the right place to put my finger, right height and right force to do it. That's why I'm never flipping coins in competetive play. I am a professor and I don't feel fair to others to cheat in that manner.

Dices are much more random so I'm trying to use dices and just amuse people with my flipping skills


--edit--

Well we are not all Japaneese. The game always was and will be for me a game of deck building, probabilistics and logical thinking + counting skills. It shouldn't be about coin flips practice. Although if you say it was never meant to be 50/50 chance that's something I must discuss with players in my country because that would change this game a lot.

 

[ryanvergel]

I actually tend to prefer using coins. Not because of odds or anything, but simply because when a lot of players use dice, it won't even bounce more than once. That's not right, its against the rules but at the same time its kinda skeet to be like "oh that didn't bounce 3 times" just because it didn't land in your favor. Coins will almost always flip more than 3 times. I don't think there are a ton of players that sit at home practicing flipping coins either.

Yes!

This is exactly why I use a coin, too. When I flip, there is NO question as to it being a legal one.

Basically, it is easier to perform a legal coin flip than it is to perform a legal dice roll, because the coin is not dependent at all on the surface, the size of the randomizer, or any other facts.

It's just easier to perform legal randomizations with my coin than it is my dice. I don't want to have to ensure my rolls, or my opponents, bounce enough times. On playmats, or those hollow plastic tables, or with big dice, this can be hard to achieve.

Flipping a coin at shoulder height- it's very easy to have a randomized result.

I don't think anyone should be jumping to the conclusion that insisting on using a coin= cheating. The opposite, for me. I use a coin because there's never a question of whether my randomization attempt was legal or not.

And yeah, it is kind of shady and jerk-ish to be insistent on the rules. It sucks to have to tell or insist that your opponent re-randomize, especially if the outcome was not in your favor. You're looked at as kind of scummy or trying to cheat. I don't like being in that position, and I don't want to put my opponent in that position.

Plus, I have this neat Team Rocket coin, and I love it.

http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=45870

---------- Post added 02/12/2013 at 04:42 PM ----------

I am one of those persons that can flip a coin AT LEAST 8 times out of 10 to my bidding. I've practiced a lot and I just know the right place to put my finger, right height and right force to do it. That's why I'm never flipping coins in competetive play. I am a professor and I don't feel fair to others to cheat in that manner.

Dices are much more random so I'm trying to use dices and just amuse people with my flipping skills


--edit--

Well we are not all Japaneese. The game always was and will be for me a game of deck building, probabilistics and logical thinking + counting skills. It shouldn't be about coin flips practice. Although if you say it was never meant to be 50/50 chance that's something I must discuss with players in my country because that would change this game a lot.

Can you do this at nationals or worlds? If you can flip 8/10 either heads or tails, and they are legal flips, and we have a sample size of a few hundred flips, I would be glad to pay you money to prove this point, because quite frankly I don't believe you can do this.