Is it the format that's stale - or the players?

[Kayle]

People seem to be complaining that the game is way too simple right now... but in the last few months, where the format has not changed at all except for the addition of Lost World, I have seen a huge number of creative deck mixtures come into prominence.

The "Big 4" that I hear about is:
- Luxchomp
- Sableye
- Dialga
- Gyarados

And a common Tier 2 is Steelix, Machamp, Vilegar...

But are the tiers really necessary? Steelix and Vilegar have proven that they're viable decks in this format, evening the format out to six decks just like that. But there's more!

I'm looking at the What Won SPTs thread now. It says, and I quote:

Masters Winning Decks:
16 Luxchomp (1 w/Honchkrow)
5 Sablelock (1 w/ Luxray SP) (2 Chenlock)
4 Vileplume/Gengar
4 Gyarados
3 DialgaChomp
2 Lostgar w/Vileplume
2 Machamp (1 w/ vileplume)
1 Arceus
1 Steelix
1 Scizor Prime
1 Vilegar / Dusknoir
1 Magnezone

Scizor, Dusknoir+Vilegar, Magnezone, Lostgar, Steelix, Machamp, even Arceus. Yes, only one win for most of those. But... looking at Top Cuts...

T2: Vilegar x4, Machamp x2, Absol/Gliscor, Mewperior, Magnerock x3, Lostgar, Lucario/Palkia, Steelix;

T4: Lostgar x4, loads of Vilegar, Machamp x7, Steelix, Donphan, Jumpluff, Tyranitar x3, Tangrowth/Jumpluff, Magnerock x2, Yanmega, Regigigas, Infernape 4/Garchomp C;

As well as some odd ones like Raichu, Gliscor/Gengar, Charizard, etc in Top 8.

This implies to me that there are many viable decks, and they just aren't seeing a lot of play. Past Top 4 or so I'm pretty sure even at States, you aren't fluking your way in.

Add to that the ridiculously silly but perfectly viable alternate-win decks like Game Over and KGL...

Am I missing something? Are most people's top cuts flukes? Yeah, I can see top cutting with Luxchomp being a fluke... but with Steelix? Tyranitar? Magnerock? Lostgar?

I've heard some fantastic rumors that the format used to be HUGE, and I doubt we're anywhere near what I have heard, but it seems like there are a lot more very viable options than the "Big 4" we complain about... and they're mostly just not being played.

If you haven't decided on a regionals deck, play something OTHER than the Big 4, please. Let's just see what happens if we throw the so-called "top decks" out the window...

 

[jeffrey123]

I don't know about you, but where i'm from a lot of the players may in fact be stale (they smell REALLLLLY bad)

 

[immewnity]

I don't know about you, but where i'm from a lot of the players may in fact be stale (they smell REALLLLLY bad)

WIN.

I agree with the title, but not the thread. Let me explain.

IMO, there's not really much of a (pardon my social class terminology) middle class of players any more; most people you meet are either people that are going with the flow and use decks other people have perfected, or are people that are playing theme decks. There aren't that many that try out new ideas, but those that do turn out pretty well, as evidenced above.

 

[WavestripeMcKe]

Yea, the format at states was pretty stale, mostly top-tier decks. There was Blissey-Hippowdown though which was interesting and I believe he got top 8

 

[Porii Sames]

lol, I play a rogue, but topdex are fun to play.

In TX, we got lots of Vilegar, and then others like LC, BLG, Jumpluff, Pluffplume, Mullan.dec(s), and others. It's really diverse, cept for all the Vilegar in the area.

 

[Top Cut Comics]

Hello Kayle,
The name of this thread really had me in conflict with my opinions. After giving it some thought I think I have settled on how I feel about the idea of players becoming stale and not the format.

I am offended, really. Not with you personally, please don’t misinterpret what I am saying. Let me explain.

The biggest enjoyment I get out of this game is when my opponents reach across the table and say to me “What does that thing do?!?” I really take a ton of pride in building decks. I simply refuse to settle and play the top decks out there. I would rather spend my time doing what I enjoy about my hobby. Playing in tournaments right now just isn’t one of them. Building and helping new players learn how to build however, is one of them.

There are many reasons why I do not choose to participate as much as I have in the past. Becoming a PTO has tied me to the other side of the table. Kids growing older, taking on another comic store, etc. has inhibited my playtime considerably. Not to mention the whole format issues. I am not just talking todays problems, but generally speaking the last 12-24 months have not offered much change in the tournaments and/format. Do I miss playing YES!!! Do I care to right now? NO!!! I have tried with little to no success.

I guess what I am trying to get to is, just because you don’t see different decks at the top tables, does not mean they aren’t being built and played effectively. The format is dominated by the top 4. Look at the numbers you have provided. Don’t you think that in the 18 months or so that SP Pokemon have been dominating the tournament play, someone, somewhere could have found a counter to them? This is assuming that there is a solid counter to all of them. (which there is not)

I will challenge you to look into the events that were won by something other than the top 4 decks. Ask these questions…
What were the winners record vs the top 4 decks in the tournament?
What did they play against in the top?
Were there drops, DQ’s, scoops, penalties or something else that allowed them to excel?
Were the bad matchups avoided in the later rounds?

Many things go into winning an event. Sometimes you don’t need the best deck, simply the skills and luck needed to do well. Anyone can win on any given Sunday if the stars are aligned for them. I am living proof of that. The notion that the PLAYERS are the cause of a 4 deck dominated format is completely obsurd.

Just because something new doesn’t make it to the top tables, does not mean that it isn’t out there. People just get tired of seeing (and losing to) the same ole stuff, week after week, month after month, and now…. Year after year.

The players in my area will tell you that I have made decks that can compete today. Competing unfortunately isn’t good enough in this format. I like the decks I build and play. Many people in my area have to run counters to them to keep me grounded. This makes them better prepared come tournament time. This is what the game does for me right now. That is the FUN part for me.

Its unfortunate but spread decks and rogue just doesn’t measure up right now. I cant wait for the rotation. Then a new measuring stick will have to be used.

Just my 2 cents,
Jimmy

 

[bullados]

I will answer with one, simple, single-syllable word.

Yes.

To both parts of the question.

The format is stale.

The players are stale.

There is nothing more or less than that.

Both parts of your question are true.

 

[baby mario]

I think the problem is lack of rotation for the last couple of years.

We had the second year of DP-on

Then they only cut 4 sets. What did we realistically lose from those 4 sets? A great support card (Claydol), a few good techs (Dusknoir DP, Unown G) and ONE actual competitive deck (Gardy/Gallade, ok Beedrill as well)).

Too many cards have been ruling the format for too long . . . SP, Champ, Gengar, Uxie, Gyarados, Sableye. They couldn't make new cards that were better without the power creep getting ridiculous.

I really hope they have a big clear out and go HGSS-on after worlds. RR or AR-on just leaves a different set of old cards to overpower the new releases (Charizard, Arceus, Tomb) and the format will feel like a second rate version of the one we have now.

We need a clean break from cards that have outstayed their welcome.

 

[Chairman Kaga]

We need a clean break from cards that have outstayed their welcome.

^ This. The issue is not that the creative decks aren't out there, but that the top decks are so overwhelmingly good that a super-majority of players are sticking with them. Of course a deck like Luxchomp is winning 40% of the tournaments when well over half of the players are running it.

In other words, a distinct lack of parity in the current format. It's like women's college basketball, where 7 of the last 10 championships are attributable to 2 teams, 5 of them to one team.

 

[Prime]

I agree with a lot of what is being said here.

I do wonder about the history of some of the newer players, who weren't playing when LBS/MetaNite/Rock-Lock days were around, and don't really know of a format with big stage 2s doing tricks and combos to pull off cool stunts.

This generation, the one I describe above, perhaps wouldn't know how to fully utilize the current format. They'd see a bunch of stage 2s, that may scare some new players away, because of their larger energy costs, larger retreats, and yet still 2x weakness (for HGSS-on stuff) and stick with what comes natural, the fast basics that have every trick in their arsenal.

Even if and when we do rotate to HGSS-on, will this new generation of player be able to adapt to such a different style of format? I think so, but I think these players can't be called 'lazy' or 'dull' if they never really gained the experience that many of the veteran players have of playing through all the various seasons.

 

[Kayle]

Just because something new doesn’t make it to the top tables, does not mean that it isn’t out there. People just get tired of seeing (and losing to) the same ole stuff, week after week, month after month, and now…. Year after year.

Jimmy -

I really appreciate the time and thought you put into this response, though this line makes me wonder if you interpreted what I was trying to say correctly.

The decks are out there and are doing well. You're right, I can't be certain that all of those "rogue" decks' successes are legitimate. Many things can alter the course of a tournament. But I listed a pretty large number of successful States runs that weren't SP or Gyarados, and I'd be a little surprised if simple luck gave that many people that much success.

But I don't know that much all in all, and I can't be sure!

^ This. The issue is not that the creative decks aren't out there, but that the top decks are so overwhelmingly good that a super-majority of players are sticking with them. Of course a deck like Luxchomp is winning 40% of the tournaments when well over half of the players are running it.

This is more what I was going for, but also in that people complain about the stifling ability of Luxchomp and SP decks - without really understanding that they aren't actually that stifling. With appropriate skill and experience there are a great deal of decks that can do well even in this seemingly "stale" metagame.

This generation, the one I describe above, perhaps wouldn't know how to fully utilize the current format. They'd see a bunch of stage 2s, that may scare some new players away, because of their larger energy costs, larger retreats, and yet still 2x weakness (for HGSS-on stuff) and stick with what comes natural, the fast basics that have every trick in their arsenal.

I agree with this, this is almost exactly what I worry about. The capability of non-SP decks are just lost on everyone who has been exposed to SP for two-three years in a row.

 

[Todd Ingram]

I'll be happy when we follow suit with Japan again and just go with HGSS on.
It'll open up a whole new SP-free game, plus there will probably be a few new good BW cards.

 

[PokeMedic]

I hate the players, not the game -and haters gonna hate. Whoever can play with what's winning now is going to do so. I've never heard or read what those people think, though. What do the people who play these big decks this format have to say about the format and what they'll do when it changes?

 

[Kayle]

Judging by your signature it sounds like you already know...

 

[Setstage]

lol, I play a rogue, but topdex are fun to play.

In TX, we got lots of Vilegar, and then others like LC, BLG, Jumpluff, Pluffplume, Mullan.dec(s), and others. It's really diverse, cept for all the Vilegar in the area.

Hahaha is this even remotely serious? A glorified Uxie donk deck with 4 Bedrill G is far from a rogue, it is the other VERY stale and annoying part of this meta game. Donk decks which is why everyone is upset about new rules.

 

[kwisdumb]

I guess I'll throw out this opinion:

I don't want their to be a lot of decks in the format. I'd much prefer a format where one deck is undoubtedly the best, and then an anti-meta forms. The current format right now has too many top decks, to where pairings and match-ups often become a crapshoot. I'd rather there be less decks and a more defined metagame.

I understand this isn't what everyone wants, I'm not trying to start an argument at all. Just throwing another point of view out there.

Good posting.

 

[Cetra]

I guess I'll throw out this opinion:

I don't want their to be a lot of decks in the format. I'd much prefer a format where one deck is undoubtedly the best, and then an anti-meta forms. The current format right now has too many top decks, to where pairings and match-ups often become a crapshoot. I'd rather there be less decks and a more defined metagame.

I understand this isn't what everyone wants, I'm not trying to start an argument at all. Just throwing another point of view out there.

Good posting.

I did not realize this is what you wanted ._.

 

[Kayle]

I guess I'll throw out this opinion:

I don't want their to be a lot of decks in the format. I'd much prefer a format where one deck is undoubtedly the best, and then an anti-meta forms. The current format right now has too many top decks, to where pairings and match-ups often become a crapshoot. I'd rather there be less decks and a more defined metagame.

I understand this isn't what everyone wants, I'm not trying to start an argument at all. Just throwing another point of view out there.

Good posting.

If you have a "single" "undoubtedly" dominant deck, but an anti-meta forms, doesn't that mean you have a variety of good decks: the standard one, and then all the anti-standards?

Isn't that basically what the format's like right now anyway?

 

[kwisdumb]

Well, I'm not saying that it's what everyone wants or anything, it's just how I like to enjoy the game. I'd rather go into a tournament being prepared for a few decks and have the suites to beat those decks, than try to teach for the most relevant stuff and then get beaten by the 30 other random decks that are around.

Again, not looking to get involved in an argument around it, it's just how I feel.

---------- Post added 04/06/2011 at 10:58 PM ----------

If you have a "single" "undoubtedly" dominant deck, but an anti-meta forms, doesn't that mean you have a variety of good decks: the standard one, and then all the anti-standards?

Isn't that basically what the format's like right now anyway?

Well, right now you just have a crapton of decks, you can say LuxChomp is the best but it loses to some of those decks too. It's just a really random metagame right now. I don't think that where we're out right now is really what I was describing.

I more meant something like...
Tier 1:
Deck A

Tier 2:
Deck B
Deck C

Where as now, we have...

Tier 1:
Deck A
B
C

Tier 2:
D
E
F
G
H
I
J

Tier 3:
K
L
M
N

 

[SirJono]

I guess I'll throw out this opinion:

I don't want their to be a lot of decks in the format. I'd much prefer a format where one deck is undoubtedly the best, and then an anti-meta forms. The current format right now has too many top decks, to where pairings and match-ups often become a crapshoot. I'd rather there be less decks and a more defined metagame.

I understand this isn't what everyone wants, I'm not trying to start an argument at all. Just throwing another point of view out there.

Good posting.

Wouldn't that get boring?