Is it the format that's stale - or the players?

[Kayle]

Rofl. Same engine? Yes. Same deck? No.

I think you misunderstood his statement.

If you're taking the objective definition of a deck - a set of cards that revolve around a certain strategy - then you're right. They're different decks.

For the purposes of this argument, all we care about are the effects that deck has on the format - and all three of those decks have essentially the same effect (I'd say Dialgachomp is debatable, personally, but that's just me).

@Cyrus: I didn't mean to imply that it was the players' fault that the format is the way it is. Obviously we have no control over the format. I refer to the metagame.

The metagame IS directly controlled by us. Not by any single person, but by the overall whole, the entire playerbase. We decide what deck we play, not PCL.

I can't deny any of your facts, because they are - actually - facts! You're absolutely right. However, what I mean to say is that I think there are a lot of players, some very skilled, who haven't quite realized that there are decks out there that can take those broken mechanics that SP utilizes. And if more of those people, who are just so used to playing Luxchomp by now that they don't even really think about it, turned around and picked up Steelix or Tyranitar, we might see a radical change in the metagame and in the winning decks.

I definitely have to agree that donks make the format itself stale, though, so players can't be entirely to blame. =\

 

[Happiny13]

The thing about the metagame is that there are just a lot of followers in this game. Some people don't try rogue until someone else makes a successful build(aka Jumpluff). Some people try rogue, and they made something that didn't work as it seemed or it was inconsistent. They need someone else to establish a rogue or spend a lot of time on a unique deck for them to try it out.

 

[Scizor]

All you have to do is look at 2004-2007 and you will see the variety of decks compared to today. It isn't the players. People who have been playing for awhile generally get better, and there are plenty of great players. I don't buy into the argument that the players are stale. 2008 was a good format because although there were only a few viable decks, there was a great amount of skill involved in those decks. From 2009 on, things have just gone downhill. 2010 things got worse and 2011 is the worst format of all time, and it could even get to a point where no format will ever rival it for worst all time if Black & White rules are implemented with no rotation.

 

[Cyrus]

Kayle: yes, the metagame is controlled by us, but my point is that the specific conditions of the metagame very tough - if not impossible - for creativity to really take flight. Yes,

A big problem is that many of these decks lose hard to something among the conglomerate of SPs/Gyarados/Vilegar.

 

[bullados]

Scizor: I don't think anything can be worse than the Plox format. Wanna go into a tournament where 80% of the players are running exactly the same thing? At least we don't have that now, exactly. 80% run the same style of deck, but IMO it's subtly different...

 

[Tagrineth]

The way I see it, the problem isn't so much that LuxChomp is the best deck, but that it's the most consistent deck. The minimal setup involved means it can more consistently set up and more consistently disrupt its opponents.

 

[DoomScizor]

I want a format where I can take my favorite deck. Go with a Decent to good build, and be surprised at the match ups. Kind of how Kenny explained before with the Tyranitar. Personally I find it boring to everyday go home from School and practice games with the same Top Decks, because I know that's all I'll see in Top Cut. Then when I go to the Tourneys, I know how the play the matchup Left and right, But it somehow lost it's fun....See what I mean. I like an intense game against a not known deck I'd have to THINK of how "Card A" is being used with "Card B", and how I can counter it with my deck. Personally I think HgSs on will be a breath of fresh air.

 

[SHPanda]

Plox wouldn't have been so dominate if we had today's tournament rules. It won a huge chunk of its games on time.

 

[fuzzywuzzy229]

I think what contributes to the format's problem is that we have 2 decks that are Tier 1 that make deck choices limited.

1. We have Luxchomp which is super fast and disruptive to the opponents setup. So how do you counter that? You do something like Speed-Dos, add a lot of Trainers that make your deck faster and thus outspeed Luxchomp.
2. We have Vilegar which is decently fast in setup and slows the game by shutting off Trainers. If you have a speedy deck, you'll be Poltergeisted to death. To beat this deck, run less Trainers and use more Supporters.

So if you want to beat either 1 of these decks, you will lose to the other deck because of how your deck is built. I feel this severely limits how competitive a deck can be. If you are playing to win (and have fun of course), you would pick decks that are already established, hence the lack of variation in deck choices.

 

[waynegg]

having to test against a bunch of different decks and not being able to fit the tools to beat all of those decks is boring for me.

How is building and testing decks and keeping the game fluid (as it was for years pre-SP) vs stagnant (as it is now) boring? Frustrating at times, maybe, but definitely not boring. The only way it would be boring is if you don't really enjoy playing Pokemon, in which case you shouldn't be.

But if you can't find the solutions to counters FOR YOURSELF or create a new deck as the old become obsolete, why would you deserve to win? Are you really advocating a format where any lazy slug can just piggy-back another, far superior player's hard work as being the 'ideal' format?

To this I just say WOW, kinda sad. It also answers the question that is the topic of this thread so much more clearly than any other post here. It's definitely the players who have gotten stale.

 

[loudkirbyking]

Truly, it's both. Me, I like taking some idea I find, and upgrading it to be good. Like, last format, I played Magmortar SW, because I liked stacking energies like mad. It was slow as ever since I had no 'tombs or BTS, but it got me a 4-5 nats record, so I lived with it. This format, I'm a lot smarter, so I pulled out Donphan primes before rotation, then... it kinda got overshadowed by Machamp and upgraded Gyarados, Vilegar, etc... I'm still using it now, because it has potential. It got me top 8 in states, so I'm bringing it to regionals, because it's actually good.

And format depends on the area. States I went to had good amount of Steelix in it, to be honest, and little gyarados.

Anyway, the format isn't too good. With SP in here, it's either counter it, or hit the road. And when you counter it, everything else seems to own you... Something I thought of would be at nationals, have a side event in which only rogue decks are allowed. If it weren't during the tourney, that might inspire new decks. Heck, you could do it at regionals too! Might be good to see some epic little rogues.

And for my final touch, someone out there will make a Mewtwo/Machamp deck from pure SP hatred. I can feel it XD.

 

[supertyranitar]

Scizor: I don't think anything can be worse than the Plox format. Wanna go into a tournament where 80% of the players are running exactly the same thing? At least we don't have that now, exactly. 80% run the same style of deck, but IMO it's subtly different...

How is that really that bad? At least you knew what to expect at a given tournament.

Nowadays, there can be so many different decks at a tournament. LuxChomp is always going to be at any given area, but, afterward, it's up in the air as far as what to expect. A person can take a deck into one tournament, do really well, and then proceed to crap out on the following week. I see that as pretty ridiculous myself. You never know what you'll walk into on a given day.

Further, the Gardy format at least had a lot of skill to factor in. Sure, the format may have been mostly one deck, but, mirrors could be incredibly skill intensive. More skill intensive than SP mirrors. Plus, toward the end of the format, there was Empoleon, which could stand up to Plox - it did so at Worlds even.

Skill was such a necessity from the Plox format and before. Now, players don't have to get by on skill alone with the different ways of donking. I'm greatly troubled by this, and I'm not the only one. This format, luck plays too big a factor, which is not a surprise when there's no come back cards, and when the power creep has reached epic proportions.

How is building and testing decks and keeping the game fluid (as it was for years pre-SP) vs stagnant (as it is now) boring? Frustrating at times, maybe, but definitely not boring. The only way it would be boring is if you don't really enjoy playing Pokemon, in which case you shouldn't be.

But if you can't find the solutions to counters FOR YOURSELF or create a new deck as the old become obsolete, why would you deserve to win? Are you really advocating a format where any lazy slug can just piggy-back another, far superior player's hard work as being the 'ideal' format?

To this I just say WOW, kinda sad. It also answers the question that is the topic of this thread so much more clearly than any other post here. It's definitely the players who have gotten stale.

Really? I'd rather have what Kwisdumb discussed, a format where there's one clear cut deck that's really good, even the best among other decks, and then other decks. At least with that, you have a fairly defined metagame. That sounds exactly like 2004's metagame, and it seemed to work out just fine. Blaziken was top dog, and not much else was around. Gardy stood a chance against it, but, as soon as Hidden Legends came out, there were some really good decks that released that could go against said one deck. Heck, little did anyone else realize how good Magma would be. But, that one deck was still incredible in the next season; however, it had ways of being stopped. Another example of this was Rock-Lock. It was probably the best deck in the format in 2004-2005 until Nationals hit. One clear cut deck that was above the rest; then, Medicham ex hit the field at Nationals to counter the deck, which it did efficiently and effectively.

Plus, if there's one really good deck that stands above the others, and all the little lazy slugs build said deck, aren't the skilled, good players going to be able to out play them and win anyways? I don't see the issue.

I hate it when one can walk into a tournament, and have a great deck choice for the day, but one auto-loss kills them. If they face said auto-loss, it's possible that they're done. They lose potentially a lot of points. That's one of the many reasons I cannot, for the life of me, stand this format. It's nerve racking to have to walk into a tournament scene knowing that you can't face a certain deck, and if you do, it's going to hurt you miserably.

The players have not gotten stale. There's been multiple attempts at breaking the format, as has been seen; but, it's hard to break a format like this, where there's little answer to everything. Magnezone was a great attempt, but it has trouble against LuxChomp. Really, if it wasn't for LuxChomp, the format probably would have been broken already. I know there have been other attempts, but, it's hard to contend with the power creep that PCL allowed to happen.

 

[Scizor]

^ Yeah, pretty much. Also, I got a Worlds invite without playing Gardevoir in 2008, I would say I have a pretty good idea of what went on that format. It was not even close to 80% of the field. Empoleon could definitely have won Worlds that year.

 

[[R]Visitor]

I'm always surprised when people start moaning about the format. The format always gets stale, and it always gets rotated at the exact same intervals.

The format always go through the exact same cycle, year in, year out. Except that one year we didn't get any rotation.

I guess there's less long-term players on here than I'd thought.

 

[hueglin]

I guess I'll throw out this opinion:

I don't want their to be a lot of decks in the format. I'd much prefer a format where one deck is undoubtedly the best, and then an anti-meta forms. The current format right now has too many top decks, to where pairings and match-ups often become a crapshoot. I'd rather there be less decks and a more defined metagame.

I understand this isn't what everyone wants, I'm not trying to start an argument at all. Just throwing another point of view out there.

Good posting.

I see your point. But maybe another way to look at it is the best decks should be designed to be strong against most opposing decks and have some way to work through any unforeseen or difficult match-ups. That is hard to achieve when decks run as fast as they do now. But when the game slows down it should become more easily achieved as there will be greater opportunity for mid to late game come backs. I'm not saying it will be easy. I do believe a part of the game should be the challenge of building of an effective deck.

 

[vegitalian]

It's the format. We haven't had a really good set in ages, so nearly all of the decks in the format have been in the meta for a long time. I'm hopeful that with a rotation, it would level the playing field and we could start seeing some playable B/W cards.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I'm always surprised when people start moaning about the format. The format always gets stale, and it always gets rotated at the exact same intervals.

The format always go through the exact same cycle, year in, year out. Except that one year we didn't get any rotation.

I guess there's less long-term players on here than I'd thought.

Indeed each format get's stale at the end of the season.
But normally there is a rotation.
That year we didn't get a rotation (and the only 3 sets this season) is the real problem.

2009-2010 should have been MD-on
2010-2011 should have been RR-on but PL-on seems more logical.

Sure there would be some cards dominating, that's always happening.
But at least you could look forward to the 2011-2012 HGSS-on.

That would have kept the game moving.

For me it feels like many cards ar far over their expiry date.

 

[losjackal]

Indeed each format get's stale at the end of the season.
But normally there is a rotation.
That year we didn't get a rotation (and the only 3 sets this season) is the real problem.

2009-2010 should have been MD-on
2010-2011 should have been RR-on but PL-on seems more logical.

Sure there would be some cards dominating, that's always happening.
But at least you could look forward to the 2011-2012 HGSS-on.

That would have kept the game moving.

For me it feels like many cards ar far over their expiry date.

Agreed. I looked at the historical posts a year ago, but can anyone conjecture WHY they chose no rotation?

The published reason was because they "wanted to have more sets" in the format. But why did they want that? Specifically, I'm wondering if because they knew SP pokemon were going to be powerful, and wanted to keep as much of DP-SF in rotation for as long as possible. Clearly that was good for last year and some of this year, but could be awful with the new rules. (And presumably they would have had no idea about new rules that long ago.)

 

[Yoshi-]

No rotation was a good thing, the issue was md on afterwards

 

[baby mario]

Yeah, the second year of DP-on was a great choice.

I don't understand the MD-on rotation at all. It was like the main point of it was cutting Claydol - a card that actually helped a variety of decks to be viable - while leaving in all the donky cheap attackers.