Jimmy Ballards guide to a Good Rogue deck...

[secretsof2113]

Our? You dont know about Corners.

And Secrets, just because a deck has ONE component of an archetype, does not making it near ANYTHING of the same thing. If I ran Magmortar, Gyarados, Jinx, and Palkia, is that not a red face paint because it has *gasp* magmortar in it?! Your logic is flawed, is all I can say.


~ YOU WANT SOME TOKYO DRIFT MAN?!

You want flawed logic? I'd say ask the OP about that one. Every Magmortar deck I've seen runs Mag as the main attacker, which this particular deck in question does. Claydol is teched into nearly every deck anymore for draw power, so that's two. Muk has been used as a tech in magmortar decks to counter gardy/gallade....that's three. Lanturn is the only one that isn't normally part of a magmortar based deck. If that's flawed logic, then I'm sorry. But to me, that's nothing more than a modified magmortar deck with a Muk and Lanturn tech. Rogue decks don't follow the crowds. Jim Ferrell's Venusaur/Quagsire deck that won him a city....that was a true rogue deck.

 

[mrdraz07]

To the naysayers of the 4 corners list leaked yesterday: Is Muk not rogue? Is Lanturn not rogue? Is the strategy/combo of these not rogue? The fact that it has Mag in it doesn't mean that it's a Mag deck. I haven't built the deck yet, especially since the trainer list wasn't posted either, so there's no saying how the deck even plays.

Besides, there could be other iterations of the 4 corners philosophy that other people might have built. As far as I'm concerned, it's still rogue because there are several stage 1s that can be combined to tackle the meta.

 

[TOKYODRIFTMAN]

Uh, I did NOT reference to the Four Corners list posted yesterday, did I? I said a Magmortar in a deck, or a Gardevoir in a deck does not make it...unrouge? Best way to put it. You were stating ANY deck with Mag etc in it is NOT red face paint. Which is untrue, and which is what I was correcting. Im not talking about that garbage deck yesterday, nor did it seem you were in your statements. And if someone plays Muk in mag, please show me them for free points. And even moreso, if someone is tech'ing magmortar for GG, show me them too. Magmortar defeats every varient of Gallade, hands-down. Plox is even 60/40 in favor of Mag.

 

[secretsof2113]

Uh, I did NOT reference to the Four Corners list posted yesterday, did I? I said a Magmortar in a deck, or a Gardevoir in a deck does not make it...unrouge? Best way to put it. You were stating ANY deck with Mag etc in it is NOT red face paint. Which is untrue, and which is what I was correcting. Im not talking about that garbage deck yesterday, nor did it seem you were in your statements. And if someone plays Muk in mag, please show me them for free points. And even moreso, if someone is tech'ing magmortar for GG, show me them too. Magmortar defeats every varient of Gallade, hands-down. Plox is even 60/40 in favor of Mag.

You missed my first post then. :thumb: My first post in this topic referred specifically to 4 corners as not being rogue. I said nothing about every deck that has magmortar in it is not rogue. It's this specific variant that I'm referring to. I was considering a small maggy tech in my regionals deck, but found something better. After regionals, I plan to use gadevoir for future deck endevors. You can run gardy or gallade by themselves, and they can be rogue. It's when the two mix, that they are not. But because Magmortar is always run with claydol, , the Muk and Lanturn are simply considered techs in a Magmortar deck. I wasn't referring to magmortar in general not being rogue. My first post should clear that up.

 

[Naki Feralkin]

Magmortar defeats every varient of Gallade, hands-down. Plox is even 60/40 in favor of Mag.

If this is true, then why is there so many Gardelades listed as 1st place finishers all over the states win lists? If it were truly a 60/40 in favor of Mags, I'd expect to see it in 1st, as opposed to the constantly seen GG. Yes, it has won some states, but doing another check of the winners lists, it seems like GG still ekes ahead, which kind of contradicts your statement there.

Give it what pretty name you will, It still seems naught more than just Magmortar with a few cute techs.

Think of the definition of rogue.

# Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.

While it may be large and destructive, Magmortar is not unpredictable. Its one of two constantly meta'd decks in format right now. Giving it two techs and using Muk with it is nothing more than making it a variant of Magmortar. I'm assuming that if this is a rogue that every single variant of Metanite and R-gon were also rogues, no? And that the original build is the only authentic kind?

I'm not saying this isn't 4C, as it follows what 4C stands for, but at the same time, its still naught more than a Magmortar variant, which is pretty much just Magmortar. Magkiss is not rogue, its a variant. at the same time, Magphlosion is not the base of the deck, its a simple variant of the deck.

So because I'm running Claydol in Honchsol, that automatically makes it rogue, right?

I always thought playing rogue was playing something unexpected, unseen, something new that hasn't been experimented with before. Not toying around with the same old ideas and throwing tricks in with it. I've beaten GG with my "rogue" before, but I don't expect to win mass tournaments with it.

A rogue in many terms is considered going against the norm. I can't see how playing something that IS a norm can actually be going against it.

 

[mca3]

That is SO true, you guys have made alot of VERY GOOD Arguements to this. I have to say, you are RIGHT!!! I know that, I run Gallade with Mismagius or Banette with Empo, its Rogue because its DIFFERNT!!! It works too, AND they BOTH run Cesslock!!! But, what I am saying is Varients are NOT Rogue, they are just ADDITIONS or Techs to OVERLY-USED decks. I know Jimmy HAS to have ANOTHER Great idea up his sleeve, to Impress everyone with!!! So, that being said, You can take a Arche and make it a TECH( Banette in Empo, DONT ask me how it works, it JUST DOES, lol). Rogues HAVE to be something out of the ordinary, something we dont see EVERYDAY!!! I dont understand WHY everyone has to WAIT for Jimmy to make a COUNTER, quit Dissing him, and start TRYING for YOURSELF!!!

 

[secretsof2113]

That is SO true, you guys have made alot of VERY GOOD Arguements to this. I have to say, you are RIGHT!!! I know that, I run Gallade with Mismagius or Banette with Empo, its Rogue because its DIFFERNT!!! It works too, AND they BOTH run Cesslock!!! But, what I am saying is Varients are NOT Rogue, they are just ADDITIONS or Techs to OVERLY-USED decks. I know Jimmy HAS to have ANOTHER Great idea up his sleeve, to Impress everyone with!!! So, that being said, You can take a Arche and make it a TECH( Banette in Empo, DONT ask me how it works, it JUST DOES, lol). Rogues HAVE to be something out of the ordinary, something we dont see EVERYDAY!!! I dont understand WHY everyone has to WAIT for Jimmy to make a COUNTER, quit Dissing him, and start TRYING for YOURSELF!!!

I am in no way dissing Jimmy, and I know you aren't saying I am. But I want to put that out there as well. Last years Nats SD was a great idea. I had the variant built, but changed it to running Jolteon ex instead of marowak at the last minute, because to me, it worked better. Jimmy had a way to make it work. Heck, I also tried Emp/banette.....and nothing. What we want are decks that no one would think to run. Ones with unique twists. Not the same old stuff.

 

[sonyT]

Hello to all….

I have done my best to keep the Arithmetic deck off the boards. I did this to try and keep the surprise factor for the people who have the stones to follow in my footsteps. It was a terrible disgrace to the game and to the individual who tried to ruin it for all the people who put their faith in me to help them. It was a new low even for that particular individual. While I am not going to be playing, my deck will be out there. I wish them all the best of luck.

Jimmy

People seem to be giving a lot of deference to you, I am a newbie and don't really know your background and your contribution here, except to note that you post .33 articles a day and it is appreciated.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I really really resent anybody saying that they are trying their best to keep certain decks off the board.

I understand you not posting your deck, but if somebody learns of certain tech or certain combo, I would want them to post it here. Thats why I come to the board, to find out what others are doing.

I would even understand if somebody unethically took your decklist from a competition and posted it, but if they watched you play or guesstimated what cards you have in your deck, I think thats a fair game. They shouldn't be stopped from posting it because it might decrease somebody's chances of winning a game by "surprise attack" or even worse, some of your prodigies might not win.

My deck for the regionals is non-GG non-Mag and I want to know what the 4 corner deck is and what arithmetic deck is.

As I said, I don't know what the background is here and what the personal issues are, but I do know that I can not let a blanket statement by a Pokemon Professor that he/she is actively trying to keep certain decks off the board, go unchallenged.

 

[dld4a]

Like my attempt at a poison deck. YUK!!!

lol

Nice writing bud. Nah, you don't know what your doing at all. You've never played this game.

I don't think play testing is really a big deal if you've played with the cards in similar decks before (e.g. the trainers) and know how well the function, as long as you know what the cards do and what they're purpose is in the match ups. *keeps muttering on*

OMG!! Play testing is the single biggest factor in winning tournaments!

1. build a deck
2. test it 5 to 10 times to check it's ability to hang with the big dogs
3. make any changes necessary if your unable to at least be competitive with the top decks in the format This is where a lot of decks probably should be scrapped because if you can't compete with the good popular decks then you'll never do well at a tournament.
4. test it 5 to 10 times to check it's ability to hang with the big dogs and for consistency against all decks you may run into. You can't make a deck to beat all the decks you'll see in a tournament, but if you can build a deck that'll at least give you a chance to be close in most games the luck factor may carry you through.
5. make changes to improve consistency
6. test it 5 to 10 times
7. time to start making changes, try a single card tech
8. test it 5 to 10 times
9. try switching one of your Pokémon line to a different one
10. test it 5 to 10 times
11. repeat steps 5 & 6, 7 & 8, and/or 9 & 10 as often as you need to become happy with your deck
12. after you've pretty much settled on your decks list play test 20 to 30 more times to solidify your exact list in your head. It is very important to know the exact contents of your deck at all times during a tournament. After all that switching cards in and out during the play testing phase your exact list may, and often does, become a little fuzzy in your head. There is nothing worse than thinking to yourself during a game in a tournament, "Wait, did I stay with 2 Charm, or did I tech in that Shard." When deciding what Supporter to play it is very, very important to know if the card you're trying to get is even in your deck. This, BTW, is also why it is very important to check the entire contents of your entire deck the very first time you search your deck during a game. You don't have to count every NRG or anything like that, but you should hit the important parts such as Pokémon lines and tech cards.

 

[NoPoke]

play testing is the edge that separates the greatest from the very good. Very good can be good enough as long as your aspirations aren't too high. But for those that strive for top finishes at worlds and USA nationals you have to play test. To fail to prepare IS preparation for failure.

If the meta-game is fixed then a rogue deck could be as similar as 90% to the mainstream lists. Rogue doesn't mean a different main Pokémon.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

play testing is the edge that separates the greatest from the very good. Very good can be good enough as long as your aspirations aren't too high. But for those that strive for top finishes at worlds and USA nationals you have to play test. To fail to prepare IS preparation for failure.

That's so very true NoPoke. I'm going to have to consider sigging that!

Jimmy, fantastic post! Thanks so much for taking the time to write this.

 

[PokeDaddy]

To fail to prepare IS preparation for failure.

Dude, this borders on religious:biggrin:

On topic, I do think that one component that could be added to Jimmy's original list is playtesting with a small group of dedicated, highly motivated and skilled players.

Nice job James. Have fun in Sin City.

 

[Riq]

If this is true, then why is there so many Gardelades listed as 1st place finishers all over the states win lists? If it were truly a 60/40 in favor of Mags, I'd expect to see it in 1st, as opposed to the constantly seen GG. Yes, it has won some states, but doing another check of the winners lists, it seems like GG still ekes ahead, which kind of contradicts your statement there. .

well i think we saw many Gardelades in 1st place because EVERYONE was playing gardy decks

 

[Lawman]

People seem to be giving a lot of deference to you, I am a newbie and don't really know your background and your contribution here, except to note that you post .33 articles a day and it is appreciated.

I don't want to be disrespectful, but I really really resent anybody saying that they are trying their best to keep certain decks off the board.

I understand you not posting your deck, but if somebody learns of certain tech or certain combo, I would want them to post it here. Thats why I come to the board, to find out what others are doing.

I would even understand if somebody unethically took your decklist from a competition and posted it, but if they watched you play or guesstimated what cards you have in your deck, I think thats a fair game. They shouldn't be stopped from posting it because it might decrease somebody's chances of winning a game by "surprise attack" or even worse, some of your prodigies might not win.

My deck for the regionals is non-GG non-Mag and I want to know what the 4 corner deck is and what arithmetic deck is.

As I said, I don't know what the background is here and what the personal issues are, but I do know that I can not let a blanket statement by a Pokemon Professor that he/she is actively trying to keep certain decks off the board, go unchallenged.

I certainly understand you post. Please understand the "deck" Jimmy is talking about is an idea he is working on and has not played in any open tourney. HIS idea should not be leaked to this board (or any board) to "help out others". Once a deck is played in a santioned tourney, all bets are off and let the net deckers begin. Someone tried to leak one of his ideas for Reg's this week in a post here the other day. That is plain WRONG. If it isnt your idea, dont flush someone else's idea(s) out into the open.

Keith

 

[bulbasnore]

cause obviously I dont know what I am talking about.

Will you respond to the issue and explain your position?

Your response above is like, "What?! You challenge my word?!" Sometimes I think you believe that people don't respect your experience. In truth, there are people who don't know your accomplishments and other people, as in any online situation, who post a bit randomly, whom you must treat with courtesy. Maybe secrets is someone you know and you think he/she can take/deserves being dismissed this way. However, this is a public forum and you're either defending or elaborating on your position. This particular defense/elaboration falls short. Any "Don't you know who you're talking to?" type of response undermines the educational parts of your article and makes it look like a PR piece.

 

[rhodesia123]

I certainly understand you post. Please understand the "deck" Jimmy is talking about is an idea he is working on and has not played in any open tourney. HIS idea should not be leaked to this board (or any board) to "help out others". Once a deck is played in a santioned tourney, all bets are off and let the net deckers begin. Someone tried to leak one of his ideas for Reg's this week in a post here the other day. That is plain WRONG. If it isnt your idea, dont flush someone else's idea(s) out into the open.

Keith

thats a risk you have to take. dont reveal your deck to someone that you think might leak it.

 

[Prime]

Why is a four corners varient being made when there are only two good weaknesses to play on right now? Four corners is about hitting the popular weakneses. Only Muk in Magmortar/Claydol/Muk/Lantern actually provide a type that can hit popular weaknesses right now.

IMHO, the idea posted was less a four-corners deck and more just a regular rogue idea. But I kind of agree with some of the people in this thread that it wasn't the rogue that we are used to.

If Magmortar/Claydol is a big deck, and someone adds Muk and Lantern, isn't it just a variant of the big deck? If adding 2 extra lines to the deck makes the deck rogue, then GG's that ran Cressila and Weavile are rogue too. There is a line, even if quite blurry, between rogue and variant imho.

I am sure it's hard to come up with a truly rogue deck that can actually stand up with the big decks right now, so I can understand why someone might try to alter the big decks in hopes of coming up with a rogue idea.

 

[orangematt]

When playing a rogue deck, I heard somewhere that it doesn't hurt to being a good player.

 

[XYZ_Sniper]

play testing? wats that :lol: seriously i dont do that but i top most turnaments i go to lol

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

To fail to prepare IS preparation for failure.

i completly disagree with what u say no matter who says that if you know ur red face paint (and metagame) well u hardly need preping

 

[Papi/Manny]

lol

Nice writing bud. Nah, you don't know what your doing at all. You've never played this game.



OMG!! Play testing is the single biggest factor in winning tournaments!

1. build a deck
2. test it 5 to 10 times to check it's ability to hang with the big dogs
3. make any changes necessary if your unable to at least be competitive with the top decks in the format This is where a lot of decks probably should be scrapped because if you can't compete with the good popular decks then you'll never do well at a tournament.
4. test it 5 to 10 times to check it's ability to hang with the big dogs and for consistency against all decks you may run into. You can't make a deck to beat all the decks you'll see in a tournament, but if you can build a deck that'll at least give you a chance to be close in most games the luck factor may carry you through.
5. make changes to improve consistency
6. test it 5 to 10 times
7. time to start making changes, try a single card tech
8. test it 5 to 10 times
9. try switching one of your Pokémon line to a different one
10. test it 5 to 10 times
11. repeat steps 5 & 6, 7 & 8, and/or 9 & 10 as often as you need to become happy with your deck
12. after you've pretty much settled on your decks list play test 20 to 30 more times to solidify your exact list in your head. It is very important to know the exact contents of your deck at all times during a tournament. After all that switching cards in and out during the play testing phase your exact list may, and often does, become a little fuzzy in your head. There is nothing worse than thinking to yourself during a game in a tournament, "Wait, did I stay with 2 Charm, or did I tech in that Shard." When deciding what Supporter to play it is very, very important to know if the card you're trying to get is even in your deck. This, BTW, is also why it is very important to check the entire contents of your entire deck the very first time you search your deck during a game. You don't have to count every NRG or anything like that, but you should hit the important parts such as Pokémon lines and tech cards.

I guess I"m just lucky then. :/ I mean yeah, if you're starting out from the very ground work up, you will need to playtest a few games to test for consistancy and to get a good idea on the matchup with average starts. But if you have a semi-good list and know what your doing, playtesting shouldn't be needed except for those few games to get your feet wet. Techs need to be tested, but if there is a known tech and it works in a majority of decks, then you shouldn't have to test the deck out extensively to make sure the tech works for the matchup(s) its supposed to.