Jimmy Ballards guide to a Good Rogue deck...

[Lucario-Master]

One thing, the area I live in has no Meta game! I meen it at most we have two people playing decks that are alittal alike! yes this is good giving you more freedom of what deck to play but then you dont know what to protect yourself from,also My area is alwease changing its decks, I never seen a guy play the same deck for more then 3 Turnysand its not because its bad its just the way things happen here!

 

[mca3]

I understand playtesting is VERY important, BUT what can you do if you have NO way to test your decks against METAGAME decks, I try to have a RELIABLE Trainer line, but its STILL hard to tell what is NEEDED to be changed or Tweaked to beat those decks, so...

I am choosing between 2 differnt Rogues right now for Sat.I plan on either playing Mislade or my SD which I am working on NOW, I hope the surprise factor can help me!!!

 

[Curry]

Someone has sour grapes...

 

[dld4a]

I guess I"m just lucky then. :/ I mean yeah, if you're starting out from the very ground work up, you will need to playtest a few games to test for consistancy and to get a good idea on the matchup with average starts. But if you have a semi-good list and know what your doing, playtesting shouldn't be needed except for those few games to get your feet wet. Techs need to be tested, but if there is a known tech and it works in a majority of decks, then you shouldn't have to test the deck out extensively to make sure the tech works for the matchup(s) its supposed to.

Um, the name of this thread is "Jimmy Ballards guide to a Good Rogue deck." The assumption should be made that 'starting out from the very ground work up' is what's being talked about. Talking about established decks in this thread is nonsensical.

 

[SuperWooper]

As I said, I don't know what the background is here and what the personal issues are, but I do know that I can not let a blanket statement by a Pokemon Professor that he/she is actively trying to keep certain decks off the board, go unchallenged.

Pokemon professors do not have any more or less of an obligation to share their decks with others than non-professors, which is to say that you're just gonna have to let it go unchallenged (as there's no real grounds for a challenge, here).

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

@ Spoinkmaster … ouch. I think that you actually managed to make yourself look a lot worse than you were trying to make Jimmy look.

@ sonyT … I’ve struggled with this too. The bottom line is that OP does not publish the decklists of winners the way some other card games do. Since players can gain a competitive advantage by keeping lists secret & it’s not explicitly against the Spirit of the Game they do. As a relatively new player though I remember how much seeing lists here on the Gym helped me. I learned about how to make trainer lines consistent , how to pick Pokemon that work well together, how to customize energy to meet a deck’s needs, and more from lists here on the Gym. With a bit of experience the lists here gave me things to test against that I might see at tournaments.

The discussion about whether or not good players should or should not share decklists has been had multiple times here on the boards and a quick search ought to help you find some of these kinds of threads. I’ll just say that my position is that I see no problem keeping lists secret before an event and see no point in keeping them secret after one. I wish that POP would publish all top-cut lists on the official web page. I think that everyone, even the experienced players, would gain from that.

@dld4a … interestingly enough I don’t think that this is aimed at really new players. I see a progression where really new folks play non-archetype decks simply because they don’t know any better or don’t have the cards. It’s the step after that, once someone becomes serious and has both the cards on hand and the knowledge to play them that Jimmy’s article really seems to address. That’s the point where you can consciously decide to play metagame decks or play rogue and understand the advantages and disadvantages of doing so.

 

[SLOW DECK]

With all this red face paint coming this weekend, time to get back to old school.

We had Paper,
Scissor has been dominating of late,
We hear Rock is coming?,
Time to bring back Paper, just for fun?

 

[Papi/Manny]

Um, the name of this thread is "Jimmy Ballards guide to a Good Rogue deck." The assumption should be made that 'starting out from the very ground work up' is what's being talked about. Talking about established decks in this thread is nonsensical.

I wasn't talking about established decks. I never even said anything about established decks. I said if you can make a semi-good list (and how hard is that? Seriously, if you know what the concept of the deck is going to be, the deck should take maybe 10 games to get a solid list) you dont' have to playtest. Just because the deck is "rogue" doesn't mean it doens't have established aspects. For instance, 4 corners is a concept that has been used several times (4 corners, r-gon, haymaker, ect.), so the basic strategy is the same on a paper. Sure, the pokemon are different, but if the concept is the same, then not alot of thought has to be used in making the deck. I mean, I guess if theres a new strategy to be made that nobody has used in the past, then yes, you will need to test it enough. Eeveelutions is such a deck, as nothing before it really compares to how it ran. The hardest part of making a rogue deck is finding a concept that can beat the archtypes (or the majorty of the feild) and then crafting it to be consistant. After getting the pokes down, the rest should be simple. If you're running speed, cess. crystal and beach, ect. You can test different engines to try to make it faster/more consistant, but if your gernal concept is good enough, you shouldn't have to do this very much.

 

[Rainbowgym]

So if I understand it corredt
our Magmortar/Claydol/Muk/XX deck who took several SPT's is actually a rogue.
The same for the Gyarados/Cresselia/Claydol/XX which made tops last weekend Spring BR also is a rogue?
What about our Gardevoir/Gallade/Magmortar (yes all in one), also rogue?

If yes, I am so happy, because if that's the definition, the next tournament I will play another rogue.

 

[TSDMage]

I wasn't talking about established decks. I never even said anything about established decks. I said if you can make a semi-good list (and how hard is that? Seriously, if you know what the concept of the deck is going to be, the deck should take maybe 10 games to get a solid list) you dont' have to playtest. Just because the deck is "rogue" doesn't mean it doens't have established aspects. For instance, 4 corners is a concept that has been used several times (4 corners, r-gon, haymaker, ect.), so the basic strategy is the same on a paper. Sure, the pokemon are different, but if the concept is the same, then not alot of thought has to be used in making the deck. I mean, I guess if theres a new strategy to be made that nobody has used in the past, then yes, you will need to test it enough. Eeveelutions is such a deck, as nothing before it really compares to how it ran. The hardest part of making a rogue deck is finding a concept that can beat the archtypes (or the majorty of the feild) and then crafting it to be consistant. After getting the pokes down, the rest should be simple. If you're running speed, cess. crystal and beach, ect. You can test different engines to try to make it faster/more consistant, but if your gernal concept is good enough, you shouldn't have to do this very much.

You have to remember that no matter how good a deck is, it can always have a high probability of drawing bad hands. Testing not only shows the chemistry, but the flow. Personally it's EASY to lose if you're playing GG or Mag if you don't get a good start.

 

[UnKnOwN 111]

7. Keep it secret

That's what I was trying to do. But, someone had to post the key component to our Regionals deck. Know anything about that, Jimmy?

oooo your talking about you know who, who posted THE WHOLE "4 Corners Deck" on here....lmao!
i cant wwait until saturday, because sunday these boards on going to be FULL talking about this deck:wink:

Will you respond to the issue and explain your position?

Your response above is like, "What?! You challenge my word?!" Sometimes I think you believe that people don't respect your experience. In truth, there are people who don't know your accomplishments and other people, as in any online situation, who post a bit randomly, whom you must treat with courtesy. Maybe secrets is someone you know and you think he/she can take/deserves being dismissed this way. However, this is a public forum and you're either defending or elaborating on your position. This particular defense/elaboration falls short. Any "Don't you know who you're talking to?" type of response undermines the educational parts of your article and makes it look like a PR piece.

You never know what someone means to say when they type on here. He may think he knows very little and others think he knows a lot. So your basically putting words in his mouth and taking one part of that post and making a big deal about it when it really isnt....lol a lil sarcasim aint hurting anyone, but then again its jimmy:lol::nonono:

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

lol

Nice writing bud. Nah, you don't know what your doing at all. You've never played this game.



OMG!! Play testing is the single biggest factor in winning tournaments!

1. build a deck
2. test it 5 to 10 times to check it's ability to hang with the big dogs
3. make any changes necessary if your unable to at least be competitive with the top decks in the format This is where a lot of decks probably should be scrapped because if you can't compete with the good popular decks then you'll never do well at a tournament.
4. test it 5 to 10 times to check it's ability to hang with the big dogs and for consistency against all decks you may run into. You can't make a deck to beat all the decks you'll see in a tournament, but if you can build a deck that'll at least give you a chance to be close in most games the luck factor may carry you through.
5. make changes to improve consistency
6. test it 5 to 10 times
7. time to start making changes, try a single card tech
8. test it 5 to 10 times
9. try switching one of your Pokémon line to a different one
10. test it 5 to 10 times
11. repeat steps 5 & 6, 7 & 8, and/or 9 & 10 as often as you need to become happy with your deck
12. after you've pretty much settled on your decks list play test 20 to 30 more times to solidify your exact list in your head. It is very important to know the exact contents of your deck at all times during a tournament. After all that switching cards in and out during the play testing phase your exact list may, and often does, become a little fuzzy in your head. There is nothing worse than thinking to yourself during a game in a tournament, "Wait, did I stay with 2 Charm, or did I tech in that Shard." When deciding what Supporter to play it is very, very important to know if the card you're trying to get is even in your deck. This, BTW, is also why it is very important to check the entire contents of your entire deck the very first time you search your deck during a game. You don't have to count every NRG or anything like that, but you should hit the important parts such as Pokémon lines and tech cards.

agree 100%.....I usually keep the original list somewhere and see how far it came. I guess people have dropped the art of playtesting/practicing since they can just come on pokegym and write down a deck and read on here how to use it and what to do in situations.....HILARIOUS! Maybe in the deck help and strategy or archytypes(sp) section they should put the good things AND the bad things of a deck.


Rogue is sooooo much fun to play. If people tried it once in a while they would see. Building a good rogue deck is HARD WORK and WILL GIVE YOU PLENTY OF HEADACHES....but the payoff at the end is sooooooo good. To say YOU created a good deck that people are using AROUND THE WORLD feels AMAZING!

 

[mca3]

SO True!!! ROGUES bring out the BEST in Pokemon TCG, without them this game would be BORING!!! Archetypes are GOOD, BUT VERY BORING to run. When you see the SAME deck week after week at CC or BR, IT just MAKES you want to come up with something NEW to change the Metagame, it has that effect on me, and I am sure A LOT of other people as well! We just want to see something POP out of NOWHERE and change the scene, Jimmy is TRYING to change this format, lets NOT leave him hanging! Lets get off the Bandwagon and jump in the little, red one that has SO much potential to be better, lol! It will be FUN and you will get LOTS of rewards for being the Minority of Pokemon!!!

I mean, we ALL want to win, BUT we all want to have OUR OWN mark on the game when we do. If you win with YOUR deck, NOBODY will forget that. So I have noticed alot of Jimmys decks that have done well, that is what made him a TOP ROGUE player, and gave him the ability to GAIN everyones attention to a NEW idea or deck. If a few more of US can do the same, or at least contribute to a NEW deck or a FALL of a GREAT Archetype, than you will hear everyone quoting or talking about your latest decks, which is alomost every Rogue deck builders dream!!!

 

[XYZ_Sniper]

SO True!!! ROGUES bring out the BEST in Pokemon TCG, without them this game would be BORING!!! Archetypes are GOOD, BUT VERY BORING to run. When you see the SAME deck week after week at CC or BR, IT just MAKES you want to come up with something NEW to change the Metagame, it has that effect on me, and I am sure A LOT of other people as well! We just want to see something POP out of NOWHERE and change the scene, Jimmy is TRYING to change this format, lets NOT leave him hanging! Lets get off the Bandwagon and jump in the little, red one that has SO much potential to be better, lol! It will be FUN and you will get LOTS of rewards for being the Minority of Pokemon!!!

I mean, we ALL want to win, BUT we all want to have OUR OWN mark on the game when we do. If you win with YOUR deck, NOBODY will forget that. So I have noticed alot of Jimmys decks that have done well, that is what made him a TOP ROGUE player, and gave him the ability to GAIN everyones attention to a NEW idea or deck. If a few more of US can do the same, or at least contribute to a NEW deck or a FALL of a GREAT Archetype, than you will hear everyone quoting or talking about your latest decks, which is alomost every Rogue deck builders dream!!!

well said :thumb:
but i have shear dumb luck that when i built a deck to counter blissey (when it was hot) i never faced a blissey so umm i dont seem to have much luck

 

[SteveP]

What makes multi-type decks possible? DRE, Scramble, and to a lesser extent H-Castform. Crystal Beach was the one card that helped my kid win with Banette/tech. No one expected Crystal Beach at the two States my kid went to, so one tech card, in combination with a Turn-2 deck, was able to win many games for him.

Good rogue means two things, IMO:

1. It counters the meta-game.
2. The meta-game has no counters against it.

That does NOT rule out using portions of the meta-decks, even major portions.

The main problem with rogue decks, IMO, is consistency. Once you can make a rogue deck consistant, it has a chance to win a tournament.

Anyway, the GG / Magmortar meta-game is all about P-Powers and mega energies (DRE, Scramble). Counter those two aspects in your rogue deck and chances are, you can win.

Nice article Jimmy!

 

[hk27]

I think Jimmy summed how to build a good rogue dec perfectly. Meta-game, tech, playtest, and by doing so know the in's and outs of your deck. I'm a little dissapointed by how sw has gave two decks all the win's in this tourny season but it has been chipped away a little with new sets out. after the last set is out this season and after testing the cards during battle roads. I think everyone will be in the right mind-set with whatever they are playing for advancing far at nationals. With that said i hope everyone will have a great experience at regionals, and hope to see all pkmn players that can make it at nats.

 

[ARMondak]

My sentiments are along the same lines of Magnechu.

Who else has broken the format not only once, but TWICE (three times if you count Ambush); who else has had a very strong showing at a Worlds with rogue; who else has mentored countless others and inspired others to think outside the box?

The only person that comes to mind is Jimmy. Sure, others have accomplished one or maybe even two of those, but nobody else can claim to all three.

Jimmy Ballard is what everyone should strive to be not only as a player, but a person.

 

[dld4a]

I wasn't talking about established decks. I never even said anything about established decks. I said if you can make a semi-good list (and how hard is that? Seriously, if you know what the concept of the deck is going to be, the deck should take maybe 10 games to get a solid list) you dont' have to playtest. Just because the deck is "rogue" doesn't mean it doens't have established aspects. For instance, 4 corners is a concept that has been used several times (4 corners, r-gon, haymaker, ect.), so the basic strategy is the same on a paper. Sure, the pokemon are different, but if the concept is the same, then not alot of thought has to be used in making the deck. I mean, I guess if theres a new strategy to be made that nobody has used in the past, then yes, you will need to test it enough. Eeveelutions is such a deck, as nothing before it really compares to how it ran. The hardest part of making a rogue deck is finding a concept that can beat the archtypes (or the majorty of the feild) and then crafting it to be consistant. After getting the pokes down, the rest should be simple. If you're running speed, cess. crystal and beach, ect. You can test different engines to try to make it faster/more consistant, but if your gernal concept is good enough, you shouldn't have to do this very much.

I knew I was not stating my point quite correctly when I was typing it, but I didn't have time to re-figure it. I didn't mean established decks so much as the established techs/engines you are talking about. It seems that maybe you don't have a full understanding of running rogue. Most often a good rogue deck will operate differently against the different decks it faces. It is up to the player to identify his/her opponents deck and direct his/her deck properly as quickly as possible. That absolutely does take practice! Often times decks like GG/PLOX or Rock Lock (of days past) run exactly the same every single time, but good Rogue decks often (almost by definition) need to be more versatile. But by all means continue to not practice.

 

[Papi/Manny]

I knew I was not stating my point quite correctly when I was typing it, but I didn't have time to re-figure it. I didn't mean established decks so much as the established techs/engines you are talking about. It seems that maybe you don't have a full understanding of running rogue. Most often a good rogue deck will operate differently against the different decks it faces. It is up to the player to identify his/her opponents deck and direct his/her deck properly as quickly as possible. That absolutely does take practice! Often times decks like GG/PLOX or Rock Lock (of days past) run exactly the same every single time, but good Rogue decks often (almost by definition) need to be more versatile. But by all means continue to not practice.

Ah, that makes alittle more sence. Most rogue decks don't use that unique of an engine. Testing a rogue engine isn't what this thread is about now is it? I definately understand how to play rogue decks and I think my record proves that. I guess in-game playing differs from person to person. I personally don't find it very hard to find the strategy of a rogue deck against an archtype and get it running. And yes, I will continue to have a social life outside of pokemon and have success with rogue decks. :thumb:

 

[UnKnOwN 111]

next time don't speak unless spoken to.

I was talking about my Regionals, which Jimmy posted the main component to in another thread.

James, that didn't give Jimmy the right or a good reason to post what he did.

The point I was making is that he was being a hypocrite in making that point and then revealing my main attacker and then Gino's list.

What do u mean dont speak unless spoken too?? These boards are free to post in random threads buddy.

HE TOLD PLAYER1 THAT DECK AND PLAYER1 POSTED IT! YOU didnt tell PLAYER2 about your deck, he could have been wrong about it right?? But im guessing he obviously wasnt wrong since your spazzing about it...:lol::nonono: Simple as this. He told PLAYER1 and that person was scared of losing to it so he posted it thinking it will somehow reck the so called surprise factor. Someone must have told PLAYER2 one card in your deck and he posted it. one card>whole deck?:thumb:....theres more i could say but we can talk in private about that.

 

[PloKoon]

Great thread jimmy! When I can get more cards and get more experience, I too will make a rogue deck. I play T2 Banette, I know it's not rogue, but not a whole lot of people play it as compared to Mag/GG, I just hope I can do well at regionals.

Is it just me, or does Banette seem like the raieggs of last regionals?