Lets talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games

[PSYCO829]

There are still ways you can counter Double Team and OHKOs, just like there are way to counter everything else, you just have to use it.

not meaning to sound rude or insulting, but you missed the point i made 5 times like two pages ago

double team is easy to counter, simply using defog, haze, no miss attacks, or toxic your opponent early and you got em
the proble with it is with younger, newer players
when you get people who dont know or arent capable of countering double team in a tournoment, matches can take a while
i saw a match that took 35 minutes to complete because both players had ludicolo's maxed out on double team with leftovers, and they kept missing each other with struggle
finally on player landed a critical hit on the other, and knocked them out
ive seen what double team does to a tournoment, it can ruin the fun of it

countering one hit ko's is immpossible
dont even say sturdy, every pokemon with the sturdy ability is weak to water, and thus weak to the main one hit ko attack you see, sheer cold
since almost all ice pokemon that would be using this move are part water types, they make terrible counters
name me a counter that can be a little more useful, if you would please

 

[Marril]

The purpose of that statement was not to defend a Double Team ban, it was to justify an OHKO ban, if there is only one way to counter it.

I gave you several counters to it, both hard counters and soft counters. It's not my fault if you choose not to use them.

i saw a match that took 35 minutes to complete because both players had ludicolo's maxed out on double team with leftovers, and they kept missing each other with struggle

A whole 35 minutes. Wow. Would you complain if a match took 35 minutes in the TCG? I certainly hope you wouldn't, since as I understand it there's an hour time limit for matches.

Grow up.

dont even say sturdy, every pokemon with the sturdy ability is weak to water

Skarmory.

 

[PSYCO829]

I gave you several counters to it, both hard counters and soft counters. It's not my fault if you choose not to use them.

and i shot down all your counters
nice try though

A whole 35 minutes. Wow. Would you complain if a match took 35 minutes in the TCG? I certainly hope you wouldn't, since as I understand it there's an hour time limit for matches.

matches take 30 minutes you idiot
and considering that the individual matches had a 20 minute time limit, which is the equivilant of a one hour match taking 1 hour 45 minutes
i guaruntee you, if i were in that cut, i would be mad
so would you
dont even try to claim otherwise

Grow up.

im torn between take your own advice, and ladies first
meh, screw it
ill use both

Skarmory.

which has garbage special defence and would probably die from a STAB surf anyway
still, nice try

 

[Marril]

and i shot down all your counters
nice try though

I even told you it's not my fault if you don't use them.

Want to try adding something of value for once to this discussion?

so would you

No, I really wouldn't. I'm used to hour-long time limits for matches—maybe it comes from playing a better game (Magic) where manipulating luck is acknowledged as part of the skill involved, instead of DiaPer where it's regarded as quite the opposite. Maybe you should try growing up.

which has garbage special defence and would probably die from a STAB surf anyway
still, nice try

But it's not weak to water. I'm tiring of your little habit of making a sweeping statement, being proven wrong, and acting like you didn't get proven to be an idiot.

So, start adding something of value to this thread before you get it locked for your incessant and pointless trolling.

 

[PSYCO829]

I even told you it's not my fault if you don't use them.

Want to try adding something of value for once to this discussion?

i have been
A. ive been shooting down the BS you've been spitting everywhere
B. ive said smog on's reasons for the bans on the items, double team, and one hit ko moves
C. ive gone over why no one likes, uses, or obeys nintendo's battle rules
D. ive also explained that while double team is easily counterable, it is obnoxious because of the insesant leangth it adds to battle when people dont prepare for them

lets see... what have YOU added?

No, I really wouldn't. I'm used to hour-long time limits for matches—maybe it comes from playing a better game (Magic) where manipulating luck is acknowledged as part of the skill involved, instead of DiaPer where it's regarded as quite the opposite. Maybe you should try growing up.

better game? lol?
A. you're lying
B. magic is far from a better game (i play it as well ya dolt). and guess what happens when you deal with usual hour long matches? YOU ARE BUSY FOR CLOSE TO AN HOUR
you arent finished with your match in 45 minutes and then forced to wait for another half an hour
now when magic games stall out... that can get ugly

But it's not weak to water. I'm tiring of your little habit of making a sweeping statement, being proven wrong, and acting like you didn't get proven to be an idiot.

my appologies, you seem to have gotten confused
you see, it is your job to be an idiot with pathetic arguements
and in your confusion, you seem to have thought i took your job
i assure you i have not

and this is perhaps the only statement of mine you have shot down, congradulations, ill get you your medal later
shall we count the number of yours i have?

So, start adding something of value to this thread before you get it locked for your incessant and pointless trolling.

trolling is your job, you do it
we've been over this...

adding something of value?
such as explaining why double team is banned, why one hit ko moves are cheap, why those items arent allowed, why nintendo's rules are never used and smog ons are?
something like all those which i have had to explain to you... again and again (and again...)?
lets see what youve added of value...
,,,
...
you told us that magic games take an hour...
yep, thats all i can think of

honestly, keep the arguement coming
your post are getting so pathetic, im tempted to take pictures for laughs later on:lol:

 

[Cheater Hater]

:nonono: Now it isn't just debating, it's fighting and flaming. Again, I'll try to recap points in an effort to stop this topic from getting locked:

I am currently not defending a Double Team/Evasion ban. Again, the competitive players are waiting for Competitor to be released to test it. Many players have an open mind on allowing it in the D/P metagame, even though any decision will be heavily scrutinized (especially using DT in combination with Baton Pass). Difficult decisions have been made in the past in the German Koffing rules, most notably with allowing Celebi and Jirachi in OU.


On the other hand, I am defending a OHKO ban. You say they have many counters, but many of them are either limited (Fly's, Protect's), too easily countered in similar ways (most Sturdy's), or are universally useful against all aggression (Double Team, Substitute to an extent). Again, you can't allow something when the only truly viable counters are Substitute and Skarmory. Besides, both of those are already very overused. Is that a good thing or a bad thing for a metagame when a few main strategies counter so much, they almost have to be used?

Finally, yes Magic has luck. However, even you will admit that (Magic in particular) a TCG has less luck then a Pokemon battle (the full game, not "no luck" rules). The most notable similarities are that both have inherent luck (the deck/the damage formula) and the possibility for user-added luck (coin flip cards/evasion and low accuracy attacks). The main difference is that while in Magic the user-added luck is barely ever competitively viable (most coin-flip cards are very bad, but the new clash mechanic may change that--and that's more manipulable), while in Pokemon, the luck may hinge on the side of overpowered. And, like in Pokemon, when user-added luck becomes competitive in Magic, the "Spikes" will complain, as they have regarding Frenetic Sliver in TSP block this season.

Specifically to PSYCO829: You are the main reason why this topic is derailing. While Marril is trying to respond to the point's I'm making, you're spouting gems like these (spelling errors kept intact for flavor):

ive been shooting down the BS you've been spitting everywhere
you're lying
it is your job to be an idiot with pathetic arguements
trolling is your job, you do it
your post are getting so pathetic, im tempted to take pictures for laughs later on:lol:

That is all pure trolling. Other than that, you still aren't adding much to the argument that other people haven't already said. Please try to not get this topic locked.

 

[Marril]

You say they have many counters, but many of them are either limited (Fly's, Protect's), too easily countered in similar ways (most Sturdy's), or are universally useful against all aggression (Double Team, Substitute to an extent).

Not all counters are equal. That said, I don't see why a counter that's universally useful against all aggression can't be used as an OHKO counter, especially given that in the purest sense of numbercrunching the game, OHKOs simply parse as a very aggressive, high-damage form of attacking.

Again, you can't allow something when the only truly viable counters are Substitute and Skarmory.

There are two soft counters I'll note that you didn't mention: Double Team and aggressive tactics. Double Team drops OHKO accuracy by a fair amount, and has already been talked about above. Responding to OHKOs with aggressive tactics is something that seems a bit off, until you realize that (unless I'm misremembering the numbers horribly) even the numbercrunching that got posted earlier in this thread favours "Fire Blast" style attacks over OHKOs past and including the three-turn mark.

However, even you will admit that (Magic in particular) a TCG has less luck then a Pokemon battle (the full game, not "no luck" rules).

Depends on the deck and your draw. In both, players will try to manipulate probability as best they can. Magic players will run card drawing, tutors, and as many of a key card as allowed, for instance, to increase their odds of drawing it. My deck in particular (Ankh Sligh) has a very high redundancy factor in its threats, so as to never be at a loss with any given draw. Except mana screw. Nothing will stop you from eventually being mana-screwed and losing because of it. This is, however, a well-accepted part of the game.

In any case, the analogy holds true to Pokémon somewhat. Players will use lower-accuracy attacks when Double Team is banned, because then they have a higher chance of not being dead weight. 80% accurate attacks get dropped down to 68% accuracy after a single Double Team (0.8*0.85), but 99.6% accurate attacks only go down to 84.66% accuracy (remember that unless DiaPer changed it, all "100% accurate" attacks have a 0.04%, or 255/256, chance of missing). When Double Team is in the format, low-accuracy attacks clearly are unviable. Thus, running high-accuracy attacks is a form of probability manipulation, among pretty much any other decision which is made in formulating a strategy (they are in general too numerous to list, and should be easy enough to simply understand based on context).

My point in all this is that the "wait for Competitor" mentality deprives the metagame of valuable, real-life testing, where we can assess the actual effect of OHKOs and evasion. Looking at the numbers, I see little reason to believe OHKOs are more overpowered than an extremely aggressive strategy, nor do I see reason to believe that the addition of same would do anything more than add one new strategy to have to consider. No team is going to universally counter everything (except, clearly, itself), and if it did, I would consider the metagame unhealthy as suddenly that would be the only team to use. OHKOs are simply another strategy to account for or possible lose to, nothing more.

And, like in Pokemon, when user-added luck becomes competitive in Magic, the "Spikes" will complain, as they have regarding Frenetic Sliver in TSP block this season.

Frenetic Sliver amuses me more than anything else. It's interesting to play against because it forces you to adapt your strategy to consider it, unless you want to ignore it completely (some of my decks can do this). Of all the Slivers, I'd say the worst to play against is Crystalline. That's when I truly need to break out Wrath of God.

Then again, I'm a Johnny, not a Spike. One look at the deck I mention in my profile says it all.

 

[Pablo]

No more talk about bans and what is or not allowed by anyones rules will be allowed from now on, it only leads to trolling and flaming, as exemplified by the posts above. Some posts will also be reported to Admins.