Lets talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games

[vaporeon]

well

latis with soul dew better be uber, cuz that makes them sweep pretty much everything

and besides, slaking is not uber, its ability makes it suck (well it doesnt really XD) and same with regigigas

Slaking should be a uber, ability or not. Turn one: stat buff. turn 3: Giga Impact, something died, no recharge because the ability kicks in, turn 5 Giga Impact until they win. That sounds pretty uber to me. Just the fact he can kill something every other turn. You could Baton Pass into him with some attack and defence boost on him so he won't die and sweep with him and he gets stab with his attacks.

Lati@s with Soul Dew is uber, so I don't use it so I can get them in tournaments but, I can't do that because people complain about their typing being too good because they don't have double weakness like most dragons do which is a good thing because Ice Beam won't kill them.

 

[PSYCO829]

before i say anything, i would like to appologize for the insults i put into my replies earlier
they were vulgar and rude, and totally uncalled for
i was having a bad day, and let myself vent on you
i am sorry:frown:

You're missing the part where I defined "über." Saying that Kyogre/Groudon are über under that definition is like saying the sky is red.

your defenition eh?
so, you would have kyogre and groudon in standard OU battleing?

But they also add randomness to the game and detract from the German Koffing idea of "skill." After all, the German Koffing ideal for the game is one where no random factors affect the outcome at all, and critical hits detract from that. What was it that German Koffing was saying? "Skill is prediction"? It's impossible to reliably predict a critical hit. Thus, critical hits are by the German Koffing definition not skillful.

Just saying.

aye, but the luck is in both players favor, and isnt something that can be easily manipulated
i already pointed how scope lense take the place of a more useful item, and using focus energy takes the place of a probably more useful stat buff, making it a much less viable option
randomness is already inhierent to the game (stone edge missed 5 times? OMG!!), but by limiting some of the randomness, the game is made as skill based as possible

I call 'em as I see 'em.

fair enough

Right, that's why German Koffing rules are listed as the "online standard", am I right? It has nothing to do with people following their illogical rules just on faith that they're somehow the best Pokémon players when they simply set the metagame to how they like it, metagame health be damned, 'mirite?

they call it the online standard because so many people like and use their rules
they dont enforce them outside of their own tournoment
i could go and post a thread right now proclaming my own rules and call them the new online standard
odds are i would get little attention if people disliked my rules

Slaking should be a uber, ability or not. Turn one: stat buff. turn 3: Giga Impact, something died, no recharge because the ability kicks in, turn 5 Giga Impact until they win. That sounds pretty uber to me. Just the fact he can kill something every other turn. You could Baton Pass into him with some attack and defence boost on him so he won't die and sweep with him and he gets stab with his attacks.

you make a good point, but in that one attack, my metagross, who is nearly as powerful, could have made two attacks
giga impact has a base power of 150, making it 225 after STAB
meteor mash has a base power of 100, 150 after STAB
thus, metagross does 300 compared to slakings 225

not to mention slakings ability limits him
you use giga impact, and i switch out to a ghost
you lose your next turn, i stat buff
since most slaking are choise banders, you have to switch out, or lose ur attack for the next turn
i just gained two free turns to setup

or i could send out suicune, and use substitute
you shatter my sub, and i use calm mind
next turn, you do nothing, i throw up another sub
you crush the sub, i calm mind
next turn, slaking is killed

Lati@s with Soul Dew is uber, so I don't use it so I can get them in tournaments but, I can't do that because people complain about their typing being too good because they don't have double weakness like most dragons do which is a good thing because Ice Beam won't kill them.

it may be a good thing, but it also makes them uber
all dragons have something limited on them

salamence, garchomp, flygon, altaria, and dragonite all have double weakness to ise
kingdra has half-decent stats, and a limited move pool

even the uber dragons are limited
palkia and dialga are difficult to make into sweepers, due to the fact that the cant leard any attack buffs and they have low speed
rayquaza has double weakness to ice
giratina is the only one without many limitations, but considering his speed is bad and is attack barely uber standard, it would seem they tried to limit him as well
latios and latias are limited in uber by their base stats, making them on par with all the other uber dragons
i hope this helps

 

[Ultima]

Slaking should be a uber, ability or not. Turn one: stat buff. turn 3: Giga Impact, something died, no recharge because the ability kicks in, turn 5 Giga Impact until they win. That sounds pretty uber to me. Just the fact he can kill something every other turn. You could Baton Pass into him with some attack and defence boost on him so he won't die and sweep with him and he gets stab with his attacks.

Protect. Slaking can't touch me.

 

[Marril]

so, you would have kyogre and groudon in standard OU battleing?

Nah. It gets mucky because people trample the title of "über" around on things which don't deserve it (Wynaut and, apparently, ****ing Phione). A change in nomenclature is all that's required, as the current system really isn't up to the task of labelling things.

aye, but the luck is in both players favor, and isnt something that can be easily manipulated

Indeed. It only swoops in to kill things you otherwise wouldn't have, possibly giving you wins you wouldn't ever have earned with inferior levels of prediction, because the only thing that displays skill apparently is prediction.

randomness is already inhierent to the game (stone edge missed 5 times? OMG!!), but by limiting some of the randomness, the game is made as skill based as possible

Bull hockey.

As has been stated many times before, German Koffing simply removes things they don't like losing to. They don't remove "randomness" from the game, so much as warp the metagame into what they personally like. It's arrogant and elitist and does nothing to change the fact that skillful, reliable manipulation of probability is the main aspect of battling in the game, not "predicting" your opponent and winning because a few of the prediction-hampering moves are removed.

 

[PSYCO829]

why dont you respond to everything i say i wonder?
i show you that courtesy, yet it isnt returned...
hmmm...

Nah. It gets mucky because people trample the title of "über" around on things which don't deserve it (Wynaut and, apparently, ****ing Phione). A change in nomenclature is all that's required, as the current system really isn't up to the task of labelling things.

smog on doesnt label phione as an uber
nintendo does
so the point of that paragraph was...

Indeed. It only swoops in to kill things you otherwise wouldn't have, possibly giving you wins you wouldn't ever have earned with inferior levels of prediction, because the only thing that displays skill apparently is prediction.

correct
i can beat ur entire team if i can predict your actions

Bull hockey.

As has been stated many times before, German Koffing simply removes things they don't like losing to. They don't remove "randomness" from the game, so much as warp the metagame into what they personally like. It's arrogant and elitist and does nothing to change the fact that skillful, reliable manipulation of probability is the main aspect of battling in the game, not "predicting" your opponent and winning because a few of the prediction-hampering moves are removed.

yes, they do
what about it?
dont like it? make ur own standard battle rules and host tournoments with them

 

[garsh0p]

Slaking should be a uber, ability or not. Turn one: stat buff. turn 3: Giga Impact, something died, no recharge because the ability kicks in, turn 5 Giga Impact until they win. That sounds pretty uber to me. Just the fact he can kill something every other turn. You could Baton Pass into him with some attack and defence boost on him so he won't die and sweep with him and he gets stab with his attacks.

Lati@s with Soul Dew is uber, so I don't use it so I can get them in tournaments but, I can't do that because people complain about their typing being too good because they don't have double weakness like most dragons do which is a good thing because Ice Beam won't kill them.

you're kidding about slaking.

i don't know why you consider losing a turn equivalent to "no recharge." that IS the same thing as recharge. slaking has to recharge on every single attack he does.

giga impact will get walled by any steel/ghost. killing something every OTHER turn is ridiculously slow.

 

[Marril]

smog on doesnt label phione as an uber
nintendo does

Banned does not mean "über." Anyone who seriously thinks this despite all common sense to the contrary is plainly retarded.

correct
i can beat ur entire team if i can predict your actions

Unless you fail to predict when an attack critical hits, or an attack with imperfect accuracy misses. Then you're not winning or losing due to skill, you're losing due to filthy, heinous, disgusting luck.

yes, they do
what about it?

They aren't playing Pokémon. They're playing "(German Koffing)'s Game That's Quite A Lot Like Pokémon But Isn't Actually Pokémon."

 

[PSYCO829]

once again disregarding most of my post and simply addressing a few points...

Banned does not mean "über." Anyone who seriously thinks this despite all common sense to the contrary is plainly retarded.

name me one banned pokemon who isnt uber under smog on rules

Unless you fail to predict when an attack critical hits, or an attack with imperfect accuracy misses. Then you're not winning or losing due to skill, you're losing due to filthy, heinous, disgusting luck.

yes, i am
it happens
powerful attacks are mitigated by low accuracy, stone edge and fire blast are a perfect example of this
as for critical hits, they happen
a good player will acknowledge the chance of this happening, and attempt to plan accordingly

They aren't playing Pokémon. They're playing "(German Koffing)'s Game That's Quite A Lot Like Pokémon But Isn't Actually Pokémon."

they are olaying pokemon under their rules, similar to how nintendo sets their own rules in a tournoment
smog on just happened to improve on nintendo's abysmal and silly rules

im starting to wonder if i should simply open up with "if you dont like their rules, dont play under them" just to see if it sinks in at all

 

[Marril]

name me one banned pokemon who isnt uber under smog on rules

So what became of "Phione is banned from Battle Tower, therefore it's über"?

a good player will acknowledge the chance of this happening, and attempt to plan accordingly

But they just can't accept that a low-accuracy OHKO attack will just happen, and attempt to plan accordingly?

Do I smell a double standard? I think I smell a double standard. It walks and talks and slithers on its belly like a double standard...

they are olaying pokemon under their rules, similar to how nintendo sets their own rules in a tournoment
smog on just happened to improve on nintendo's abysmal and silly rules

There's a difference here. Nintendo has real authority over the game. They distribute the game and are in charge of handling official tournaments. German Koffing is nothing more than a batch of pretentious players who shape the metagame to how they like it, Pokémon as a game be damned.

After all, you could get a whole bunch of people together who simply don't like the idea of four balls to a walk, and lower it to three. They could consist of fabulous baseball players and they could host big huge tournaments for their game and have all kinds of splendor... but it's not baseball anymore. This is what German Koffing does with Pokémon. It is not a hard concept—they aren't playing Pokémon, they're playing a derivative of it wrought through nothing more than house rules.

 

[PSYCO829]

*sigh* fine, ill start off saying it
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE SMOG ONS RULES, DONT ENTER THEIR TOURNOMENTS

So what became of "Phione is banned from Battle Tower, therefore it's über"?

i dont know, ive never said that

But they just can't accept that a low-accuracy OHKO attack will just happen, and attempt to plan accordingly?

tell me how you plan for bieng KO'd in one hit

Do I smell a double standard? I think I smell a double standard. It walks and talks and slithers on its belly like a double standard...

i dont smell anything
perhaps you just need a shower

There's a difference here. Nintendo has real authority over the game. They distribute the game and are in charge of handling official tournaments. German Koffing is nothing more than a batch of pretentious players who shape the metagame to how they like it, Pokémon as a game be damned.

nintendo knows how to run a DS tournoment about as well as ur average five year old
a toddler could take a look at phione and say "that thing sucks"
smog on's rules make much more sense

ur keep getting more and more angry with each post it seems
by page 8, ur gonna burst into flame...

After all, you could get a whole bunch of people together who simply don't like the idea of four balls to a walk, and lower it to three. They could consist of fabulous baseball players and they could host big huge tournaments for their game and have all kinds of splendor... but it's not baseball anymore. This is what German Koffing does with Pokémon. It is not a hard concept—they aren't playing Pokémon, they're playing a derivative of it wrought through nothing more than house rules.

sure, easily you could
but if people didnt like it, they wouldnt play
do you think smog on would be as popular as they are if people didnt like their rules? of course not
so, ill say it again
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE SMOG ONS RULES, DONT ENTER THEIR TOURNOMENTS[

 

[Marril]

tell me how you plan for bieng KO'd in one hit

Sturdy ability. Protect or Detect. Fly or the equivalent. Substitute. Freakin' Double Team a few times so the odds are too low to care about.

i dont smell anything
perhaps you just need a shower

Marrils smell of pure logic.

nintendo knows how to run a DS tournoment about as well as ur average five year old

Doesn't matter. They have legal rights to Pokémon. German Koffing doesn't. Thus, Nintendo has the authority to dictate tournament policy. German Koffing can only ever run fan tournaments with modified rules.

smog on's rules make much more sense

Removing arbitrary parts of the game makes no sense.

but if people didnt like it, they wouldnt play

A lot of games are played by people who don't specifically like them. MMORPGs are an example of this, as are TCGs at their highest levels (i.e. people who don't like the game, but who are good at it and like the prizes).

do you think smog on would be as popular as they are if people didnt like their rules?

I'm guessing that for a lot of people, it's less a case of "like their rules" and more, "well, these guys seem popular enough and everyone says they're the best, so they must know best."

 

[PSYCO829]

once again barely picking any of my posts to answer
pathetic...

Sturdy ability. Protect or Detect. Fly or the equivalent. Substitute. Freakin' Double Team a few times so the odds are too low to care about.

sturdy pokemon are all weak to water
sheer cold pokemon still own them

protect works great once
try it twice

fly fails when you land, so do all the others

sub is the only one you mentioned that even works, and it doesnt work on most pokemon (put sub on a weavile, see how well it works)

double team works after 4 or more time u use it
lets see...
30% are the odss it will first hit you
those odds turn to 25% with the first double team, and 20% after the second
after 4 times, its 15%
lets see...
64.3% chance of failure and a one hit ko
sounds good on paper, but fails in real life

Marrils smell of pure logic.

in what country is this?

Doesn't matter. They have legal rights to Pokémon. German Koffing doesn't. Thus, Nintendo has the authority to dictate tournament policy. German Koffing can only ever run fan tournaments with modified rules.

they can create all the tournoments they want, they still suck
and BTW, smog on DOES only run fun tournoments, people just often like their rules, and borrow them for their own tournoments
talk to those people, smog on has no influence over them

Removing arbitrary parts of the game makes no sense.

so, instead of stating further reasons for me to shot down like cheney does lawyers, you simply randomly throw that out there
wow...

A lot of games are played by people who don't specifically like them. MMORPGs are an example of this, as are TCGs at their highest levels (i.e. people who don't like the game, but who are good at it and like the prizes).

good for them
people LIKE PUI's rules for the game, thus they like going to tournoments
if they were to suddenly create a bunch of retarded rules that made the game very awkward or not fun to play, people WOULD work their own rules
and MMORPG players do often make their own tournoments with in that follow their own rules, i know a guy in world of warcraft who runs a fighting tournoment where yo must have a prarie chicken pet to enter

I'm guessing that for a lot of people, it's less a case of "like their rules" and more, "well, these guys seem popular enough and everyone says they're the best, so they must know best."

no, its more of the first case
keep thinking otherwise, i could care less

 

[vietgamer1021]

well

my slaking is a choice bander

and if slaking uses gig a impact, then theres an auto one turn to get killed my something for sure, since you cant retreate after a giga imapct, its not using slaking to the best of his ability

however, on a CB-ed Return, it alomost owns any pokemon for sure, stab plus CB and you can retreat the next turn, and most likely, slaking wont get OHKOed by a pursuit

its not an uber, cuz its stats are, then regigigas would be uber, and slow start absolutely sucks

 

[PSYCO829]

well

my slaking is a choice bander

and if slaking uses gig a impact, then theres an auto one turn to get killed my something for sure, since you cant retreate after a giga imapct, its not using slaking to the best of his ability

however, on a CB-ed Return, it alomost owns any pokemon for sure, stab plus CB and you can retreat the next turn, and most likely, slaking wont get OHKOed by a pursuit

its not an uber, cuz its stats are, then regigigas would be uber, and slow start absolutely sucks

um...
giga impact is a better option than return
it has higher base damage, and you lose a turn due to his ability anyway, so there is little reason to not use it

but i agree with ut other point, its ability makes it a non uber

 

[Cheater Hater]

This is getting to be to much running in circles. Let's take a step back and take stock of what we know:

There will always be two sets of "ubers:" A Nintendo set based on rarity and a competitive set based on power. While these set may overlap for the most part, they will have noticeable differences (Wobuffet, Phione, Jirachi, Celebi). These sets can be thrown out at either time on either side. Competitive players can change the lists based on testing (Jirachi and Celebi switching status) and Nintendo can make a list based on any factors (for example, Nintendo banned event-only Pokemon for the JAA).

OHKO's have barely any true counters against them: Protect and Fly aren't reliable or complete (plus Fissure goes through Dig), Sturdy's are countered by water/ground (almost always carried by OHKO users) and Double Team is still being debated as fair (where are those stats coming from PSYCO829?). Yes, Substitute (and Skarmory to a lesser extent) works, but a strategy just can't have one counter, or the metagame revolves around that relationship (that's what got Double Team banned in RBY and started this mess to begin with).

Finally, yes, German Koffing (as this specifically refers to them) makes their own rules. And yes, they are made to reduce some of the arbitrary luck in a Pokemon battle. You have to eventually accept this, not by looking at Double Team or OHKO's (which can be argued to possibly be overpowered, but by looking at an overlooked rule in their list (and in this topic): the ban on "hax" items (Focus Band, Quick Claw, Bright Powder, etc.). This is the one thing I can't defend, and the one I gladly "broke" at my JAA. In fact, they decided to remove item clause from their rules in RSEFRLG rather than introduce those items into the metagame.

The main problem with this is that they run the major share of tournaments for Pokemon, even if it's, as Marril calls it, the "Game That's Quite A Lot Like Pokémon But Isn't Actually Pokémon." While I have problems with the analogy (If the head of baseball decides to change the official rules to three balls, is the four-ball game not baseball anymore? That's somewhat similar to Nintendo's unique ban list for the JAA.), it is at least trying to explain the phenomena.

In conclusion, the only explanation I can see is that if you don't want to join them (and you obviously don't), you should try to beat them. Run a non-uber tournament and allow DT, OHKO's, hax items, and Wobuffet and see what happens. Run a specialty tournament where you ask people to break one of the above and see if anyone can. Just do something other than debating in circles all the time.

 

[garsh0p]

um...
giga impact is a better option than return
it has higher base damage, and you lose a turn due to his ability anyway, so there is little reason to not use it

but i agree with ut other point, its ability makes it a non uber

you can switch out after using return, but you can't after using giga impact if i recall correctly.

 

[vietgamer1021]

yeah thats wat i mean

so mayn things can hinder slaking i n that one turn he uses giga impact, since they have a choice to switch then

slaking is awesome with choice band

 

[Marril]

people LIKE PUI's rules for the game, thus they like going to tournoments

Way to totally miss the point.

You actually missed almost every point I made, but this is the most glaring.

but a strategy just can't have one counter, or the metagame revolves around that relationship (that's what got Double Team banned in RBY and started this mess to begin with)

Yet, with all the numerous counters to Double Team available, the RBY logic is still prevalent in the "DT is banned because it's always been banned" mindset, which even German Koffing was raring to cling to.

This is problematic, given that German Koffing is supposed to be the best.

If the head of baseball decides to change the official rules to three balls, is the four-ball game not baseball anymore? That's somewhat similar to Nintendo's unique ban list for the JAA.

The game is whatever its creators and maintainers make of it. If there existed someone with authority in the league to change the rules, then the changed rules would still be baseball.

 

[Cheater Hater]

Yet, with all the numerous counters to Double Team available, the RBY logic is still prevalent in the "DT is banned because it's always been banned" mindset, which even German Koffing was raring to cling to.

This is problematic, given that German Koffing is supposed to be the best.

You have now missed my point. The purpose of that statement was not to defend a Double Team ban, it was to justify an OHKO ban, if there is only one way to counter it.

The game is whatever its creators and maintainers make of it. If there existed someone with authority in the league to change the rules, then the changed rules would still be baseball.

I know the changed rules would still be baseball. I asked if the former rules would still be baseball.

 

[vaporeon]

There are still ways you can counter Double Team and OHKOs, just like there are way to counter everything else, you just have to use it.