Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Lets talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games

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Isn't that the definition of an Uber--good stats and a good movepool?

Stat total 680. There was a big huge debate thread a while back about the definition of an über.

They might parse as having a really high attack stat, but that doesn't change that they don't actually have a high stat total. In the real game, not theory given from parsing, you're basically screwed a lot more from having only OHKO attacks as opposed to versatile other attacks. Not to mention that real übers hit so hard they average faster kills regardless.

If you look at that chart, you see your tank has to get at least two moves in, even if it's slower, which is a 51% chance of a knockout (with percentages getting larger with more moves).

Each round, your accuracy doesn't change. That is to say, you can expect that, over time, each battle in which you Sheer Cold successively two turns in a row will result in a KO 51% of the time. In an individual battle, this may not occur. But for the sake of argument, let's take a tournament's worth of battling as a statistically significant number of battles, and project that you get a KO in two turns roughly 50% of the time. This means that you're liable to win a match about half the time, assuming your opponents are using high-powered attackers. This isn't a statistic that's overpowering in any sense of the word. That said, how does this compare to a high attack sweeper's power? Do they average a KO in two turns 50% of the time, or does a sufficiently-powered sweeper average a two-turn kill 75% or even 90% of the time? Your table is still incomplete in that regard.

However, using Double Team with Baton Pass, especially when you have a BP'er that you know can take a hit (Umbreon), circumvents that idea. When you pass DT to one of those fragile sweepers you keep mentioning, you have high attack and "high" multipurpose defense--overpowered.

And you've been doing nothing to prevent this from occurring? You've not tried to disrupt their strategy at all? It's a powerful strategy, I admit, but not such an overpowering one that you're dead the moment Umbreon comes out.

Did you even read my entire post??

Yes.

I JUST said that if you're allowed to use DT/Minimize in an event, DO IT. Just know that you will be hated on

Yes, this is entirely what I was saying. You'll be "hated on" entirely because German Koffing style elitists only want to lose to things they want to lose to. They don't want to lose to a strategy they see as "cheap" or requiring less skill than they want to project as the game requiring.

But what takes more skill is realizing when to use a complex strategy, and when to use a simpler one.

And I didn't call the moves hax. Hax are having starter Pokemon in Master Balls with incredible IVs, or Pokemon with Abilities they don't really get in-game (I read about someone who played against a Starmie with Pressure.) Gameshark, Pro Action Replay...HAX.

Several of the German Koffing posters linked to referred to things like Double Team being particularly more potent than average, or OHKOs landing more frequently than statistically average "hax," so you can see where I made this assumption.

Really, who's the elitist here?

The elitists are the one who want to shape the game into their perfect little vision of it, rather than just accept that Gamefreak made a game one way and they'd really rather it be another.
 
That is so flat-up retarded that, frankly, I'm stunned. Completely, absolutely stunned.

EDIT: To clarify myself, no, "D/P" doesn't consider it "über" because of that. DiaPer calls nothing "über." It's retarded players that call Phione "über" based on the Battle Tower blocking it.
 
An OHKO (especially Sheer Cold) is versatile because it works the same against every Pokemon. When the other best move (Seismic Toss/Night Shade) is a 4 or 5 hit KO at best, it's overpowered. If you want rough calculations (based on 3 normal hits with "Fire Blast" base, critical 1/16), it would KO in 2 turns very roughly 4.5% of the time in 2 hits, 66.6% of the time in 3, 75.9% in 4. For comparison, for Flamethrower, it would be 0.4% in 2, 6.6% in 3, and hopefully 100% in 4. Again, those are very rough numbers.

With regard to DT BP Umbreon, what is supposed to happen is that you bring out (or even lead with) Umbreon and start Double Teaming. Umbreon has such high defenses so it simply can't be knocked out in one conventional hit, allowing you to DT 2-3 times. You're slower than the opponent, so you'll BP in your fast, fragile sweeper so nothing can hit it. You then can sweep, relying on DT to allow you to hopefully knock out most if not all of your opponent's team. How would you counter that?
 
Haze them. Toxic them. Basically, disrupt their strategy. If your idea of "disrupt their strategy" is just "attack them," then clearly you aren't even trying to counter them. That's called ignoring their strategy altogether.

Either way, I'm wondering where you get your numbers for "Fire Blast" mode killing in 2 turns 4.5% of the time. Are we talking against something like Umbreon, or something with insane Shuckle-like defense? Are we talking a normal effective attack, or an available super-effective attack? Is a "sweeper" attacking, or something with low offensive stats? The problem is that we can gauge OHKOs in an absolute sense—barring evasion buffs/enfeebles, the only variable is how often they hit. For damaging attacks, we can only pick an approximation and guess (and if we're really good we can include an uncertainty). We're comparing precise numbers to horribly imprecise numbers. However, all that said, compare the 0.657 chance that OHKOs kill on turn three, to the 0.666 chance the "Fire Blast" approximation manages. If we assume even the same ballpark, it's not that far off—the only discrepancy is the two-turn kill. But I'm not taking either number as absolute, as they're simply approximations.

Something like Machamp hitting Umbreon with Cross Chop makes it hard to Double Team three or four times, after all. Then again, a Gyarados trying to kill it with Fire Blast will be there a very long time.
 
THE LIST OF UBERS
MEWTWO
MEW
WOBBOFFET
LUGIA
HO-OH
LATIOS
LATIAS
GROUDON
KYOGRE
RAYQUAZA
DEOXYS
PALKAI
DIALGA
GIRATINA
DARKRAI
ARCUES

these are the uber pokemon, now lets get back on topic

and if you have a question about "why is blabla and uber" or "how come blabla isnt on the list", pm me


marril, stop looking at people's post and only taking one thing they say and using it completely out of context as an arguement while disregarding the other points they made
it gets annoying very quickly
 
you did it with absolutions, and twice with my posts
i will check again, i might be three times
perhaps you are unaware of your actions in this matter?
 
THE LIST OF UBERS
MEWTWO
MEW
WOBBOFFET
LUGIA
HO-OH
LATIOS
LATIAS
GROUDON
KYOGRE
RAYQUAZA
DEOXYS
PALKAI
DIALGA
GIRATINA
DARKRAI
ARCUES

these are the uber pokemon, now lets get back on topic

and if you have a question about "why is blabla and uber" or "how come blabla isnt on the list", pm me


marril, stop looking at people's post and only taking one thing they say and using it completely out of context as an arguement while disregarding the other points they made
it gets annoying very quickly

Latias and Latios are only Uber with Soul Dew. With out it, the are standard OU Pokemon. Wobboffet should not be on the list because they fix the problem.
 
wobboffet is an uber because of his ability combined with his attacks, he was banned because of stall outs
latios and latias are ubers beause they have all the best attacks of two types, and dont have the limits of them
an examply is out usual powerful dragons, garchomp and salamence
the lati's have comparable stats to them, but chomp and sally have a double weakness, something the lati's dont
soul dew doesnt do it, i mean thick bone didnt get marowak out of here
 
Just because they don't have double weakness does not make them Uber. Garchomp And Salamence should be Uber because they are way to powerful.
 
Latis with Soul Dew actually have an effective stat total of 680, thus making them über.

Also you can't have a Wobbuffet stall-out anymore, so it's a moot point.
 
Just because they don't have double weakness does not make them Uber. Garchomp And Salamence should be Uber because they are way to powerful.

garchomp and salamence should NOT be uber...

the latis have a much larger movepool and are much more resilient than garchomp and salamence.
 
Latias and Latios are okay as long as they don't have Soul Dew.

i don't understand how you can call garchomp and salamence uber material, but say the latis are ok. the latis can do what garchomp and salamence can do, and so much more, not to mention live alot longer. this is NOT including soul dew.
 
Well, a good Physical Sweeper can take them out and Garchomp and Salamence can do that and they can be just as Uber if they have an item that increases power or any stats. So its the Items that make a Pokemon Uber as well. Just not moveset and stats.
 
Also you can't have a Wobbuffet stall-out anymore, so it's a moot point.
wobbs was never for stalling
he was for this
you use a move
wobbs, encore
you're stuck with a move

i send out charizard
you use selected move
i use belly drum
you still use selected move, or encore wears out now
if it doesnt wear out, i rest chersto, and now i have a max attack charizard will full health ready to crush you
THAT is why it was broken
Well, a good Physical Sweeper can take them out and Garchomp and Salamence can do that and they can be just as Uber if they have an item that increases power or any stats. So its the Items that make a Pokemon Uber as well. Just not moveset and stats.

a good physical sweeper will die from the lati's massive special attack stat and very impressive speed =/
 
Haze is fine to counter it, but Toxic isn't that good of a counter, as it doesn't KO that fast (and Umbreon has Synchronize). Besides, I'm pretty sure that no non-OHKO attack can do a one-hit knockout on a properly EVed Umbreon (maybe a critical, I'm not sure). Remember that if you switch, that's one DT, which often is enough. I'd assume you'd BP after 2 DT max either way (unless you knew you could safely pass more).

My rough assumptions were based on the idea that with a neutral matchup, it takes three standard hits with a "Fire Blast" to knockout a defensive tank, based on assumptions we made earlier in this topic. The 2HKO comes from 2 Fire Blasts which both hit, and one is a critical hit (1/16 I assumed). This translates to .85*.85*.0625=about .045. Anything wrong with those numbers? When you calculate favorable matchups, remember that a switch is pretty much the same as a move, so even if a 3HKO becomes a 2HKO, it's still three moves total. Still, with a favorable switch, it should be 5.3% for a "1"HKO and 72.3% for a "2"HKO.
 
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