Nationals new players/younger players (ripping)

[Naki Feralkin]

I've taught a lot of my players and league members that value is a pretty important thing, and there are times that they do come to Heather and myself for trade advice: "Is this a good trade? Am I getting ripped off? etc."

That, honestly is how the player base should be. You can gauge and educate pretty much anyone if you're interested. I'm neutral on the whole topic as a whole, because I don't think the OP should be going after grassy as a whole, even if I frown on how Grassy is painting himself here.

My opinion on this is as such. Let the kids handle their own trades.. If you feel someone is MALICIOUSLY getting an upper hand out of it, then you might be wise to step in (I am absolutely opposed to the idea of policing trades, but there are some people out there who will try to rip people off for their own personal gain.. I know someone in Ohio who will do that and I try to keep people away from them as much as possible.), but I do find it rude as a whole to step in on any trade unless you are their parent or guardian. I know I've been in the middle of normal trades just trying to get a good card for a good card, and then I get some other jerk who tries to cut in in the middle of my trade to get the card for themselves. I understand if you're stepping in if I'm being unfair, and I would likely step off if I was, because I try to follow normal trade guidelines as much as possible (My girlfriend being a seller and all),

There is another situation however, that I usually address, and thats just the fact of the kids just not wanting anything else and just pawning off to pawn off. I've had a few occasions in which I've needed a card from a kid and they just find one card and they're willing to just get rid of it. It boggles my mind but I always ask them to find more cards of mine that they want. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and they just say: "I think thats a fair trade." I eventually do manage to give them more cards, but is it morally wrong for me to take the trade if they just want the card I have for their card if they think its fair? I don't find it morally right to force them to take other things they don't want if they think its fair. I even let them know that the card they're giving away is really valuable, but to some, it really is nothing more than a card of their favorite character and that could be the world to them. (I've been known to overgiving cards myself to continue a personal collection of my own, tbh), and thats why I don't think its always right to be policing, either.

Don't paint me as a bad dude here, I always let the kids know of their values, and sometimes, they just plain out don't care. Is it wrong of me to let them have what they want for what I want? I think not.

On the flip side, Grassy, I think you know full well what you are doing and you ARE really taking advantage of it from what you are saying. I really don't think this is right at all. Some kids do do as you say and know they don't want that card for something else, but it doesn't even seem like you're giving them a chance to find out. You really outta take a look at what you do from another perspective. I'm not trying to get on your case as people are doing that a lot to you in this topic, but seriously man, you need to take some more consideration here. I've seen another guy in this area try to do that as a whole, and he's not very well liked by those who know what he does.

 

[PokeChump]

I've taught a lot of my players and league members that value is a pretty important thing, and there are times that they do come to Heather and myself for trade advice: "Is this a good trade? Am I getting ripped off? etc."

That, honestly is how the player base should be. You can gauge and educate pretty much anyone if you're interested. I'm neutral on the whole topic as a whole, because I don't think the OP should be going after grassy as a whole, even if I frown on how Grassy is painting himself here.

My opinion on this is as such. Let the kids handle their own trades.. If you feel someone is MALICIOUSLY getting an upper hand out of it, then you might be wise to step in (I am absolutely opposed to the idea of policing trades, but there are some people out there who will try to rip people off for their own personal gain.. I know someone in Ohio who will do that and I try to keep people away from them as much as possible.), but I do find it rude as a whole to step in on any trade unless you are their parent or guardian. I know I've been in the middle of normal trades just trying to get a good card for a good card, and then I get some other jerk who tries to cut in in the middle of my trade to get the card for themselves. I understand if you're stepping in if I'm being unfair, and I would likely step off if I was, because I try to follow normal trade guidelines as much as possible (My girlfriend being a seller and all),

There is another situation however, that I usually address, and thats just the fact of the kids just not wanting anything else and just pawning off to pawn off. I've had a few occasions in which I've needed a card from a kid and they just find one card and they're willing to just get rid of it. It boggles my mind but I always ask them to find more cards of mine that they want. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and they just say: "I think thats a fair trade." I eventually do manage to give them more cards, but is it morally wrong for me to take the trade if they just want the card I have for their card if they think its fair? I don't find it morally right to force them to take other things they don't want if they think its fair. I even let them know that the card they're giving away is really valuable, but to some, it really is nothing more than a card of their favorite character and that could be the world to them. (I've been known to overgiving cards myself to continue a personal collection of my own, tbh), and thats why I don't think its always right to be policing, either.

Don't paint me as a bad dude here, I always let the kids know of their values, and sometimes, they just plain out don't care. Is it wrong of me to let them have what they want for what I want? I think not.

On the flip side, Grassy, I think you know full well what you are doing and you ARE really taking advantage of it from what you are saying. I really don't think this is right at all. Some kids do do as you say and know they don't want that card for something else, but it doesn't even seem like you're giving them a chance to find out. You really outta take a look at what you do from another perspective. I'm not trying to get on your case as people are doing that a lot to you in this topic, but seriously man, you need to take some more consideration here. I've seen another guy in this area try to do that as a whole, and he's not very well liked by those who know what he does.

I understand what your point of view is, and you're not a bad dude, but lets say a kid wants a trade from you. You look in the binder find something decent, then he looks in your book, finds 1 card he wants, you know the deal isn't fair on his part, YOU should (being the older more mature person that knows) educate them on what's going on because if there willing to trade what they chose, they must not know to much, so its better to TRY and educate them before you go any farther, if at the end there still satisfied with whats going on, there parents don't care or what ever it may be, what else can you do? Its still the best thing to educate them IF they don't know.

Also, I'm sorry if I put to much down on Grassy then I should have, but when you pretty much openly tell everyone you rip kids off and your good at it, then it might raise some attention with other people, but I'm still sorry to who'm ever seen my actions against him to much, and also sorry to Grassy if he feels that I'm to harsh.

---------- Post added 06/22/2011 at 06:29 PM ----------

*sigh* If you're just going to resort to emotional arguments rather than retaliate any of our arguments, then there's point in talking to you. My problem with morality is that so many people use it as a way for people to try to assert themselves as better than others, like you guys are doing now. You can't accept that someone sees life differently from you, and you attack with anger.

My argument is extremely valid, so much so that you haven't countered it yet. Little kids either don't care about values, or don't have the attention span to try to understand them. That ability Emboar may be great for them starting a fire deck, but they have their heart set on using their Lilligant and I can't change their mind. Most of them will also leave the game before they even get to middle school, and all of those good cards will end up in a shoebox, which will eventually end up as a lot on ebay in 5-10 years. How many players can you name that have stayed with the game consistently (not taking year-long breaks from the game) from the time they were a kid? There aren't very many at all because a vast majority (I'd say at least 90%) quit before then and there's nothing you can do. No one in this thread has really made any valid points against my arguments, just sneered at them. Foolish me, thinking that I could have an educated debate via the internet.

Keep looking down on others from your high horse; go ahead. I think it's pitiful that you find a need to, because I don't need to judge others online to make myself feel better... which whether you deny it or not, is why you're doing it. Otherwise, why would you bother typing it out?

All you're doing is painting an evil picture of me to make what you say seem meaningful. "All they care about is themselves". Really? I guess that's why I'm saving up my money to buy my mom a nice piece of jewelry after hers got stolen when our house got broken into last year. Or how I spent hours learning how to make a cake shaped like a chain chomp for my boyfriend because it's his favorite mario character. Or, how I volunteered at the humane society in my spare time. But no, it's easier to attack a monster than to try to put a face on it. I haven't once assumed that you are a bible-thumping priest with a collar so high it blocks your vision - I'm arguing with you as if you were a rational human being but you don't afford me the same thing. You make assumptions about me and who I am based on one little thing - can you imagine what life would be like if everyone did that? If I picked out one little thing from your life and made a sea of bad assumptions about you based on it? You act as if you've never done anything questionable. What's that saying... let he who has not sinned cast the first stone? You're doing a lot of casting...

I'm not going to bother to come back to this thread. If you can't treat me with the respect I treat you, and are going to resort to high-school level argument, then I have no reason to bother with you... my time is more valuable than that.

All your bringing up is the same things everyone else has, your bringing in values/kids not caring/ your real life duties, reason I myself haven't replied after your first or second post is because there has been people already replying to you as well. When did I make any assumptions about you? If you take offense to something that didn't have your name in it why are you coming at me? I will address you as you, not as a 3rd party, then you're going to try to down grade me about high school level argument, and ignoring you? Come with a valid subject about the actual topic at hand, and not how your buying jewelry. Bring something on here that does have to do with the actual topic, not about kids that will quit the game, your debate is going away from the actual topic, you're coming at me about stuff that doesn't pertain to the actual topic. The topic is what the debate is about, not you telling me I make bad assumptions.

I do understand some of what you have brought up, and I do respect you for it, if that's what your looking for.

The young players time in and out of the game still gives no body that is older and has more knowledge the excuse or right to take advantage of them instead of TRYING to teach them about what actually is going on.

 

[Viva piñata]

Your intentions are good but you might make alot of people mad at you if you butt into a trade they are in. Me personally i would be a little offended and mad if you jumped inbetween me and a trader seeing if its fair or not its just not right. And if someone is really ripping someone off inform a judge or someone watching the trade area or play area thats helping run the event its there job to make sure nothing bad is happening. Plus I dont think your going to find a massive amount of masters trying to trade junoirs mostly because theyll know b4 looking at the kids book they have nothing so. Also it sounds like your paying hundreds of dollars to go to nats to play and moderate trades ??? that doesnt sound fun at all does it so why bother ???

 

[PokeChump]

Your intentions are good but you might make alot of people mad at you if you butt into a trade they are in. Me personally i would be a little offended and mad if you jumped inbetween me and a trader seeing if its fair or not its just not right. And if someone is really ripping someone off inform a judge or someone watching the trade area or play area thats helping run the event its there job to make sure nothing bad is happening. Plus I dont think your going to find a massive amount of masters trying to trade junoirs mostly because theyll know b4 looking at the kids book they have nothing so. Also it sounds like your paying hundreds of dollars to go to nats to play and moderate trades ??? that doesnt sound fun at all does it so why bother ???

Never did imply that I'm going to watch others trades, IF I did notice someone (older/veteran player), trading a younger/newer player and ACTUALLY seeing that there giving a HootHoot for a Mew Prime, then something could be said or implied to the older/veteran trader. I'm going to Nationals to play, have a good time, make new friends, do what ever else there is to do at Nationals. There is no need to bring someone else into it unless there parent is present and wants to know whats going on, because then if lets say a judge or someone higher up got involved and they looked at what someone did was wrong, someone could get kicked from the event and there is no need for that.

 

[chrataxe]

To the OP: Not once ANYWHERE in this thread has ANYONE actually condoned ripping kids off, nor has anyone said they proactively, willfully, intentionally, or maliciously rip kids off or seek to rip kids off. So, I think you are being quite unfair to everyone in this thread that stands in a position you disagree with.

Let me preface my opinion with this: As a LO, I go out of my way to ensure my trades are pretty fair for both sides. I also buy a lot of stuff in bulk on Ebay so that I can give away. And, generally speaking, unless it is a highly sought after meta card that someone wants from me, I just give it to them. Just recently, we had 2 new players come in. I gave one a 4-4-4 Kingdra line with 2 primes because she said her favorite Pokemon was Seadra. Her friend's favorite Pokemon is Eevee, so I gave here just about every eeveelution I had, to include 2 Moonlite Fang Umbreon and 2 Espeon Prime. I am very generous...very. And, I have neer ripped anyone off.

But, I'm not ignorant. I judged a BR the other day. There was only one Junior there, so he won the Vicotry Medal by default. The kid went 0-3 for the day and had never played Pokemon before, but came with his older brother. The TO gave him a starter deck. More than anything, I wanted that kid's VM. But, I didn't feel it was appropriate, thus the reason it is probably sitting at the bottom of his closet right now. But, lets be honest, which would he rather have: a Victory Medal, or a handful of his favorite Pokemon? We had a new kid in league the other day. He had a new Tangrowth starter deck and the pack that came with it. He pulled a rare Groudon and put it in his 65 card deck with ZERO fighting energy.Later in the game, he informed me that my Burned Tower protected both of our Pokemon, his friend told him so. He also informed me that I was in big trouble when his Groudon finally made its way to his bench. My point is, don't confuse YOUR experience for the KID'S experience. Just because Pokemon is a competition with valuable cards to YOU doesn't mean that is what the kids take away from it. I'm not condoning ripping kids off, but kids honestly have no idea of value. I once offered a kid two packs of unopened prerelease sleeves for a Mewtwo X promo. At worst, it was even. At best, I was offering him twice what his end was worth. But, he "didn't want to trade MEWTWO!!! for sleeves!"

Lets not forgot that the game is supposed to be fun. Yeah, we should be overly nice to kids. But, if a person has a card someone wants and the kid wants to rip himself off for a stupid card the person has, are you implying they shouldn't trade? Cause, for the record, you keep saying "that's not what I'm talking about" yet you keep bashing every opposing opinion saying they are intentionally ripping kids of and bragging about it afterwards, yet NO ONE has said that in this thread.

For the record:

val·ue   
[val-yoo] Show IPA
noun, verb, -ued, -u·ing.
–noun
1.
relative worth, merit, or importance: the value of a college education; the value of a queen in chess.
2.
monetary or material worth, as in commerce or trade: This piece of land has greatly increased in value.
3.
the worth of something in terms of the amount of other things for which it can be exchanged or in terms of some medium of exchange.

There is a HUGE difference in MONETARY value and value. When you bring in monetary value and the kid doesn't care, its like saying you're ripping the kid off because your giving him 1 apple for 5 oranges, but in reality, maybe the kid is just tired of oranges and wants a change of pace for a minute...that's not really ripping him off. Lets remember, we pay GOOD money for PIECES OF CARDBOARD, we could easily argue that TPCi is ripping us off. Yet, I willing give them my money and never complain.

Let me part with this:

Excuse me Professor Einstein, does Boston stop at this train?

"Value" and "being ripped off" is relative to your perspective.

 

[Viva piñata]

Exactly! you just said there no need to butt in so why do it ??? If a parents concerned there not going to rush to you for advice they will go to the judges in a snazy red and black shirt !!! Now if the judge or the higher ups see fit to kick them out so be it, that one less person trying to rip a little kid off. But seriously the person would have to do something seriously wrong to get kicked from the event lol they might tell the guy to leave the area or write him up who knows ? Now your right if you see a serious problem with a trade like the junoir has a card worth 40$ and the guys tring to give him a 2-4$ card then ya just tell the kid your cards worth 36 more $ than what hes willing to give you, thats it dont lecture the guy or dont even speek to him then if he proceeds to try and rip him off get a judge and case closed ...



edit also if the judges where busy which more than likley they are they will probably point to a judge thats playing or someone that knows about trading and values thats trusted ....

 

[PokeDad]

"I think it's pitiful that you... I don't need to judge others"

Contradiction excised and quoted for those that found the last post TL;DR

Tone it down a bit. Advocating ripping off children is not likely to make a lot of friends here.

The thread has gone on for five pages. Just about everything that can be said has been said on the topic of ripping kids off in a trade.

Come up with something new, something interesting, something worthwhile, or let this thread die.

Swordfish talked about a high horse, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a dead horse, and I'm leaning toward locking this thread to save an expired equine from additional punishment.

Prove me wrong, show me there is something new, interesting, intelligent, or thoughtful left to say on the subject of taking advantage of children as it applies to trading card trades.

Thanks.

 

[PokeChump]

Contradiction excised and quoted for those that found the last post TL;DR

Tone it down a bit. Advocating ripping off children is not likely to make a lot of friends here.

The thread has gone on for five pages. Just about everything that can be said has been said on the topic of ripping kids off in a trade.

Come up with something new, something interesting, something worthwhile, or let this thread die.

Swordfish talked about a high horse, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a dead horse, and I'm leaning toward locking this thread to save an expired equine from additional punishment.

Prove me wrong, show me there is something new, interesting, intelligent, or thoughtful left to say on the subject of taking advantage of children as it applies to trading card trades.

Thanks.

Feel free to lock it if you must, I've already stated that everything has already been brought up, asking for something new on the subject.

 

[Jaeger]

*sigh* If you're just going to resort to emotional arguments rather than retaliate any of our arguments, then there's point in talking to you. My problem with morality is that so many people use it as a way for people to try to assert themselves as better than others, like you guys are doing now. You can't accept that someone sees life differently from you, and you attack with anger.

My argument is extremely valid, so much so that you haven't countered it yet. Little kids either don't care about values, or don't have the attention span to try to understand them. That ability Emboar may be great for them starting a fire deck, but they have their heart set on using their Lilligant and I can't change their mind. Most of them will also leave the game before they even get to middle school, and all of those good cards will end up in a shoebox, which will eventually end up as a lot on ebay in 5-10 years. How many players can you name that have stayed with the game consistently (not taking year-long breaks from the game) from the time they were a kid? There aren't very many at all because a vast majority (I'd say at least 90%) quit before then and there's nothing you can do. No one in this thread has really made any valid points against my arguments, just sneered at them. Foolish me, thinking that I could have an educated debate via the internet.

Keep looking down on others from your high horse; go ahead. I think it's pitiful that you find a need to, because I don't need to judge others online to make myself feel better... which whether you deny it or not, is why you're doing it. Otherwise, why would you bother typing it out?

All you're doing is painting an evil picture of me to make what you say seem meaningful. "All they care about is themselves". Really? I guess that's why I'm saving up my money to buy my mom a nice piece of jewelry after hers got stolen when our house got broken into last year. Or how I spent hours learning how to make a cake shaped like a chain chomp for my boyfriend because it's his favorite mario character. Or, how I volunteered at the humane society in my spare time. But no, it's easier to attack a monster than to try to put a face on it. I haven't once assumed that you are a bible-thumping priest with a collar so high it blocks your vision - I'm arguing with you as if you were a rational human being but you don't afford me the same thing. You make assumptions about me and who I am based on one little thing - can you imagine what life would be like if everyone did that? If I picked out one little thing from your life and made a sea of bad assumptions about you based on it? You act as if you've never done anything questionable. What's that saying... let he who has not sinned cast the first stone? You're doing a lot of casting...

I'm not going to bother to come back to this thread. If you can't treat me with the respect I treat you, and are going to resort to high-school level argument, then I have no reason to bother with you... my time is more valuable than that.

I don't know if you have siblings or not, but lets say you have a younger brother and I rip him off horribly by trading him some bad rare for his boring old Magnezone Prime. Would you be mad? Would you feel I took advantage of him? Would there be a double standard if you knew the person getting ripped off?

 

[PokeDad]

The thread has gone on for five pages. Just about everything that can be said has been said on the topic of ripping kids off in a trade.

Come up with something new, something interesting, something worthwhile, or let this thread die.

Swordfish talked about a high horse, but I'm thinking more along the lines of a dead horse, and I'm leaning toward locking this thread to save an expired equine from additional punishment.

Prove me wrong, show me there is something new, interesting, intelligent, or thoughtful left to say on the subject of taking advantage of children as it applies to trading card trades.

Feel free to lock it if you must, I've already stated that everything has already been brought up, asking for something new on the subject.

Fairly amusing, but I just realized this isn't even my thread to mod. That said, with the OP offering that a thread lock wouldn't end his world, I hope a forum mod jumps on the opportunity.

 

[PokeChump]

Fairly amusing, but I just realized this isn't even my thread to mod. That said, with the OP offering that a thread lock wouldn't end his world, I hope a forum mod jumps on the opportunity.

Well of course unless there is going to be a sensible debate on something that hasn't been brought into it already. Unless justifying that getting the better deal over a kid that doesn't know is fine over and over again just in different context then there shouldn't be a need to keep it open, unless there going to bring something different into the debate but still pertaining to the topic.

It does interest me on how you view this subject, if you'd like to add something be my guest. Still pertaining to the topic of course.

 

[mine is cooler]

im gunna bring a stack of rotated RH wailords, rip off all the snot nosed kids, and leave with $10,000 worth of donphan, machamp. and magnezone primes!! BWAHAHAA >

 

[PokeChump]

im gunna bring a stack of rotated RH wailords, rip off all the snot nosed kids, and leave with $10,000 worth of donphan, machamp. and magnezone primes!! BWAHAHAA >

That's a lot of RH Wailord, and assuming you'd have to rip off over 5,000 kids, there want even be that many people in total... Do something better with your time, like learning to read or to ride a bicycle.

 

[grassmaster239]

or learning that kids don't want wailords. Bring other bad rares

 

[n00bmuffin]

Kids like legendaries. They love legendaries.

 

[grassmaster239]

call of crap was made so that you can rip kids off for the Rayquazas that are awesome because they can do 100

 

[PokeChump]

call of crap was made so that you can rip kids off for the Rayquazas that are awesome because they can do 100

I honestly Like Rayquaza, its a card I'm collecting aswell, CoL fire/lighting Rayquaza could be a tech in Magneboar, aside from that, Its a cheap card... Also I can tell this is pretty much going into "joke mode" so I'm not even going to reply with a sensible dispute of why you shouldn't rip kids off with Legendary/Rayquazas...

 

[grassmaster239]

But.. It is a legendary. It has to be worth more then some little electric squirrel

 

[PokeChump]

But.. It is a legendary. It has to be worth more then some little electric squirrel

ok, give me 20 Rayquaza for my eletric squirrel? :lol:

 

[DarkStar20]

Fairly amusing, but I just realized this isn't even my thread to mod. That said, with the OP offering that a thread lock wouldn't end his world, I hope a forum mod jumps on the opportunity.

I'm not planning on locking the thread. I am however planning on asking around to see who a couple of the people posting in this thread are at nats, and advising all those who I care about to avoid trading with them.

-Jason
dark::colorless:20)