Net decking and SotG...

[LionheartEX]

Hey all,

I spend a TON of time building, tearing, rebuilding decks to ensure that I get the MAXIMUM out of every card I put in there. I do this so that I may excel in this game with every tournament I play in. I have a serious problem with people who put NO time, money or EFFORT into the game.

I am tired of these people who come to the gym, pull a list, and bomb at a tournament. Then proceed to come back here and BASH the person who posted it in the first place looking for HELP!!! The deck forum is a HELPforum. Not a place to post up a list that has already been proven. Why would I want to post a list that I spent several weeks perfecting so some NEWB could take it and bomb with it???

While there are some that think we should post ALL lists available, I disagree.

I think netdecking itself is breaking the spirit of the game!!! THIEVES!!!

Discuss
jimmy

dont need to read the rest of the thread! QFT!!!

It's hard trying to be original though... you get bagged for it if you don't win. Netdecking was the problem with worlds last year... so much LBS, Queendom and Raieggs :nonono:

P.S. thanks for signing my eeveelution exs at worlds lol

 

[[R]Visitor]

How?

Example 1: Going to states, 4 of the 6 games I play are all against the same deck. Boring. No creativity. It's boring. It's predictable. It's old.

Example 2: League. Some new kid showed up, he's obviously spoiled rotten. He has a bunch of current arch-type decks. During tournaments, he picks which one will have a type advantage over other decks (usually after asking what type his opponent is playing.) He barely knows how to play the game, forgets to discard for certain supporters, tries to evolve first turn, etc. He ends up beating lots of the other kids even know they're more skilled and familer with the rules, they run their own decks and mommy and daddy don't buy them every card on ebay. This kid barely knows how to play the game, is very arrogant and pompus, but ends up winning games because he copied all of the easy arch-type decks out there. If a deck beats him at league, he'll come back the next week or so with a copy-cat of that deck as well.

Example 3: People on pokegym so wound up in using other people's decks that they can't respect people who make their own decks. I can give mountains of examples of people like this. Of course, on pokegym, I always get the short end of the stick when it comes to justice, so there's no real reason to report people trolling.

Netdecking ruins the game for lots of us. Why does PUI even make sets of 100+ cards, when nobody uses them. An arch-type pops up, people neglect every other card in the set. They don't bother thinking of new combinations or anything. Worse yet, is people who net-deck are rewarded with victories they didn't even earn. Do you think the kid who won @ worlds with mewtrick created the deck? Of course not. LBS? Of course not. Eeeveelutions? Definetly not. Every deck I played in the grinder was flariados or eeveelutions. Pathetic, boring, stale, old. It was a WORLD tournament, and I saw all the same decks I see at city champ's. Hoo-rah.

 

[dld4a]

Example 1: Going to states, 4 of the 6 games I play are all against the same deck. Boring. No creativity. It's boring. It's predictable. It's old.

That should just make it easier to metagame the tourney.

Example 2: League. Some new kid showed up, he's obviously spoiled rotten. He has a bunch of current arch-type decks. During tournaments, he picks which one will have a type advantage over other decks (usually after asking what type his opponent is playing.) He barely knows how to play the game, forgets to discard for certain supporters, tries to evolve first turn, etc. He ends up beating lots of the other kids even know they're more skilled and familer with the rules, they run their own decks and mommy and daddy don't buy them every card on ebay. This kid barely knows how to play the game, is very arrogant and pompus, but ends up winning games because he copied all of the easy arch-type decks out there. If a deck beats him at league, he'll come back the next week or so with a copy-cat of that deck as well.

eventually this will stop working for him. Kids will refuse to play him, and they should stop tewlling him what deck they are using right away. Tell them that a good player should not ask his/her opponent what deck he/she is using at league because they should be practicing for tournaments where you'll not get that advantage.

Example 3: People on pokegym so wound up in using other people's decks that they can't respect people who make their own decks. I can give mountains of examples of people like this. Of course, on pokegym, I always get the short end of the stick when it comes to justice, so there's no real reason to report people trolling.

I see a whole lot more new deck attempts in the deck forums than you suggest.

Netdecking ruins the game for lots of us. Why does PUI even make sets of 100+ cards, when nobody uses them. An arch-type pops up, people neglect every other card in the set. They don't bother thinking of new combinations or anything. Worse yet, is people who net-deck are rewarded with victories they didn't even earn.

I love net deckers. It makes tourneys easier to metagame.:smile:

Do you think the kid who won @ worlds with mewtrick created the deck? Of course not.

Jason? Yea pretty much, I think. He at least made it his own that's for sure.

LBS? Of course not.

O.K. probably not here, but who cares?

Eeeveelutions? Definetly not.

Yes Jimmy did make that deck!!!

Every deck I played in the grinder was flariados or eeveelutions. Pathetic, boring, stale, old. It was a WORLD tournament, and I saw all the same decks I see at city champ's. Hoo-rah.

Eeveeloutions was not that popular in the grinder. I thought that I was the only one using it.

 

[Flaming_Spinach]

Example 1: Going to states, 4 of the 6 games I play are all against the same deck. Boring. No creativity. It's boring. It's predictable. It's old.

Then metagame against them. If you know what everyone's going to be playing, COUNTER IT.

Example 2: League. Some new kid showed up, he's obviously spoiled rotten. He has a bunch of current arch-type decks. During tournaments, he picks which one will have a type advantage over other decks (usually after asking what type his opponent is playing.) He barely knows how to play the game, forgets to discard for certain supporters, tries to evolve first turn, etc. He ends up beating lots of the other kids even know they're more skilled and familer with the rules, they run their own decks and mommy and daddy don't buy them every card on ebay. This kid barely knows how to play the game, is very arrogant and pompus, but ends up winning games because he copied all of the easy arch-type decks out there. If a deck beats him at league, he'll come back the next week or so with a copy-cat of that deck as well.

I can actually agree with this one.

However, when that kid goes to Cities or something beyond league, he will realize that grabbing something cool off the internet is not the secret to success.

Example 3: People on pokegym so wound up in using other people's decks that they can't respect people who make their own decks. I can give mountains of examples of people like this. Of course, on pokegym, I always get the short end of the stick when it comes to justice, so there's no real reason to report people trolling.

Deck builders who make good decks get all the respect in the world.

Deck builders who make bad decks are ridiculed.

Get used to it.

Why does PUI even make sets of 100+ cards, when nobody uses them An arch-type pops up, people neglect every other card in the set.

Excellent question.

Worse yet, is people who net-deck are rewarded with victories they didn't even earn

Ness is the best player in this game. Saying he didn't EARN a victory at Worlds is just stupid.

Anyone who can win a trip to Worlds and win the whole tournament DESERVES what they get.

Do you think the kid who won @ worlds with mewtrick created the deck? Of course not.

Now you're getting stupid. Ness was one of the 3-4 people that actually made Mewtrick work.

LBS? Of course not.

Correct.

Although, it's obvious since it was played by a 10-



(Not to bash the 10-s, it's just that I don't think any of them is very active in breaking the format)

Eeeveelutions? Definetly not

Absolutelly 100% WRONG.

Every deck I played in the grinder was flariados or eeveelutions. Pathetic, boring, stale, old. It was a WORLD tournament, and I saw all the same decks I see at city champ's. Hoo-rah.

Worlds =/= League

People go to Worlds to WIN THE GAME. To do that, you play the deck that gives you the best chance.

If Metanite gives me the best chance of winning Regionals on April 14th, THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO PLAY. Compeitive events are not your chance to be random and silly.

If you want to go to Regionals to have fun, then go for it. I couldn't care less.

If you go to Regionals to win/prove a point/whatever, you better play a deck you're sure of. for most people, that means playiing something archetypical.

 

[LionheartEX]

There's a difference between sharing, and just completely copying a decklist.

Also, people playing this game soley to WIN is against the SotG also... The reason why this game exists and is established, is to have fun.

I come to league every week, and I dominate everyone...they don't complain...they try and get better to beat me... THATS the SotG!

Ultimate Burn: Creating a deck with a team of friends, that begins winning...then next tourny..someone beats you with it because they copied your list and got lucky.

I see absolutely no issue with this

I don't care about SD's, I dont (rather, no longer) care about people finding out about them,...I do care about people copying standard archetype decklists card for card, and then, like Jimmy said, bombing with it and flaming the creator. It's happened to me so many times. heck, if you're going to copy a Nationals-Winning deck, at least do well with it... and not embarrass yourself and several others in the process.

Some people say "if we copy it, you should be flattered", no, i'm offended by it... I mean, personally, I wouldn't like to make a great deck with some friends, and see it all over the place next tournament because it won, and no one can be original enough, to create a band of friends, learn some more about the game, and figure out a way to beat it. Now, THAT would flatter me... a complete counter deck dedicated to a deck that me and my friends created for our metagame....not people netdecking it.

 

[Tagrineth]

Ultimate Burn: Creating a deck with a team of friends, that begins winning...then next tourny..someone beats you with it because they copied your list and got lucky.

I see absolutely no issue with this

This is a common "sour grapes" complaint.

So they got lucky, big whoop. Now, the real question becomes, what were YOU playing during that next tourney?

If you win a tournament, why on Earth would you go to the next one with a deck that loses to your old one? What kind of sense does that make?

And if it's a pure luck issue, why the heck are you complaining? He could've potentially been playing just about anything, then, and got lucky anyway.

Cry about it, guys. Keep crying... because that's all some of you seem to know how to do.

I really think PUI should start using the policy of... well, most of the other card games... and publish the top 4 or 8 lists of EVERY tournament, down to Cities. That would eliminate all this pathetic squabbling over lists and deck secrecy and bring out BETTER PLAY and advance the metagame.

I still maintain that this is the ONLY card game where players are this pathetically secretive about every little nuance of their decks. I told my UFS playgroup about this thread and showed them some of the posts, and they couldn't stop laughing at some peoples' attitudes over deck lists.

Even the BEST players at that store will gladly spread their deck out on a table and explain their design choices. I've gone undefeated at four different tournaments with three different decks, and that's not because I have some kind of "secret techs" - many of the cards were added/replaced at the suggestion of the other best players there. I help the other players all the time myself. You know what that ends up doing? It improves all of our play ability, and keeps our metagame adjusting because everyone keeps building new decks and rotating lists, making all of us better players.

The first and so far only UFS world champion has every single deck he's ever built - including techs and strategies - up on the UFS boards for anyone to see. Many of the other top players do the same thing. MTG and Yugioh lists are everywhere on the net.

WHY are Pokemon players the sole exception?

 

[Bolt]

I think the reason Pokemon players want their lists secret is because the option's there.

Surprise factor is so HUGE in this game. Take a look at the past few Secret Decks, dating back to even T2 Muk. Nobody sees them coming and they WIN. If everyone had known that deck was coming, there'd be a lot more Psychic in the way to counter it. Look at the difference between how Delta did at Nationals and how it did at Worlds. Nobody saw it coming at Nationals and it finished 1-2, with one of them being undefeated through the thing. By Worlds, there's no surprise factor and an obviously very good deck isn't as playable because people figure out how to beat it.

Secret techs are the same issue to a smaller extent. Knowing if somebody plays a card you're weak to can change the entire way you play out the game, what you even drop on the board. I've watched games where people throw away Windstorms because they don't know about their opponent's surprise tools. Surprise factor!

Since as of right now Pokemon players have the advantage of having their decks kept hidden, we're going to take it. The fact that somebody chooses not to reveal their 60 cards doesn't make them a monster, people still help people all the time. They just want a chance to be able to use the same deck with the same surprises in the next tournament.

It's a VERY time consuming procedure to come up with a new rogue deck for every tournament.

You keep laughing...we'll keep crying, as long as PUI allows us.

 

[Scizor]

This isn't Magic: The Gathering. There is a lot more skill involved in that game during the in-game stage. There are decks made available because it takes someone who knows what they're doing to win with them. There's another difference and that is that there are just a lot more players and a lot more decent-good players in M:TG than there is Pokemon.

There are few great players in this game. But there is also a great deal of luck in a game, definitely a lot more than Magic. Deckbuilding is where great players can separate themselves. When you don't know what your opponent is playing, you can be at a disadvantage. There are a lot of decent-good players in Magic who see a GOOD play, but not the BEST one. There aren't as many options in Pokemon, but somehow, a lot of players blow it. But with the flip of a coin, a topdeck here, bad hand there (no mulligans this game, I've always hated that), subpar-decent players win. It happens a lot more in Pokemon than it ever did or does in Magic. Deckbuilding is all we have.

Did anybody even read this? Tagrineth - THAT's the reason why decks shouldn't be just posted everywhere. This is NOT Magic.

 

[Tagrineth]

The fact that somebody chooses not to reveal their 60 cards doesn't make them a monster, people still help people all the time.

I didn't say they should definitely reveal the whole list, the only reason I suggested adopting other CCGs' policy of recording top cut decklists is to get rid of this idiotic greedy **** mentality the entire community has adopted.

It's just really idiotic when someone, for example, posts a tournament report that effectively says "I went to a tournament and won. LOL!"... why bother wasting your and everyone else's time, as well as the server's bandwidth? They can see that you won on the standings report. If you're going to post a report, post a report, otherwise it's just ego stroking [among other things...]

And then you get people who ***** and moan when even a single card is revealed out of a deck.

Grow up, people. It's really no wonder this CCG is STILL seen as a laughing stock among most other CCG communities.


NINJA EDIT because a post appeared while I was typing this one -

I would STRONGLY disagree that this game has more luck factor than MTG. MTG has very little and very limited means for tutoring and drawing cards - most MTG decks draw one card a turn, period. We feel screwed if we DON'T draw more than one card every single turn. This game has the additional factor of knowing which cards to search for, what order to set up, where to place energy, understanding weakness/resistance and playing around your opponent's possible advantages, what cards can be discarded and what can't, etc. In MTG the most important things to remember are not to play more than 1-2 creatures at a time unless you KNOW your opponent can't wipe them out (WoG, Damnation), and saving mana to cast Instants on the opponent's turn absolutely whenever possible. NOT as complicated as it sounds.

 

[Flareon]

A debate over whether or not Netdecking is against SoTG is silly and impossible if everyone has their own definition for what Netdecking means. It isn't in the dictionary (urbandictionary.com doesn't count, lol) so anyone participating in this discussion should follow the thread starter's idea of the word. From what Jimmy posted, I would assume he is using Netdecking in it's purest form- taking a deck of the net, card for card, and playing it.

Notice, I've taken no side. How can I when this discussion is all over the place? It makes for a headache to read.

 

[Glumanda]

I really think PUI should start using the policy of... well, most of the other card games... and publish the top 4 or 8 lists of EVERY tournament, down to Cities. That would eliminate all this pathetic squabbling over lists and deck secrecy and bring out BETTER PLAY and advance the metagame.

Amen!
1. As someone stated, the better player will win and many of the netdeckers cannot efficiently play the deck. So why is netdecking a problem then?
2. Netdecks are a good starting point for new players learning the mechanics and strategies of the game because some themes as for example energy manipulation will repeat itself. If you give someone a Metanite list and he learns to play it well and understands the rationale behind the deck, he will see the next combo of that kind if it emerges from one of the next sets.
3. You have a nice rounded up and clear metagame and you have good deck building skills? Well, then you have the ability to crush the metagame and it shouldn´t bother you if everyone uses the archtype decke.

 

[desert eagle]

This isn't Magic: The Gathering. There is a lot more skill involved in that game during the in-game stage. There are decks made available because it takes someone who knows what they're doing to win with them. There's another difference and that is that there are just a lot more players and a lot more decent-good players in M:TG than there is Pokemon.

There are few great players in this game. But there is also a great deal of luck in a game, definitely a lot more than Magic. Deckbuilding is where great players can separate themselves. When you don't know what your opponent is playing, you can be at a disadvantage. There are a lot of decent-good players in Magic who see a GOOD play, but not the BEST one. There aren't as many options in Pokemon, but somehow, a lot of players blow it. But with the flip of a coin, a topdeck here, bad hand there (no mulligans this game, I've always hated that), subpar-decent players win. It happens a lot more in Pokemon than it ever did or does in Magic. Deckbuilding is all we have.

Does anyone listen when good points like this one are made?

Give a bad player a Worlds calibre Magic deck and they'll still go like 1-6 or something. Give a bad player a Worlds calibre Pokemon deck and they can probably go 4-3 or maybe 5-2. There's a huge difference in the skill level of the MTG player base and the Pokemon player base.

When Magic was really popular at my school a couple years ago, my friend who just learned how to play a bit bought the Psychatog world champion deck and played RANDOMS with it, and STRUGGLED. If you give someone who just learned how to play a bit Ness's worlds winning deck, chances are they can dominate the decks you'd see played by casual players. I know this first hand, as the first thing I did when I picked up this game was copy Ness's list card for card, and beat people on appr/octgn. I definitely wouldn't copy a list card for card now, but thats how I got started learning this game.

Bottom line is Pokemon isn't a game where good players should consider sharing lists on a public forum, as it does give them a huge disadvantage in future tournaments.

 

[NoPoke]

Psychatog is a neat deck. All about pulling off the game winning combo.

Pokemon is more accessible than magic thats for sure. But to say that it is more luck based is a bit off. In pokemon you have draw and search that no other game has. That access into the deck has to be ballanced somehow. The top deck that many other games have is replaced by flips in pokemon. In pokemon you have to work the odds on the flips as well as the odds on drawing into the right cards.

It is certainly possible to build luck based decks in pokemon that can still function which is perhaps less true for magic where any deck that relies on the godly top deck is unlikely to succede. But I don't see how that makes pokemon less skillfull when you are talking about well thought out tournament decks.

If you share good lists then you are likely to be in control of the metagame. Ahead of the metagame even. Now thats a winning position to be in. Just don't expect to see the fully tweaked and tested lists. And certainly not the SDs and metagame breakers.

 

[PokePop]

I definitely wouldn't copy a list card for card now, but thats how I got started learning this game.

And there you have both sides of it in one statement.
Netdecking is good for people trying to learn how to put a deck together and bad if they are still doing it long after they should have leaned what they needed to learn.

 

[Martin]

What I don't understand is someone trying to tell other players how to play the game. Some players are successful and many are not. How is it possible to be a successful Pokemon Trading Card Game player when you are set on not acknowledging trends? Net decking helps the game so much! You know how many more cards will be sold when we have more established decks? Pushing popular decks pushes packs or even boxes when collectors are scrambling to finish the next big deck for the next big event. It's no secret that the better the card sales, the better the prizes. I really don't get the problem. How are a few kids posting negative feedback on a deck that was posted on a public forum ruining the game for anyone? Look at it from a logical point of view.

My opinion on the matter is that if you yourself are having fun playing the game, don't let anyone elses biased ruin your experience. At the end of the day all you have are your memories of how you've spent your time. Why not pull a list off the board? Why not save 10 hours of deck building and turn that into 10 hours of playing with a friend? You go to a forum, or you go to a dealership. Would you rather drive the car or be told you have to build it yourself before you joyride? Netdeck. The National Champion says it's okay.

 

[Articjedi]

Martin hit it. Netdecking really is really the netdeckers' business. You can rant all you want, but it won't change anything. It's not like PUI is going to implement some "anti-netdecking" rule either. Besides, just because some random pops into league sporting some random metanite deck, doesn't mean he's any good. I've seen guys try to copy decks time and time again, they're still months away from seeing the top table anytime soon.

 

[dogma]

I find the comments about M:TG rather peculiar. Maybe it's because I'm just starting to play (and my friends have decided the way they'll teach me is to introduce me to Vintage - Unlimited in Pokémon I think), but decks in both games are super crazy. In particular, there are easy ways of winning by turn two or three in M:TG, and I heard Slowking/Sneasel had pretty much the same effect in Pokémon too. (I don't know about other formats as I'm more of a collector).

More on-topic, why is this such an emotive debate? If people want to put their lists up, and others want to copy them, then fine. If you don't want to put your list up, or you don't want to copy it, that's fine too. Seriously, not that hard people...

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

Example 1: Going to states, 4 of the 6 games I play are all against the same deck. Boring. No creativity. It's boring. It's predictable. It's old.

The exact same deck, card for card? I doubt it, and I doubt you could know it. If that's not the case then the issue is archetype use, not netdecking; the two are very different. Anyway, even if they were the same list, I think it's well established that if somebody's netdecking then they weren't going to put together much of a deck on their own. You'd have more fun playing assorted crap decks?

Example 2: League. Some new kid showed up, he's obviously spoiled rotten. He has a bunch of current arch-type decks. During tournaments, he picks which one will have a type advantage over other decks (usually after asking what type his opponent is playing.) He barely knows how to play the game, forgets to discard for certain supporters, tries to evolve first turn, etc. He ends up beating lots of the other kids even know they're more skilled and familer with the rules, they run their own decks and mommy and daddy don't buy them every card on ebay. This kid barely knows how to play the game, is very arrogant and pompus, but ends up winning games because he copied all of the easy arch-type decks out there. If a deck beats him at league, he'll come back the next week or so with a copy-cat of that deck as well.

Are they actually netdecked or did the kid just build a bunch of known archetypes? Either way, telling your opponent what you're playing is stupid, and all in all this is much more a testament to the power of the almighty dollar in this game than to anything else.

People on pokegym so wound up in using other people's decks that they can't respect people who make their own decks. I can give mountains of examples of people like this. Of course, on pokegym, I always get the short end of the stick when it comes to justice, so there's no real reason to report people trolling.

Again, is this netdecking or archetype use?

 

[BigChuck01]

[R]Visitor: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

 

[awhill000]

Chuck, I cannot tell you how... Eye opening that article is. Thank you.