Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Opening Pokemon (Article) Featuring MD Updates

I'm not saying Pachi isn't the best starter (at least not in this thread), I am talking about how people reply to threads. It's not constructive now, it's all bashing.

The truth is that Pachi is the most popular starter. Of course it's because it is good! But it's only good because of how our metagame is. If this was last format, when there was little to no hand disruption, people might not be as scared about using a starter like Stantler and filling your hands with supporters. But right now, Team Galaxy's Wager is becoming more and more popular in decks, now with Claydol and Gardevior SW popular. Because of that, Stantler is a liability. You may grab that supporter turn 1, but if your opponent plays a Wager on their first turn, your supporter is gone, and you've accomplished absolutely nothing on your first turn.

I understand that logic. Now the logic around Claydol is just silly. Claydol doesn't make Pachirisu broken or anything. Claydol is really popular, and people want it out T2, so they stand behind Pachirisu that can get out the Baltoy turn 1. People adore Pachirisu so much because of the ability for the turn 2 Claydol, but don't talk about how other basics can also pull off the turn 2 Claydol by grabbing the Baltoy turn 1. Sure, none of them are as robust as Pachirisu and can grab any 3 basics, but some can grab 2 or some can grab 3 of different types. People just like to talk about the best cards, even when other cards can produce similar results.

What I see happening a lot is people run 3-4 Pachirisu and then a tech other basic like Tauros or Stantler just because Pachirisu's ability is so limited after the first and second turn. But no, people don't bring this up in conversations.

Pachirisu is the best starter for this metagame. When the format changes, who knows what might rise to be the best starter. I feel many people will switch over to Phione when MD comes out. It evolves right away, and doesn't give you the liability of putting the card in your hand. People could run a single Phione and start with Pachirisu, but I feel decks might just go the faster route and focus on Phione as a starter over Pachirisu. And before we know it, all this Pachirisu love will be gone, and threads like this and mine might not be so protested.
 
Pachirisu stays there and does 10 damage while you setup the basics you just got out. It also sets up for a scramble if you have one. For me at least, Pachi has not been useless hafter turn 2-3.
 
SPARTA said:
Helping normally goes against my code of ethics, but if you insist prime.

Pachirisu (Great Encounters)
Most veritile starter in the format, which may sound odd to many, because he really only does one thing. He grabs basics. But why is that better than Stantler searching for Mentor, when he can then grab celio and be more useful later? Two reasons:

1. Claydol. Claydol's power is ridiculously good for setting up, and the fact that you can use Pacharisu to get Baltoy and Claydol T2 to start drawing and setting up. The one turn earlier you can get drawing and setup makes all the difference.

2. He is unstopable. If you use Stantler to setup, you will probably be using him for several turns before you setup, meaning a single wager will throw you off. A single wager then a Plox means game over. Pacharisu can setup Claydol T2, allowing you a few precious turns to be able to face down this beast and set yourself up.

Pachi can NOT get a T2 Claydol ! After T2 Pachi is useless and Stantler can still help you, the only thing you got from Pachi was getting out Claydol one turn earlier.
Kinda funny how your argumentation proves the exact opposit of what you're trying to show xD.
If i use Stantler and get an early Wager & Psychic Lock I can still search for another Supporter. if i just have Claydol and Pachi then ..., its not Claydols overwelming strength that makes him so good.

I know what you're trying to show but after a T2/T3 wager, the difference between a pachi start with claydol T2 and a stantler start isn't that big. If you use Pachi you still need to search for Claydol and if you get Wagerlocked the next turn the few cards claydol brought you will not have such a game changing effect when you've already used ur supporter.

Speed and Claydol is why he is the best.
I'll get to the others later.
Click to expand...

Lets just run an example: (G/G Mirror)

I begin and get T1 Pachi & NRG, search for Ralts, Baltoy and another Ralts

My opponent starts with Ralts, does some slapping and ends.

I use Celio, get Claydol, attack an NRG to Ralts, use Claydol for 3/4 cards.
Here is the critical point, if I draw into Kirlia / Candy & Gardevoir, i can use them, otherwise I have to wait

My opponent gets Candy Gardevoir DRE Wager, uses my Celio and locks me. If you didn't draw into Kirlia / Candy & Gardevoir your stuck with what you draw, if you did you still need a DRE / Scramble & maybe a Celio if you had Kirlia
Chances that Claydol saved you now aren't that high, are they ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I begin and get Stantler, search for Rosi (IF I HAVE RALTS I MAY ALREADY START TO USE NRG, but lets just asume worst case scenarios)

My opponent starts with Ralts, does some slapping and ends.

I use Rosi, get Ralts and NRG.

My opponent gets Candy Gardevoir DRE Wager, uses my Celio and locks me. If you didn't already have Kirlia / Candy & Gardevoir your stuck with what you draw, BUT you can still go for another turning of stantler



Dunno, but for me, Stantler seems like the safer way to start.

Additionaly:
Chance of getting a Stantler Start(if u use 4 of them) = 40%
Chance of mulligan(assuming you use 10 basics): 25%
So you'll start with stantler in 40 of 75 cases, since in 25% of the cases you do not start at all, which means you'll start with stantler 54% of your games

That means, 54% of your games you WILL get started somehow because stantler gives you everything you need.

Of cause, the chance of getting a Pachirisu Start is the same if you use 4 of them is the same, BUT
you still need an NRG in your first 8 Cards (89% if you run 14) and a Claydol / Celio in your first 9 cards (65% if you run 2 Claydol 4 Celio). And in reality chances are even worse since if you have a pachirisu in your starting hand you have just 7 possibilitys to get the NRG and 7 to get the Claydol(you had to get NRG and Pachi before).

So the Chance of getting a clean T2 Claydol Start is < (0,53*0,89*0,65~= 0,31%)
Its probably something aroung 29% which is very close to 1/4 of your games, and I normally don't run that many basic NRGs.


Additionaly:

If you go first:
If you go don't start with stantler / Pachi (47%) you can attack an NRG to something else and search a Stantler / Pachi next turn, in case of Pachi you WILL waste another NRG attachment

If you go secoond:
If you go don't start with stantler / Pachi (47%) but got a roseanne ~ 44% (or a celio and and NRG) you can still search an NRG and Stantler (or just the Stantler in case of NRG & Celio) and start search searching immediantly, in case of Pachi you will have to wait a turn.




I hope everyone gets what i'm trying to show, Pachi is risky, it relies on other cards to make a got start, if you get a terrible start without supporters / Candy|Gardy but just crap (nrg / maintenance / Evolutions you can't use/other starters) Pachi will not do anything at all, but stanler alone wll get you out of the biggest mess one can draw into.
Maybe it's just me, but I prefer a safe start, better safe than sorry.


@Muscovy Level X

Don't let youself get put down that much ;)
I bet most people never really thought about something like this and just scream pachi because everyone uses them. Pachi is good but it gets so heavily overrated that it isn't even funny.
Spinda is the play anyway, not only is it multi functional, but its just SO cool :biggrin: ^^

I normally use something like 2 Pachirisu / 1 Tauros / 1 Stantler, but i'd rather kick the Pachis & the Tauros than the Stantler, i just hate loosing because I get totally crappy starts and stantler is the safest way to prevent that.
I could live with using 4 Stantler, but if stantler wouldn't exist I'd use chingling anytime although it sucks so badly, just because of the safety factor.
I'd rather build my decks to work even in the worst cast possible then to be super fast in the best cases. Because you WILL get a terrible start sometimes and if you want to get a clean run through a tournament you will need to prepare for those cases instead of crying about how unlucky you are that you cound't get T2 Claydol


PS: Some of the possibilitys are a bit off, and there are still factors that can't be calculated(taking every possibility into concideration would probably crash any super computer) but what i want to show basically stays the same.

PPS: My english isn't the very best and its 6 o clock in the morning, if I mixed up some words or used wrong expressions, help me to fix them but don't try to put me down on them, just because you can't find anything else. Thanks alot :rolleyes:


edit:// Stantler doesn't set up for scramble ? And Pachi is the one who gets useless after 2 turns, stantler can still help you, at least to thin your deck if you already have anything in your hand by t3 (which shouldn't be the case most of the times anyway)
 
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Stantler isnt that good of a starter,ever since I seen a G&G mirror match with a Absol version and a stantler version,Ive had my doubts, I saw Steven Silverstro hit all the supporters out of the hand and just run rampant with Mars and Gardevior,it was crazy.

Stantler is ok,but it dosent give you everything you need,1.your gonna havechoose between draw/mentor()roseanne/celios/wager,and stantler your gonna have to use it more than 2 times to even come close to getting even remotely setup,choosing the wrong supporter hurts.

At least with Pachi you know what your getting,3 Basics you need to setup quick,and a card that can kill those potential Cesslocks late or mid game.takes 1 Colorless to attack for either attack,Stantler takes 2 for the second.

Which is better late game???Pachi since he can kill Cesslocks/Leftovers whatever these kids are playing and Stantler isnt that good late game since you should be setup already and Leading late game is pointless with Gardy since it setup itself anyway,why use Stantler??

Stantler is good in maybe Hurricane,but that deck isnt Tier 1 now is it?? Top Tier decks are using what as a starter?? Pachirsu since you get all that you need basicially in one fall swoop.

Pachi is the best starter in the game,no way could Furret be since its a stage 1 and your using a few extra spaces to use the line(Pachi takes 3-4,Furret usually is a 3-3 or a 4-2 line to work effectively)
 
With an increased amount of Pachirisu around, Luvdisc from CG has risen it's playability for a notch. If you go second against Pachi, you can pretty much fill your bench with one move. Stadium play is also at least half-decent, and being water type with 2x Lightning weakness only Pachi can really hit you (3hko, duh). Energy costs are also same as with Pachi, and this can actually hit something popular for 40 (Magmortar) and spread/heal at the same time.

Yes, it's a bit dependant on your opponent, but fits better in some decks than Pachi, so I felt it should at least be mentioned.
 
Nothing setups a T2 Claydol other than Phione with a Baltoy on your bench, but people love to mention how Pachi can set it up. This is what confuses me. People don't like Stantler because of the potential disruption of your hand and thus a wasted turn. Now, can your hand not get disrupted with Pachi too? That turn 2 Claydol that might be so easy since you started with Pachi/Celio is now down the drain thanks to a Wager or a lucky Mars or Absol. People are scared of using Stantler to grab the supporter, and yet they aren't scared of their hand getting disrupted constantly that they can't even get that precious turn 2 Claydol out.

Nothing is guaranteed right now in the format as long as there are decks like PLock and Honchkrow (even though it isn't popular now, it was definitely a hand denial deck) around.

I guess people feel safer with a bigger bench and no hand instead of stantler and no hand. I can understand that logic.
 
It's the odds Prime.

Patchi - you get your 3 basics and have great odds of a T2 Claydol even if you get wagered, absoled, or whatever simply because your deck is likely built to get it out. More importantly, even if you don't get the t2 Claydol you still have filled your bench and avoided wasting your turn. On top of all that getting 3 basics makes it REALLY hard for T2 decks to doink you early and the mere existance of Patchi as a starter makes folks really hesitant to play Cess. All by itself Patchi makes setup decks using powers far more possible than they were back in BRs and Cities.

Stantler - if you get absoled or wagered and loose your supporters your attack was wasted pure and simple. Stantler helped setup decks, and is still a good card, but simply didn't have the effects on the format that Patchi does.

It's not about "feeling safer" it's about tiliting the odds in your favor. Ultimately that's what Pokemon is IMHO ... it's a game of odds. Even small changes to the odds of you being able to meet your decks win conditions are huge when players of equal skill compete. That's why Patchi is so good ... he allows you to alter the odds of your deck doing what you want in several ways.
 
Yoshi- said:
Pachi can NOT get a T2 Claydol ! After T2 Pachi is useless and Stantler can still help you, the only thing you got from Pachi was getting out Claydol one turn earlier.
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I'm confused. First you say Pachi can't get you a T2 Claydol, then you say it can??
with Pachi, You get Claydol a turn earlier, that makes a HUGE difference. If you don't believe that, then you just aren't that experienced.
Pachi is not useless after T2, 10 dmg is nice. Besides, it means it did its job, right?

I lol'd.
 
vanderbilt_grad said:
It's the odds Prime.

Patchi - you get your 3 basics and have great odds of a T2 Claydol even if you get wagered, absoled, or whatever simply because your deck is likely built to get it out. More importantly, even if you don't get the t2 Claydol you still have filled your bench and avoided wasting your turn. On top of all that getting 3 basics makes it REALLY hard for T2 decks to doink you early and the mere existance of Patchi as a starter makes folks really hesitant to play Cess. All by itself Patchi makes setup decks using powers far more possible than they were back in BRs and Cities.

I disagree. You have close to the same odds to pull that T2 Claydol that you did before you fished out the 3 basics. Your odds don't go up to "great" just because you grabbed a few basics from the deck. You still have to draw into 1/4 Celios or 1/2 Claydol (1/1 in some decks). Your odds might go up by some small percentage, but nothing is really improved.

Stantler - if you get absoled or wagered and loose your supporters your attack was wasted pure and simple. Stantler helped setup decks, and is still a good card, but simply didn't have the effects on the format that Patchi does.

Absol is barely played now, so you won't be running into it as much. Wager is played, but how many decks can afford to Wager on their first turn? Not many, since they have to setup too, and they won't play Wager if they have a celio or something decent in their hand.
Click to expand...

I wonder how many times people have actually played Stantler and gotten Wager'd on the opponent's first or second turn.

Pachirisu is the safe starter, but you have to rely on topdecks more, so it's the less consistent starter.
 
I disagree. You have close to the same odds to pull that T2 Claydol that you did before you fished out the 3 basics. Your odds don't go up to "great" just because you grabbed a few basics from the deck. You still have to draw into 1/4 Celios or 1/2 Claydol (1/1 in some decks). Your odds might go up by some small percentage, but nothing is really improved.
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true the odds dont increase greatly, but they increase somewhat. any advantage you can get, take. topdecking a claydol from a 42 card deck is easier than 45. with 4 celio and 2 claydol its like having 6 claydol altogether, so it cant be that hard to get a T2 claydol and start ripping through your deck. if you use stantler, how do you get basics on your bench? roseanne's research? instead of wasting a supporter to get your basics, you couldve used pachirisu and some other kind of draw supporter like POV.

its annoying having stantler active when your hand is filled with supporters, cuz then its useless. i guess you could say the same about pachirisu, how its useless when your bench is filled. but at least it can do damage for 1 energy which stantler cant say.
 
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You wouldn't play a Stantler deck the same way you would a Pachirisu deck. You'd play a Stantler deck a lot like you'd play a Phione deck. More great balls, and non-supporter ways of grabbing the basics. Of course if you just take out Pachirisu in a heavy supporter deck and put in Stantler, you are going to have problems getting out pokemon quickly. And if you go first, no trainer is going to help you. At least with Pachirisu, you can get T1 benched pokemon. I feel that is the main strength of the card. The turn-2 claydol is debatable since it can't be shown that you will get a celio or claydol on turn-2.

It's kind of funny to read people fall back on the 10 damage. I know, I do it too. I grab basics and then just leave it up there to deal 10 damage. Hope it gets KO'd and then scramble with Magmortar or Gardy, or Gallade, or whatever. It's a good strategy, but it's just funny to see people reach for any little thing they can say about Pachirisu. Pachirisu is just a one-dimensional card, that grabs basics, and that's it (in most cases). I'm not saying it's bad, and I'm not saying it does it's job poorly (the opposite would be true), I am just stating what I think about the card.

One point I don't think anyone, even me, as brought up is how Stantler's attack is free. This makes it very easy to start with anything in the deck and retreat turn 1 and still pull off the Lead. If you run Pachirisu, but don't start with it, you won't be able to pull off a T1 CFF unless you have a switch/warp point in your hand too. I know, I've already stated how Pachirisu is the best starter (for now), but I thought it'd be good to post another advantage Stantler has over Pachirisu.
 
Prime, two thoughts.

1. Patchi is simply faster than Stantler when it comes to setting up Claydol. Assuming that you don't start with a Baltoy the earliest Stantler can get it is T3 unless you burn a Rare Candy ... and I admit that it can be worth is some times to do that but your odds are lower since you need 3 things including the candy ... however Patchi can get the Claydol for you by T2. That can be a huge difference in a game.

2. You had better believe that I'll TGW on T1 or T2. It's a risky play T1, but if I have an otherwise bad hand I might do it since it might win me the game. T2 it's a much safer play if I have a Baltoy or Claydol benched though I'll try to factor in how good my hand is, how good your hand might be, etc. G&G with Claydol really benifits from running TGW so you should expect to see it early and often when playing one.

Edit: Three thougthts I guess.

3. Stantler's attack being free is deceptive. Frequently you end up having to attach an energy to him anyway so that he can retreat. I got into the "free attack" thinking early in the season but rethought it after a few events.

Edit2: Why is "S U C K E R E D" a censored word?
 
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I thought you were going to bring up how Stantler can't do any damage unless he has 2 energy on him, and I was going to say, "BANG, ZOOM! STRAIGHT THE MOON!".

Stantler has it's problems, I know that. You mention that you could win the game with a T1 Wager, but wouldn't that just give the Pachirisu player another chance to draw into that Celio or Claydol and get the turn 2 Claydol on their side? You can't guarantee you will win the Wager, and you can't guarantee you will even have a Claydol out by your 2nd turn. But I can see how having Claydol in decks have given decks more chances to abuse Wager. Claydol along with Gardevior's Poke-Power has made Wager very popular right now.

Which just leads me back to my point that Pachi is the best starter right now.

Again, with Stantler, you would play more non-supporters that could grab basics. So you could still pull off a turn 2 Claydol (going second). The odds of pulling the great ball on turn 1 (going second) is around the same as pulling a celio on turn 2. If you start with Stantler, you are grabbing that Celio turn 1. So, honestly, Stantler (going second) and Pachirisu (going first) have very equal chances of getting a turn 2 Claydol (with 4 great ball in the stantler deck and 4 celio in the pachirisu deck).

I just pulled that comment out of thin air, but it makes sense.

Now if neither deck starts with their primary starter, well...both decks are in trouble! XP
 
Ardoptres said:
I'm confused. First you say Pachi can't get you a T2 Claydol, then you say it can?? I meant that Pachi alone won't get you a claydol, because you won't always have a Celio / Nrg ;) Of cource it can, but it can't do it all by himself
with Pachi, You get Claydol a turn earlier, that makes a HUGE difference. If you don't believe that, then you just aren't that experienced. If you get Wager locked the next turn, then the difference won't be that big, because having a claydol T2 and also a Candy & Gardevoir / Gallade (sth that you can play immediantly and that will not get shuffeled away by wager) isn't very likely, and otherwise the cards you drew with claydol are gone.
Pachi is not useless after T2, 10 dmg is nice. Besides, it means it did its job, right?
His Job is totally limited, if you don't topdeck into something else, you will not get anywhere, stantler can get a setup all by himself
I lol'd.
Click to expand...

.
 
Yoshi-

If you expect your opponent to start with/draw into the Ralts, the Energy, the DRE the Candy, the Gardevoir T2, then there's something wrong.
 
It wasn't my idea.
Someone stated that Claydol is a savior against early Wager Locks, and thats just not true^^
 
Yoshi- said:
It wasn't my idea.
Someone stated that Claydol is a savior against early Wager Locks, and thats just not true^^
Click to expand...

It is true, An early wager and Psychic Lock vs almost any deck, with or without Claydol, is usually very hard to get around.

Pacharisu can get you an additional turn to get your cards out and set yourself up, you can either accept this is good, or you cannot, I have no interest in changing people's minds about it. The last time I made a post to help someone, I was banned for a month, so obviously my help wasn't wanted. Actually, I might delete my earlier post to make sure I don't incur the wrath of the admins....
 
Wow Prime... just wow....

Which just leads me back to my point that Pachi is the best starter right now.
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That is EXACTLY what we are saying, he is the best starter right NOW. We don't know what will be the best starter next set, and I doupt anyone will care either. We are focusing on RIGHT NOW.

The rest of your post is barely worth responding to.

Muscovy Level X said:
What do you mean by that?
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For the love of all that is holy please do not get James started on one of hs rants -_-*.
 
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