Please Opt Out of Rankings if You Earned a Rating Invite and Can't Attend Worlds!

[Prime]

No Ryan, I was slightly feeling the same way.

I know many people have worked very hard this season to get to Worlds, but not everyone can play. People need to accept the fact that they might not get to play every year.

Asking people to opt out seems like a last ditch effort to maybe get to an event you didn't deserve to be in. If the top 25 players deserve to be in the tournament, and your number 40, why should you be there? Because you got lucky and some people got invited twice?

I'm not saying I am totally against this movement, but at the same time, I ask myself "where is the line drawn?"

If people that are number 40 get to play in the tournament due to luck of passing down invites, what about number 41 or number 42?

Did they not work just as hard as number 40?

Why do they not get to play in the event?

Is it fair that number 40 gets to play because he is lucky?

How is number 40 getting to play because of luck any different than someone flipping heads with fainting spell all day and making it to the top cut to earn an invite?

I have to view this from both perspectives.

 

[ryanvergel]

I have an issue with people receiving invites who didn't earn them, is all.

Great point, Prime. Slippery slope! If you justify X+1 receiving the trickle down NOIR invite after X were invited, then you have to also justify X+2 not getting it.

What's the argument for X+2 not getting it? He worked slightly less hard than X+1 and deserves it less? He is less lucky and deserves it less? Where IS the line drawn?

As a competitive player I am NOT cool with undeserving players going to worlds! I played hard all season trying to fight out an invite. If someone else was to get one because they were the lucky bubble boy, that would not be fair.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

What about the people who were on the bubble last year?
What about people who missed a trickle down at nationals?
Why does a person on the bubble deserve a trickle down invite if they didn't really earn it? They merely got it because they were lucky and on the bubble?

I don't see why it's important to not opt for US players. Europe is a different story and different beast entirely, with different problems. This is strictly about the US.

Your logic is severley flawed here. First off, Nationals isn't comparable. What you do in one event is completely different than what you do for the whole season. Secondly, I can promise you that if you saw someone lose out on an invite by under a .10 of a point you would feel pretty bad for them. Finally just because your on the bubble doesn't mean you didn't have a great year and don't deserve to play in worlds, it just means you had a great year and got unlucky because you had X amount of people in front of you. I am POSITIVE that if you were the last one out you would want someone to opt out to play, and if someone did based on your logic you should refuse the invite because of that principal and try to grind it, but I am pretty sure you would take the invite and play in Worlds, because you would of felt you earned it when based on your logic that clearly just wasn't the case.

Drew

 

[kirstin]

Your logic is severley flawed here. First off, Nationals isn't comparable. What you do in one event is completely different than what you do for the whole season. Secondly, I can promise you that if you saw someone lose out on an invite by under a .10 of a point you would feel pretty bad for them. Finally just because your on the bubble doesn't mean you didn't have a great year and don't deserve to play in worlds, it just means you had a great year and got unlucky because you had X amount of people in front of you. I am POSITIVE that if you were the last one out you would want someone to opt out to play, and if someone did based on your logic you should refuse the invite because of that principal and try to grind it, but I am pretty sure you would take the invite and play in Worlds, because you would of felt you earned it when based on your logic that clearly just wasn't the case.

Drew

hey, nobody felt sorry for my son last year, missed cutline by 1, pleaded for somebody to opt out, were getting negative remarks.......this year he worked hard in winning and getting an invite......SO MY SUGGESTION FOR THOSE WHO MISSED THE CUTLINE FOR INVITE THIS YEAR, GRIND..... DON'T WHINE AND CRY ABOUT IT TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO OPT OUT....AND THERE'S ALWAYS NEXT YEAR

 

[ryanvergel]

hey, nobody felt sorry for my son last year, missed cutline by 1, pleaded for somebody to opt out, were getting negative remarks.......this year he worked hard in winning and getting an invite......SO MY SUGGESTION FOR THOSE WHO MISSED THE CUTLINE FOR INVITE THIS YEAR, GRIND..... DON'T WHINE AND CRY ABOUT IT TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO OPT OUT....AND THERE'S ALWAYS NEXT YEAR

My roommate was the bubble boy last year for masters. No one boo-hoo'd for him. He worked harder this year and got his invite.

Miss the invite? Work harder and EARN it- don't receive it because of a technicality.

 

[Prime]

Finally just because your on the bubble doesn't mean you didn't have a great year and don't deserve to play in worlds, it just means you had a great year and got unlucky because you had X amount of people in front of you.

How is it fair for the bubble to determine who 'deserves' to play in worlds?

#26 was unlucky because of one person in front of them, but so was #27, and so on. Where is the line drawn?

All of these people put a lot of work into getting an invite. Why is it fair that a certain number of people earn an invite because they got lucky and their point total is less than 5 points higher than someone else?

There are many people that are a point or two below the person above them on the list. That is so minute of a detail, that you can't assume that the person above is the better player. How can you reward one player because of luck but not reward those that are very closely rated with them?

 

[DukeFireBird]

Its the easiest part of the game guys. SPIRIT OF THE GAME.

I believe it shows the ultimate SOTG to pass off your worlds invite if you cant go, to another person, who may not of had the chance.

The way the arguments are going kinda really make me want to see the people who dont want people to opt out to get bubble position next year, or some time in the future.

The whole idea of Pokemon TCG imo is the SOTG. SOTG is what makes the game more fun than Yugi or Magic.

Ryan, you certain any invites will pass into grinder? IIRC, only 4 are Guaranteed. and the non invite MAY be given to the grinder. There is no guarantee that they will go in.

 

[yoyofsho16]

hey, nobody felt sorry for my son last year, missed cutline by 1, pleaded for somebody to opt out, were getting negative remarks.......this year he worked hard in winning and getting an invite......SO MY SUGGESTION FOR THOSE WHO MISSED THE CUTLINE FOR INVITE THIS YEAR, GRIND..... DON'T WHINE AND CRY ABOUT IT TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO OPT OUT....AND THERE'S ALWAYS NEXT YEAR

"Boohoo, if I can't have it no one can!"

Look, sorry about that and all, but I remember that thread. You got negative remarks because you were using BRIBERY. You were offering people gold pikachu sleeves to not go to Worlds. That's a little different and really IS wrong.

Jayson has his invite. He's not begging for himself. He wants other people who almost made it to not have an invite go to waste. Invites don't always go to the grinder, people. It would be really bad for these people to not opt out and their invite not go to grinder.

 

[ryanvergel]

"Boohoo, if I can't have it no one can!"

Look, sorry about that and all, but I remember that thread. You got negative remarks because you were using BRIBERY. You were offering people gold pikachu sleeves to not go to Worlds. That's a little different and really IS wrong.

Jayson has his invite. He's not begging for himself. He wants other people who almost made it to not have an invite go to waste. Invites don't always go to the grinder, people. It would be really bad for these people to not opt out and their invite not go to grinder.

Why would it be bad? It would mean that only people who EARNED invites played in Worlds. That is preserving the legitimacy of the event.

I think it would be a good thing. Please post an argument as to why it would be a bad thing.

I want to see:
1. An argument as to why a person who has not earned an invite ought to receive an invite
2. How people playing in Worlds who did not earn their invite is good for the event or the other players or the system
3. How this does not hurt the legitimacy of the rating system
4. How this does not obviously display a gap in logic- if the person .1 points away from the invite deserves one, why not the person .2 points away, and so forth- what is your new justification for why the NEW bubble boy does not deserve an invite

If someone can provide those for me, that would be great. Because I am under the impression that allowing people to play in worlds who did not earn their invite is pretty lame and bad.

 

[DukeFireBird]

Never thought I would go about thinking this way.

Lets have a truly legitimate event,

Only Nationals invites are now allowed. No ratings system, no more sour grapes. Do well at nats to play in the big dance. And I dont mean bringing back Gym Challenges. Keep it Nats only. Maybe Regionals also.

It seems to me that you guys completely dont get it. SOTG SOTG SOTG.

But Ill appease Ryan.

1. SOTG. The person on the bubble, although didnt have the rating to make it in, would get in through a trickle down from a NoiR person who couldnt go to worlds due to some unforceen circumstance.
2. SOTG. Better think of this. Think of each local event, starting from Cities. Is if fair to the integrity of the event to let someone from Tulsa play in Jacksonville? Same scenerio IMO.
3. The ratings are finalized. There is no further impact on the rating system as of this point (with the exception of the last few tweaks from Nats, which I think are finished)
4. Read above. There are rules that determine how things go. If you dont agree to the rules, then either stop playing, or completely NoiR and stay that way. When you do Opt in, you have read and acknowledged the terms of the ratings system and worlds invite structure. If you didnt read it, you still said you did, and you are held accountable as such.

Honestly the lack of SOTG is amazing here. Makes me think this is Yugi-gym *disgusted* :nonono:

 

[Prime]

DFB, I am not against people opting out to pass down invites. SOTG rules.

What I am against is the whole idea that people can earn invites without earning them at a tournament. I also don't think it is fair to those that are within a few points of those that get trickle down invites if they have worked just as hard at tournaments but maybe faced a few less skilled opponents (which they cannot control).

 

[NoPoke]

I don't understand what you are saying Prime, it is okay to earn an invite at an individual tournament but not by combined good performance over more than one tournament? All points come from performance at tournaments.

 

[The Gorn]

Its the easiest part of the game guys. SPIRIT OF THE GAME.

I believe it shows the ultimate SOTG to pass off your worlds invite if you cant go, to another person, who may not of had the chance.

But it's going to go to somebody anyways. If not by passing down, it will go to someone who earns it through the Grinder.

Let's say that you've got 2 people. Alan and Brad.

Alan just missed the trip by 1 spot. Alan isn't going to Worlds and isn't going to play in the Grinder.

Brad played in a bunch of tournaments and missed the trip by 40. But Brad is going to Worlds and he's going to try to grind in.

I think that Brad is showing real commitment and I would sure like to see him get in. That extra invite might just make that happen.

 

[yoyofsho16]

But it's going to go to somebody anyways. If not by passing down, it will go to someone who earns it through the Grinder.

We;ve said it A THOUSAND TIMES and you all STILL aren't paying attention:

Not all lost invites go to the grinder!

You have to understand this. If they opt out of rankings, somebody is DEFINITELY getting the invite. No questions asked. It is done.

If you don't opt out, it MIGHT go to Grinder. POP leaves enough extra invites to the point where 12 extra people could not go to Worlds. They don't have to give out any invites beyond 4 in the grinder if they feel like it.

 

[The Gorn]

We;ve said it A THOUSAND TIMES and you all STILL aren't paying attention:

Not all lost invites go to the grinder!

You have to understand this. If they opt out of rankings, somebody is DEFINITELY getting the invite. No questions asked. It is done.

If you don't opt out, it MIGHT go to Grinder. POP leaves enough extra invites to the point where 12 extra people could not go to Worlds. They don't have to give out any invites beyond 4 in the grinder if they feel like it.

Then I'm against it just because of the large letters.

 

[ryanvergel]

I don't see how I am not displaying spirit of the game... and that kind of offends me.

I am asking for a legitimate tournament, where each participant EARNED their invite- not got it because another player opted not to play.

That would be like a person wanting to drop after top cut is announced and having someone not in the cut, but on the bubble, allowed to play in the cut.

That is against the rules in a tournament, but you are okay with it here.

Interesting. Do you see my problem with it now? Is that an appropriate analogy?

 

[Box of Fail]

Well, by not dropping you're also giving more opportunities for people to get in through Grinders. I mean seriously, a flight to San Diego for nothing?

And I'm not going to Grinders, so I have nothing to do with this. I played a bad season and am not going to worlds, period.

 

[DukeFireBird]

No Ryan it isnt, because the rules of a tournament CLEARLY State that if you do not drop prior to final standings being posted, then you are IN the SEF, and have to play it. If you dont show, you get a loss and your opponent moves on. If you do drop prior to final standings, then the 9th/17th etc person will get in.

Right now, to use an analogy, the Standings are now up. We have a few days until it becomes FINALIZED. When that day happens, the T25+trickle from nats/worlds will be finalized and then we have our field for worlds.

Since you also want a truly legitimate tournament, why do we have a grinder?

 

[NoPoke]

Duke , that last one is a question that is best not asked.

POP only say 4 places from the grinder. Why do this if there are potentially lots of spare seats? Hasn't anyone considered that no matter what decision POP makes they will get complaints. If a lot of places are allocated to the grinder then the NE players will say it is unfair on them. It would be grossly unfair if there were guaranteed to be more invites at the LCQ than at USA nationals. The NE players would be right to complain at such horrid discrimination, same for NW: why should Californian and Florida players be favoured with another route to worlds that is not fairly available to everyone else?

Fair cannot be achieved. Gross unfairness can be avoided: it would be grossly unfair if NE players were banned from taking part in the grinder. But once you have got rid of the gross disparities you are left with trying to square a circle.

Ratings invites select players who have had a good season. (Good in this case just means accumulated sufficient ratings points). If a player goes NOIR then that rating invite goes to the player who is closest to meeting the criteria that the rating system uses. Both rating invites and tournament invites allocate a place at worlds but that does not make them the same. It does not mean that a rating invite should pass over to a LCQ or that a player who cannot use a tournament invite increases the number of rating invites in the pool.

If POP decide to increase the number of seats at Worlds from the LCQ then that is a decision made by POP on the day and I suspect is not strongly influenced by there being a handfull of no-show invites from either ratings or tournaments. Though it hasn't happened yet it is perfectly conceivable that just the advertised minimum number of invites from the LCQ will qualify for a seat at worlds. I bet that decision would have POPs inbox incandescent.

 

[Box of Fail]

Alright, my thoughts are that people who have played a GREAT season, but are just behind that last trickle-down, should not get an invite save at the grinder. I mean, otherwise why shouldn't the person after them also get an invite? Because they were next in line? So is the person you guys are advocating for, the person who gets left out. There HAS to be an end point, a point where the next person in line doesn't get to go. Why should more people be allowed to go to worlds, when someone will still suffer by just whiffing on that invite?