POP Policy Change Regarding Foreign-Language Cards

[ShadowCard]

SteveP: That's a silly question and you know it.
There is no translation for Basic Energy.

Actually, "Energy" is spelled differently depending on the language :wink: :lol:

So I shouldn't show up at Richmond Regionals with an all Japanese deck? :wink:

If you did what Lawman has described at VA states and I was the deck checker, I'd tell you to fix your deck and send you back to the end of the line.

So why don't you follow the guidelines and give the appropriate penalty?

No one has ever tried that during a tournament which I was judging.

Basically you are assuming that anyone using Japanese cards is a cheater.

That is NOT what SteveP, Lawman, I, and others have said. I am saying that people who use Japanese cards in excess are subject to ruleslawyering penalties if they do not have their translations in easy to access order and I observe that the use of non-native language cards is slowing down the game.
In the rules outlining the use of foreign language cards is also a rule saying that if a judge suspects the use of the cards is to gain an advantage, they are subject to the penalty guidelines. What is the reason that a player comes into a tournament with a deck that is 90% Japanese?
What Lawman did at the tournament he described, having the player swap the single copy Japanese cards the player was using for the player's physical English copies, is the correct action for a judge. Deck problems identified during deck check are easily correctable and should be done so at that time. Lawman identified a potential problem, a player using tech cards, which have a tendancy to not be as widely known as popular cards because they get used less. Since the JPN cards were single copies, it made no since to use the JPN card. There's only one reasons I can think of that a player would insist on playing the single copy JPN cards when he/she has a physical, legal English copy as a reference, and it it's not a good reason--it's a bad reason actually.

Maybe you address this in a post I haven't gotten to yet, but WHY is having a full Japanese deck disruptive. You keep saying it is when you have given no evidence as to how it is, and there have been numerous arguments for how it is not.

So I ask again, how is a full Japanese deck disruptive?

Ditto, you have been told how it is disruptive. Go back and read the posts.
You tell me: what is the reason someone comes to a tournament with a deck that is 90% Japanese?

Ever notice that little label on the Japanese boxes that says "NOT FOR SALE OUTSIDE OF JAPAN"? Well, here's a very creative way to enforce it. That label, by the way, is why I have no sympathy for the complainers here. You all played with fire and just got burned.

Problem with that is that that's not the excuse that was given to us in the announcement. Had the announcement said that, we'd have a better idea about why this announcement was made. Instead, we're piecing together the cause of the sudden change of heart.

I'm curious if French, German, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese booster boxes say similiar things. If so, someone should compare it to what is outlined in the announcement of acceptable language cards to use where.

The English box currently says it is "For sale outside of Japan." However, boxes pre-Crystal Guardians say "For sale only in North America."--except for Deoxys which says "For sale outside of North American and Japan." :lol:

Since we've had the current phrasing on the box since Crystal Guardians, there was been 2.5 years to enforce this, but we hear about it now. What changed?

 

[Ditto]

Do you live in Japan? No? Then you shouldn't even be buying them. This is not rocket science. I love how you just completely disregarded my last paragraph.

Not every Japanese card that people have come from buying boosters or boxes. People trade and are given gifts and buy singles.

I'd have to think about it a bit more, but I'm pretty sure the blame would still lie on the seller rather than the buyer. It doesn't say, "Not for purchase outside of Japan."

 

[paso_1]

[/Quote]
When the player showed me several outside ref cards in english for single card techs....I gave him the skunk eye. I told him he could play with a mostly JPN deck, but all the single cards had to be the english ones. Was silly to have 1 card to show for 1 card. Just use it! Whether he liked it or not, he complied. This was at a states, if I recall, a few yrs back.

Keith[/QUOTE]


Like Keith I have done this also and would do it again. There is no need to run 1 Japanese card and have a English ref. 1. I do not get to play as much as I would like and I use a few Japanese cards and also collect them do I agree with this decision yes and no.

1- No matter what you say, until you work enough Tournaments to see some players do get overwhelmed by having to deal with Reference cards or sheets(this is a Game after all) it does slow some matches down.

2- I agree with us having larger sets the ratio needs to be looked into.

3- The effect in Europe needs looked at closer.

4- Pokemon for anyone above us is a business, for the rest of us it is a hobby and a game (this being as with any hobby or game you get out of it what you put into it)

5- OP has a set of rules for the Players, Staff and To to follow and from time to time they change these. Weather we agree with them or not bashing people does not solve the issue.

6- Until we find out why this change has been made(and we may not) it is all speculation.

7- I hope this can be pushed off until 2010-2011 season so people can use the one they have now, but if not we will all continue on.

8- Most small shops do not carry singles and some do not carry a lot or no boosters because they have to go through a distributor and can not compete with WalMart and other stores that buy in bulk.

9- With #8 being a lot of players have to turn to auctions to get what they need if they cannot trade for them

 

[typhlosion collector]

This is so unfair because some people from my league use Japanese cards because they don't have the english ones to replace them with and plus some people are already getting some cards from Japan like Bonds to the end of Time or Pulse of the Frontier Brain sets, if this continues, a lot of people who like to use foreign cards will drop out of pokemon

 

[Kenshin's Garde]

could we just make a color copy of the card text and put it where the japanese text is? it seems like the only confusion is with the wording of the text, so this seems like it would be a viable option

 

[UFtroll]

Yes i am, and you're missing the point. My point is that with higher prices pokemon will become much more cut throat, weather or not you want it to or not. Its just the nature of things look at other card games with high prices, i know in yugtioh for example rips have become much more widespread recently when you can make a good 300 of a single bad trade.

For a captain you sure do not understand leadership. You proudly boost that you rip off little kids and worry that other may follow your example if there is more to gain. You assume that since you have no ethics or values that others just have not found the monetary threashold to be comfortable in joining you but they now they will.

You are the one who missed the point. My piont was a legitimate reason to ban foreign cards not what effect that would have on the secondary market value of cards or how that would alter the values and morals of the player base. You hi jacked my response to the topic to justify your lack of morals and incourage others to join you to make yourself feel better and justified when you rip off little kids.

If you are already doing this then how does banning the cards change what is happening?

 

[Ditto]

No one has ever tried that during a tournament which I was judging.

Then why is there a problem? If a disruption has never happened, then why are you using your disruption power to change people's decks?

That is NOT what SteveP, Lawman, I, and others have said. I am saying that people who use Japanese cards in excess are subject to ruleslawyering penalties if they do not have their translations in easy to access order and I observe that the use of non-native language cards is slowing down the game.
In the rules outlining the use of foreign language cards is also a rule saying that if a judge suspects the use of the cards is to gain an advantage, they are subject to the penalty guidelines. What is the reason that a player comes into a tournament with a deck that is 90% Japanese?
What Lawman did at the tournament he described, having the player swap the single copy Japanese cards the player was using for the player's physical English copies, is the correct action for a judge. Deck problems identified during deck check are easily correctable and should be done so at that time. Lawman identified a potential problem, a player using tech cards, which have a tendancy to not be as widely known as popular cards because they get used less. Since the JPN cards were single copies, it made no since to use the JPN card. There's only one reasons I can think of that a player would insist on playing the single copy JPN cards when he/she has a physical, legal English copy as a reference, and it it's not a good reason--it's a bad reason actually.


Ditto, you have been told how it is disruptive. Go back and read the posts.
You tell me: what is the reason someone comes to a tournament with a deck that is 90% Japanese?

No, you have told me how it could be disruptive. Look...

I am saying that people who use Japanese cards in excess are subject to ruleslawyering penalties if they do not have their translations in easy to access order and I observe that the use of non-native language cards is slowing down the game.

And what if this is not the case? What if they do have translations ready and are not slowing down the game? Then you should be doing nothing. Except that you already did something at deck check before any action like this could even occur! You are penalizing a player before that player has committed an infraction.

Who cares why a player wants to use all Japanese cards, as long as they are following the rules you have no permission to restrict them from using the cards.

It is 100% illegal for you make a player switch out a Japanese card for an English one if they are following the rules. You can not do it just because you think it's silly, has no purpose, or don't like Japanese cards.

It is an abuse of power as a judge to disallow rule following players to use their Japanese cards.

Again, you have still not told me how the sheer fact of playing with Japanese cards is a disruption. If you can't do this then you have no right to refuse their use.

 

[bulbasnore]

I have friends that make all/nearly all JPN card decks. My impression is that they're not gaming anyone, just 'showing off' in a fun/good way.

That said, if new player A is having trouble playing at a proper pace vs. stylin' player B's all JPN deck (with the cool translation binder in the rare/elegant JPN folder), who is going to get the 'slow play' penalty?

I care about all the players at the event, so, if in my experience, I know stylin player B is going to get repeated slow play penalties for an All JPN deck and I can help him out with a strategy (switch your translations for the singles, and get player C here to loan you the doubles), then I think I'll do that for the good of all.

Especially the good of my stylin' friend.

Now, if the person is not as sensible and easygoing as my friend and is a person that is going to stand on his/her rights and force me to give penalties and post a judge on his/her matches to protect all my player A's then I'm going to think about making a preemptive ruling to protect the pace, staffing and integrity of the event.

 

[The Captain]

For a captain you sure do not understand leadership. You proudly boost that you rip off little kids and worry that other may follow your example if there is more to gain. You assume that since you have no ethics or values that others just have not found the monetary threashold to be comfortable in joining you but they now they will.

You are the one who missed the point. My piont was a legitimate reason to ban foreign cards not what effect that would have on the secondary market value of cards or how that would alter the values and morals of the player base. You hi jacked my response to the topic to justify your lack of morals and incourage others to join you to make yourself feel better and justified when you rip off little kids.

If you are already doing this then how does banning the cards change what is happening?

you said this was a trading card game and people should do more trading.(notice in my quote in my first post i only quoted this part) Well my point is that more trading will lead to more rips cause of the higher prices. and when its pretty easy i know that bad trades will become more widespread i've seen it happen. I'm not really carring that much either way cause the vast majority of my cards are in english.

And honestly this argument isn't about my morals really my morals have no affect on my position. If you honestly think people aren't more willing to rip if they have more to gain then you are narrowminded and overly trusting. If its as easy to shop lift candy as widescrean tvs, i think we would see an influx in shoplifting, i could trade commons for rares but i don't cause. While it may not make more people shoplift the people that allready do would certainly do it more.

 

[Ditto]

I have friends that make all/nearly all JPN card decks. My impression is that they're not gaming anyone, just 'showing off' in a fun/good way.

That said, if new player A is having trouble playing at a proper pace vs. stylin' player B's all JPN deck (with the cool translation binder in the rare/elegant JPN folder), who is going to get the 'slow play' penalty?

I care about all the players at the event, so, if in my experience, I know stylin player B is going to get repeated slow play penalties for an All JPN deck and I can help him out with a strategy (switch your translations for the singles, and get player C here to loan you the doubles), then I think I'll do that for the good of all.

Especially the good of my stylin' friend.

Now, if the person is not as sensible and easygoing as my friend and is a person that is going to stand on his/her rights and force me to give penalties and post a judge on his/her matches to protect all my player A's then I'm going to think about making a pre-preemptive ruling to protect the pace, staffing and integrity of the event.

Thanks Kim.

I do have a few questions though. How is it any harder (or take more time) for Player A to pick up a card off Player B's bench to read it than it is to pick up a card next to the playing field? The same action is done each time. It is actually less disruptive to the game for the card to not actually be part of "in play".

While I'm sure your friend Player B would appreciate the potential help, it is just that, potential help. It may not even be needed. Even so, it is still the players right to forgo such help and play the Japanese cards. I know I would appreciate a suggestion by a judge, but I would be pretty put off by a judge forcing me to do something they are not allowed to force.


For what it's worth, I am a judge and a player at nearly all levels of competition. In case that helps take my comments in context any better. Not just this post but in all my posts.

 

[ShadowCard]

Then why is there a problem? If a disruption has never happened, then why are you using your disruption power to change people's decks?

So, because the "Do you know what this card does?" incident did not occur while I was on staff means I cannot base a ruling off of it? :nonono:

And what if this is not the case? What if they do have translations ready and are not slowing down the game? Then you should be doing nothing. Except that you already did something at deck check before any action like this could even occur! You are penalizing a player before that player has committed an infraction.

Ditto, do you know what active judging is?
Any judge can fix an error or infraction in a game. A great judge is able to prevent one. That is why deck checkers ask you if you have your references during deck check, instead of waiting for an opponent to ask you for one and then having to call over the judge because you infact don't have it.
Are you saying that I should wait for a the player to commit the infraction instead of trying to help the player avoid it? :nonono: . No, I'll do like Bulbasnore suggested above.

Who cares why a player wants to use all Japanese cards, as long as they are following the rules you have no permission to restrict them from using the cards.

Actually, if they are using the JPN cards to gain advantage, then they are not following the rules. That is where the "why" comes in. Do you know the defining rule, written in the penalty guidelines, between applying a cheating penalty and any other penalty? It is intention, so I need to know the why.
In the absence of a reason (even if the reason if "because they look cool"), a player who claims "right" to use foreign language cards for is playing the part of a rules lawyer:

A rules lawyer is a player in a game who for whatever reason attempts to use an often encyclopedic knowledge of the rules of a subject to gain an advantage, to annoy or to ingratiate himself with other players, to amuse themselves in a round of banter with others, or to test a rule's solidity.

From there, a judge is going to think that there is something "special" about those particular cards, and that's not where you want your "I use these cards because I think they look cool" to take you. :nonono:

Ditto, who is the TO you judge for? If it is Krekeler, isn't he all about preventative/preemptive rulings, based on his opinion about judges checking for prizes before the start of the round.

 

[Cyrus]

I have friends that make all/nearly all JPN card decks. My impression is that they're not gaming anyone, just 'showing off' in a fun/good way.

That said, if new player A is having trouble playing at a proper pace vs. stylin' player B's all JPN deck (with the cool translation binder in the rare/elegant JPN folder), who is going to get the 'slow play' penalty?

I care about all the players at the event, so, if in my experience, I know stylin player B is going to get repeated slow play penalties for an All JPN deck and I can help him out with a strategy (switch your translations for the singles, and get player C here to loan you the doubles), then I think I'll do that for the good of all.

Especially the good of my stylin' friend.

Now, if the person is not as sensible and easygoing as my friend and is a person that is going to stand on his/her rights and force me to give penalties and post a judge on his/her matches to protect all my player A's then I'm going to think about making a preemptive ruling to protect the pace, staffing and integrity of the event.

I think it's probably much different for the younger age groups, but at least for Masters, every single time my opponent has used a Japanese card I wasn't familiar with...

Me: "Hey can I see your translation?"
Him/Her: "Sure"

That takes, in almost all instances, just as much time as...

Me: "Hey, can I see your card?"
Him/Her: Sure."

...If it's an English card.


So, stylin' player B is really not doing anything unless the opponent asks to read a card multiple times, and even then, that only burns a really really small amount of time.

 

[bulbasnore]

2¢

BTW, throwing my opinion in the ring here:

• Overall, good rule for OP and sales.
• Needs adjustment for EU countries or local language cards will be shunned in favor of English.
• Pretty hard on folks who bought JPN cards for deck glitz or staples; announcement could have been timed better.
• It's a good thing to discuss this and make voices heard, but let's not demonize each other or PUI/POP. I really don't believe in ill-will or thoughtlessness on the part of the players or PUI/POP in this matter.

I'm reading lots of things in this thread about who or what generated this change. Personally, I think that the 'timing' issue is something that was discussed and must have been a hard decision. However, forces behind this or reason for the timing are all guesswork until we have some eyewitness evidence or a further pronouncement that addresses those things.

 

[waynegg]

guys- why are we STILL arguing and fighting with each other? nobody here made this ruling and taking blatant digs at each other because we have a difference of opinion is really juvenile and solves nothing. good, valid points have been made on both sides. a form letter is available in this thread for those who wish to use it. now we're just beating a dead horse. i for one think its time to close this thread, sticky it if need be, and move on.

 

[Ditto]

So, because the "Do you know what this card does?" incident did not occur while I was on staff means I cannot base a ruling off of it? :nonono:

OK, give me any event where this has been a problem. (and that's a pretty open request)

Ditto, do you know what active judging is?
Any judge can fix an error or infraction in a game. A great judge is able to prevent one. That is why deck checkers ask you if you have your references during deck check, instead of waiting for an opponent to ask you for one and then having to call over the judge because you infact don't have it.
Are you saying that I should wait for a the player to commit the infraction instead of trying to help the player avoid it? :nonono: . No, I'll do like Bulbasnore suggested above.

I am well aware of what active judging is and do it often. The problem is, you are assuming that a problem will happen when you have no proof either way. Active judging is watching to see when there is a pretty good chance that a problem will happen and the stepping in when the mistake is about to be made, but before any damage can be done.

Otherwise, you might as well be saying, "you can't play any supporters ever cause you might forget to discard it and that would cause confusion."

You are free to try and help the player avoid the infraction of not having a translation, but if the player does have a translation, then they are committing no infraction and you should be doing nothing.

Actually, if they are using the JPN cards to gain advantage, then they are not following the rules. That is where the "why" comes in. Do you know the defining rule, written in the penalty guidelines, between applying a cheating penalty and any other penalty? It is intention, so I need to know the why.
In the absence of a reason, a player who claims "right" to use foreign language cards for no good reason is playing the part of a rules lawyer:

From there, a judge is going to think that there is something "special" about those particular cards, and that's not where you want your "I use these cards because I think they look cool" to take you. :nonono:

So prove they are doing it to gain an advantage.

I have still yet to see an example of how a player could gain an advantage. That clause is in the rules to make them flexible, not because it's expected to happen.

Also, what determines a "good" reason? Why is, "because I like them," not a "good" reason? Again, your bias is showing, might want to tuck it back in. (You will get that more than others, so I'm glad you were the next one I responded to, lol.)

Ditto, do you judge at events? It sounds like you have a lot of hostility towards judges. Was there some ruling made against you?

I do, in fact, judge many events, at many different levels. I have no problems with judges at all. I only have problems with judges that make bad calls.

For what it's worth, I also play at all different levels. I usually use a deck that is at least 90% Japanese and have never had a problem with it. Not from opponents nor from judges. I'm very lucky that the region I live in (Midwest) and surrounding areas (since I travel a lot) do not discriminate against Japanese cards.

 

[bulbasnore]

I think it's probably much different for the younger age groups, but at least for Masters, every single time my opponent has used a Japanese card I wasn't familiar with...

Not a problem for us, but for new/casual players in MA, it will often be overwhelming, particularly if _every_ card in the deck is JPN, which is what I thought we were talking about.

As counter examples, I think my r4 opponent at CA States who went on to T2, asked twice to see my English PL Zangoose. I had a nicely folded cardex printout showing my translation for my JPN Uxie at AZ/CA states; I had several opponents who looked at it more than once. Now put these counter examples in the context of a deck that is 100% JPN. :nonono: To do the math, instead of 2 stops in a match to read the card, you have 20 - not acceptable in a big event which is so fragile as to timing and where the stakes are so high.

With my new glasses, I can once again read my opponent's cards upside down, BTW, but not in Japanese.

If its an 8 player Battle Road, and I look around the room and see a bunch of sharp players, I have plenty of staffing (me and my judge) I let player B play through. At a big City or State, maybe not. Is all JPN deck legal? Of course. Can it operate in a big tournament without slowing several of its matches or generating a misplay by someone who is trying to keep proper pace?

 

[SteveP]

I thought it was disruptive when I experienced it as a judge last year. Others ridiculed me for having that opinion, saying, "the disruption, if any, is permissible because it's allowed in the rules." That difference-of-opinion with some of my PTO's, fellow judges and professors is one of the reasons I took a year off from judging this season. I wasn't seeing eye-to-eye with my superiors and peers.

I also see a problem when judges also play. Judges and players will many times view things differently. It happens in many types of competitive arenas. Pokemon is no different. Judges need to be able to "stand back" and view things from a different perspective, and not always be viewing things from the players' perspective. It's nice that some judges also play, but they need to separate the two.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Ditto, I don't think I'll ever convince you (like I wasn't able to convince others last year), that an all-JPN deck disrupted the match I witnessed and judged. Perhaps a part of the disruption was caused because I was doing active judging.

Anyway, I think moderation is the key for premier events. Like Kim (bulbasnore) stated, premier events can be "fragile" when it comes to timing. Any distraction or disruption can have a big impact. Use your Japanese cards -- but use them in moderation. Some have refused to be moderate, so this rule was created to stop them, IMO.

 

[LegacyEeveeVGC]

You know I am tempted to play a 90% JPN deck at Nats since they just messed me up big time for the next set and season......
Could have been better timing and also before this ruling was made or I hope before it is put into effect the boxes and cards need to be improved because it for one gives JPN a advantage since they gt better cards in packs, and we can not longer buy those better pack to use...
We now pay more for less......
Wow feels like I am buy a crappy product from China now. (I am not saying all stuff made there is, but a lot of the stuff I get that is made there is junk.)

I am okay with this rule as long as they balance out the loss with improvement in the boxes and cards!
They will be making more money so use some of the exra to improve this to JPN quality~

 

[zombieminun]

I completely agree with your assessment, Keith. Those attempting to vilify POP are ignoring the high probability that this was not a POP decision. For me, I think this was definitely not a POP decision, or even a PUI/NOA decision, but rather Nintendo of Japan protecting their interests.

Ever notice that little label on the Japanese boxes that says "NOT FOR SALE OUTSIDE OF JAPAN"? Well, here's a very creative way to enforce it. That label, by the way, is why I have no sympathy for the complainers here. You all played with fire and just got burned.

And before anyone comes back and says "why did they allow foreign cards", I'm pretty sure the rule was designed to allow for players and collectors who trade cards with people overseas, not to create a black market for product intended to stay on Japanese shelves.

Sometimes people go to Japan(my friend for example went with his japanese class) and bought loads of packs from the Pokemon Center there.

He played with NO fire, yet he can't play his shiny new Mismagius GL Lv X or the Floatzel GL Lv x he pulled?

His dad also lives in Japan. My friend often gets packs/promos from his father when he sends him gifts.

The 'NOT FOR SALE OUTSIDE OF JAPAN' argument is void.

 

[ShadowCard]

Ditto, here is your answer:

Ditto, I don't think I'll ever convince you (like I wasn't able to convince others last year), that an all-JPN deck disrupted the match I witnessed and judged.

Lawman also has given you his experience. You simply refuse to listen.

Any player who claims "right" is rules lawyering. Just because something is allowed does not mean it should be abused. Concerning to me is that if someone insists on playing an particular copy of a card instead of its English equivilant, I will suspect that there is something "special" about that card, in the same way I will suspect something is "special" about the red die if a player insists on using it instead of the orange one. Why does the player insist on using one die instead of another if both are fair and impartial? To get out of that suspicion, you'd better have a better reason than "because I think it looks cool."

Ultimately, this is the question:

At a big City or State, maybe not. Is all JPN deck legal? Of course. Can it operate in a big tournament without slowing several of its matches or generating a misplay by someone who is trying to keep proper pace?

Ditto, if yours are the games that are always going to time and holding up the next round, you're going to get a penalty for event disruption due to your excessive use of Japanese cards.

Ditto, you're setting yourself up for this:

That said, if new player A is having trouble playing at a proper pace vs. stylin' player B's all JPN deck (with the cool translation binder in the rare/elegant JPN folder), who is going to get the 'slow play' penalty?

Ditto, is it worth the penalty when the judge offered you a way out?