Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

"Spreadin the Love"(Cress X, Dusky X, Bronzong) A.K.A. A Dusknoir Varient

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i have found that dusknoir decks need at least three turns before they are dangerous to AMU. in three turns one or two things can happen - you can establish 60 damage on 'noir, which means if damage even did 40 the turn before that total of 100 can KO any of my level x's (because i am holding snowpoint temple in reserve to chase away the level x stadium). or by turn three dusknoir has a third energy attached and is now using night spin. the 50 damage isn't a problem (as long as i have azelf lvl x in play) but the 'three energy to attack' is a huge drag for mespirit level x.

those things aside, AMU sets up really fast and really consistently. three turns to establish the pixie line and palkia lvl x in the last safe slot is the goal and not unreasonable. restructure/switch, and then supreme blast whoever has the most energy attached (or the dark palm guy). i also run 1-1 mewtwo lvl x to recycle that discarded psychic energy mid to late game. three energy and 120 damage is perfect for countering dusknoir. if it is a badly damaged noir (80+) then mewtwo can get it without even discarding.

there are many other dirty tricks i have learned, having faced so many dusknoir decks. one is to leave uxie lvl x 'naked' on the bench, the noir player will use damage even on it, intending a 2hko, next turn i attach unown g make it safe as houses. when the time is right i patch it and everybody else up with healing bell. a well timed psychic bind mespirit can allow me to 'rush' and fill my bench completely for one turn without having to worry about dark palm while i try to pull what i need to destroy it.

anyhow, that has been my experience here in oregon. dusknoir thrives on being damaged. both mespirit and mewtwo can short circuit that approach and it is a lot harder for the dusknoir player to recover than it is for AMU.
 
Dusknoir is one of the best cards in the game, not only because of some spread techniques, but fast setup and hard hitting damage. It can do 50 with Night Spin and stop some attacks in doing so. Wouldn't you say?
 
i have found that dusknoir decks need at least three turns before they are dangerous to AMU. in three turns one or two things can happen - you can establish 60 damage on 'noir, which means if damage even did 40 the turn before that total of 100 can KO any of my level x's (because i am holding snowpoint temple in reserve to chase away the level x stadium). or by turn three dusknoir has a third energy attached and is now using night spin. the 50 damage isn't a problem (as long as i have azelf lvl x in play) but the 'three energy to attack' is a huge drag for mespirit level x.

those things aside, AMU sets up really fast and really consistently. three turns to establish the pixie line and palkia lvl x in the last safe slot is the goal and not unreasonable. restructure/switch, and then supreme blast whoever has the most energy attached (or the dark palm guy). i also run 1-1 mewtwo lvl x to recycle that discarded psychic energy mid to late game. three energy and 120 damage is perfect for countering dusknoir. if it is a badly damaged noir (80+) then mewtwo can get it without even discarding.

there are many other dirty tricks i have learned, having faced so many dusknoir decks. one is to leave uxie lvl x 'naked' on the bench, the noir player will use damage even on it, intending a 2hko, next turn i attach unown g make it safe as houses. when the time is right i patch it and everybody else up with healing bell. a well timed psychic bind mespirit can allow me to 'rush' and fill my bench completely for one turn without having to worry about dark palm while i try to pull what i need to destroy it.

anyhow, that has been my experience here in oregon. dusknoir thrives on being damaged. both mespirit and mewtwo can short circuit that approach and it is a lot harder for the dusknoir player to recover than it is for AMU.

I accept your argument, AMU is very fast, and very powerful. I'm confident that if I faced you, I'd lose at least the first three games adapting to your playstyle, you seem to know your stuff. Hence in the matchup, I said the focus was on stabilizing. Also, in the AMU matchup, I never count on/seek to trigger Dusky X except as a last line of resort: I stall, and try and keep the trio from being simultaneously active.

I'll change it from 55-45 Dusknoir, but I'm not going to come anywhere near calling it an autoloss.

For the record, against AMU I don't use the SC Dusknoir, primarily because he's inefficient against that deck type.
 
Night Spin is actually quite annoying for most AMU decks & while you can't count on damage even in the matchup it can happen + even net a prize sometimes.
 
Is Dusknoir lv.X really needed?

It brings no attacks to the table, and it's only use is the spread damage.

How many decks run Stadiums now just to counter Dusknoir lv.X? Or Lunatone to discard it (and return it to your hand)?

Does it really give you that much of an advantage right away? Couldn't Bronzong give you the same initial advantage (spread on everything)?

I understand the long-term advantage of it, but I ask you, how often does it actually stay on the field for a long amount of time?

Please don't take my comment as me stating facts or anything, I am just asking questions because I really like the deck and haven't played with it yet.
 
well the Dusknoir Lv.X is to just get AT LEAST 20 damage out(end of opponent's turn and end of your turn). It helps when you have a Bronzong MD on the bench because it stacks on. The damage spreading portion of this is to keep Dusky Lv.x out as long as you can, attack with Bronzong, play Spiritomb, and Devolute anything useful for your opponent.

Well, in my area, Lunatone and stadiums are ran here for counter stadiums against Dusky Lv.X because it is so popular here. Depending on how your metagame is, yes, people wouldn't really use Stadiums or Lunatone. I think people just don't want the person using Dusky Lv.X to get easy prizes.
 
Yes, counter-stadiums are rampant, however, in the meanwhile they can't get a counter-stadium, they're taking hits. As much as a 2-1-1 Dusknoir gig up would be awesome, that's almost overkill in its own right - I rarely get out three Dusknoirs concurrently, and rarely do I have the desire or bench space for a fourth!

And when Dusky X does hit, it hits big. You could try without it and tell us how that fares.

Side note, I desperately need to cram a Spiritomb back into my deck, there's so many trick plays with it I've been missing. :(

More or less, the fact that they run counters to it speaks to its power when it goes unchecked for even a few turns.
 
I am surprise people are not using palkia dp/ge to knock out dusknoir lvx.
He has more hp, no pokepower for gengar to abuse unless you lv it up,and attack can also search for another stadium card.
 
I agree with garchomp. Theres no way any deck goes 115-2 against a metagame of any sort, even in jrs.. Also the list relies on alot of stuff that most players simply don't fall for so I really question that record.
 
Also the list relies on alot of stuff that most players simply don't fall for so I really question that record.

Perhaps it's my background playing mostly combo-control in Magic, but this deck doesn't feel like it's exceptionally tricky for what it is (I can't draw a perfect analogy at the minute, but I'd argue it's like the wossname, Solar Flare).

How then would you de-trick the deck, and what aspects of the build would you amp up?
 
Not relying on your lvl X dyin in order to use your back-up line. Either drop the bronzong for another line or support for noir or add in another line (cresslia/obama/yanmega).
 
I think that many players see Unown G as a trump card that negates a lot of what Dusknoir SF1 and Bronzong do. This is somewhat true ... but ignores the fact that few decks run more than 2 Unown G and that Dusknoir SF17 is isn't really hurt by G.

Similarly Weavile is seen as being able to make any deck a "Noir Killer" ... but ignores the fact that it can really slow you down setting up Weavile AND the rest of your deck.

I'm not sure if this is ultimately what Brady1 is talking about, but I've seen a lot of dismissiveness about Dark Palm. "Oh, no skilled player would ever bench more than 3 things vs Noir." Which simply isn't true 100% of the time. Yes if they set up well they can play smart ... but if they get a slow start then things like Uxie start to hit the bench which can make it really tempting to put something in that 4th bench spot. I've seen good players take a risk when Noir DP isn't on the field and bench something that will open them up to dark palm. It's a calculated thing, and the D-Noir player isn't always going to be able to get Noir DP2 out in time to take advantage, but sometimes they will. Dark Palm is a nice tool but I've never seen it as an auto win power. "Playing smart" and keeping a small bench does work, but that doesn't mean that it's easy.

As a practical matter all of those things do work, it's just that Noir is fast and can sometimes work around them. Tech’s like Alakazam can prevent G from using Guard. Lumineon can pull out basics. Azelf lv. X can remove weakness.


edit: lol - Brady1 answers above and renders this somewhat moot.
 
Not relying on your lvl X dyin in order to use your back-up line. Either drop the bronzong for another line or support for noir or add in another line (cresslia/obama/yanmega).

Having dropped the 1-1 'Zong line, what goes in? My instinct is to revert to what I dropped for the Cressy, and put in a Spiritomb and another Unown G in its place. But I think a second premier ball may be in order. In which case, what is the last spot you'd recommend? Perhaps there belongs the Spiritomb? A sole Wager?


4-2-(SF1/DP2/DP33)-1 Dusknoir
1-1 Claydol
1-1 Cresselia
1-1 Azelf
2-1 Uxie
2 Unown G

4 Roseanne's
4 Rare Candy
4 Bebe's Search
3 Night Maintenance
3 Poke Radar
2 Warp Point
2 Moonlight Stadium
2 Premier Ball
1 Luxury Ball

9 Psychic
4 Call

1 Open Spot

Candidates: Spiritomb, another Unown G, TGW, Warp Point, drop 1x of something and beef up my 'Dol line, etc... ?
 
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My first thought is to question the 1-1 Claydol, because I am so used to 2-2 Claydol. BUT, I run a 1-1 Claydol in my Regigigas and it works brilliantly...i mean, I always get it out, which is funny. I guess with Azelf in here, having a piece prized is not as harmful.

Just noticed that the Promo Dusknoir has 10 more HP than both the SF Dusknoirs. Neat.

How does Dusknoir get around Unown G? If we compare the attacks of all the Dusknoirs, we see a lot of attacks that work with damage counters and those don't affect Unown G'd Pokemon. So that means that SF #1 Dusknoir is a pretty bad attacker with Unown G on key Pokemon. That means that DP Dusknoir is useless as an attacker. That leaves the Promo one and the SF #17 Dusknoir. The Promo Dusknoir move damage counters off itself. Although you wouldn't be able to move the damage counters onto a Unown G'd Pokemon, you could still move it onto something else that isn't Unown G'd. So his attack isn't totally invalidated. SF #17 Dusknoir's attack doesn't apply effects of attacks like damage counters, and thus isn't affected by the opponent's use of Unown G at all. I think it is important that every Dusknoir deck needs to have 1 of these 2 Dusknoir in them just so they have a decent attacking option against Unown G heavy decks.

But each player has to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of both of them. The Promo one can possibly remove a Pokemon from the opponent's hand, which can be very useful. The SF Rare Dusknoir can spread damage on all the opponent's Pokemon that have energy on them. The Promo one seems like it would be able to survive longer than the SF Rare because of it's 10 more HP and ability to move 2 damage counters off of it.

How much more survivability does the Promo Dusknoir have? 4 shots of 50 will knock it out (50-20 = 30 + 50 - 20 = 60 + 50 - 20 = 90 + 50 for KO). Normally, just 3 shots are needed. This changes at 60 damage, but is still in Promo Dusknoir's favor since it has 10 more HP than the other Dusknoirs and can survive 1 more attack because of it. The extra 10 HP also allows it to survive 2 shots of 70 (70-20 = 50 + 70 = 120). Any damage higher than 70, and the extra HP AND the effect of the attack does nothing to help it survive longer.

So, the question really comes down to what kind of damage do you see being done at tournaments? Against Kingdra, the Promo Dusknoir would be able to survive better than the other Dusknoirs, but that isn't totally correct. The SF #1 Dusknoir's second attack, Night Spin, pretty much wins you any Kingdra matchup. So, really, against Kingdra, the Promo Dusknoir's survivability isn't that important. Every other deck does more than 60 damage on average. Regigigas does 100 damage, which is the magical 80 after resistance, which is enough to totally invalidate the Promo Dusknoir's extra HP and removal of damage. Tyranitar is probably gonna do 80 or more or just OHKO you. The Promo Dusknoir's extra HP and removal of damage might help against Mirror matches, since Dusknoirs in general don't do massive regular damage, and an Unown G on the Promo Dusknoir makes it unaffected by damage counter snipe-age. Scizor is going to be pumping out at least 70, most likely 80 or more, so again, the extra HP and removing damage doesn't help much in that matchup. Against Abomasnow, the moving 2 damage counters could help some, as you'd be reversing some of their spread in the process, but it won't help tremendously as they never mean to OHKO or do MASSIVE damage to your active Dusknoir.

So, in many matchups, the extra HP and damage removal (or transfer) doesn't help tremendously, but it's Poke-Power is still very decent and it's attack is one of the few Dusknoir attacks that isn't totally nerfed by Unown G. Let's look at the SF #17 Dusknoir and see if it's worth playing over the Promo one.

So, the SF #17 Dusknoir brings 2 qualities to the game. It's Poke-Body can spread damage on things that have Energy on them, and it's attack can do 80 damage if the defending Pokemon has 2 or more damage counters on them. Sounds like a perfect pair of ability and attack, right? Definitely, if your Dusknoir deck is focused more on spreading small amounts of damage all over the place instead of big whopping hits of damage counters on key critters, then this Dusknoir would be right up your alley.

I do wonder how useful it's Poke-Body is, though. How do the Popular decks lay their energy on the field, and could SF #17 Dusknoir's Poke-Body really spread that well. Looking at the same decks (regigigas, tyranitar, mirror, kingdra, scizor, and abomasnow), Regigigas only tend to attack to key Pokemon like Regigigas, so there doesn't seem a big chance to spread there. Kingdra can get away with no energy on them, because all they need is 1 energy to use their second attack and no energy whatsoever for their first attack. I think most of these decks don't really spread energy all over the board. So, it seems that Poke-Body on the SF #17 Dusknoir will usually just damage the main attackers. That's not a bad thing, though. It just means that it won't work as super well with Bronzong laying extra damage on Key Poke-Powered Pokemon like Claydol.

In the end, I don't know if I prefer one over the other. If you like Disruption more than Spread, then I would say use the Promo Dusknoir, but if you want your Dusknoir deck to be 100% spread, then I guess the SF #17 Dusknoir is your man. Neither are a bad choice but neither really bump the other out of the view and make you want to play them over the other.

I think the DP Dusknoir is a staple. Someone asked earlier, "what if you don't play it?". What happens is that the opponent assumes you are playing it, and keeps their bench to 3 or less, and then when they figure out your not running it, fills their bench. This helps some decks more than others. Decks like Kingdra that abuse multiple Uxie and Mesprit (Regigigas), really need that bench space, especially if you don't KO their starting Sableye/Chatot/etc. Other decks, like Scizor, don't need the bench space as much. 2 Scizor, 2 Cherrim, and they are still putting out 90 damage a turn, which is great. Right now, though, I feel it's important to run the DP Dusknoir because the opponent's bench space is precious with the Pixies and more complicated decks needing helping helpers like Weavile. In those cases, you are in a situation where you can gain something by disrupting their field.

So, this is how I see the Dusknoir layout. You gotta have 1 DP Dusknoir, period. You gotta have 1 SF #1 Dusknoir. If not for it's sweet Poke-Power, it's super snipe attack, and it's Kingdra-winning second attack. Let's say for the matter of this discussion that we are using the Lv.X, so that is 3 slots so far filled. From there, as much as I'd want to play another SF #1 Dusknoir, in a field with a lot of Unown G, I think the better bet is the Promo Dusknoir or the SF #17 Dusknoir.
 
SF17 is a better attacker in a heavy G enviornment Prime. The Promo Noir really suffers if it can't move damage which is a real possiblity if the opponent has Guarded their bench. The body is also badly underrated and can really swing the mirror match since it offers a way to KO Noir X without triggering the power. Brain was able to do that to me several times.

The Promo noir works best with Lumineon, Cresselia, or both IMHO. It's attack is nice, but realistically you need more healing and damage control to really make it work. I keep meaning to build a list that has the Promo and Poke Healer + ... in addition to how it can fix big damage just playing 1 Healer at a time is a neat way to kill status conditions and make the healing just a tiny bit better without stopping you from having some damage to move.
 
Unless the opponent has their entire bench Unown G'd, you can still move the damage to SOMETHING. If it's a stupid Sableye on the bench, something will always be unprotected. That, or the opponent is weird and runs 4 Unown G and Guards their entire bench. I guess they could run 3 Unown G and keep their bench to 3 Pokemon, but still, how common is that?
 
SF17 is a better attacker in a heavy G enviornment Prime. The Promo Noir really suffers if it can't move damage which is a real possiblity if the opponent has Guarded their bench. The body is also badly underrated and can really swing the mirror match since it offers a way to KO Noir X without triggering the power. Brain was able to do that to me several times.

The Promo noir works best with Lumineon, Cresselia, or both IMHO. It's attack is nice, but realistically you need more healing and damage control to really make it work. I keep meaning to build a list that has the Promo and Poke Healer + ... in addition to how it can fix big damage just playing 1 Healer at a time is a neat way to kill status conditions and make the healing just a tiny bit better without stopping you from having some damage to move.

There's a small range of "viable health" for the Dusknoir Lv. X to have for it to efficiently KO it, 90 - 100 for the immediate KO without, activation. Given the predominance of Shadow Command Dusknoir, that is possible, and Cressy X and Spiritomb (90-120 in a given turn, the 120 is crucial, it means a single Shadow Command puts it within OHKO range) make it even more so, but it's still a stretch, unless I'm missing something. Otherwise your points seem valid enough and I'll try out each.
 
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