LionheartEX
Active Member
I came second at 2004 nats with 22 Pokemon/10 Trainers/28 Energy
and I feel big for doing so
TGW and Absol - Their Effect on OP
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I came second at 2004 nats with 22 Pokemon/10 Trainers/28 Energy
and I feel big for doing so
I came second at 2004 nats with 22 Pokemon/10 Trainers/28 Energy
and I feel big for doing so
Yeah but your not cocky about it. =].
I don't understand the logic, "if you can get setup, you win". There are no auto-wins in this game, and barely setting up after an early Absol doesn't just give you the win. The opponent has had a clear path to setup unlike you, and most likely has something to confront your meager setup with. If it's anything like the new decks, you KO the Absol with (insert pokemon here), then Magmortar comes up with scramble, or Gallade comes up, and OHKOs you. Now your small setup is gone, and you have nothing to come back with. Sure doesn't sound like you automatically win if you can get setup. Or do you mean when you say setup, all your pokemon fully evolved with plenty of cards in your hand? Because that would be the only way to come back from an early absol. And that is your definition of setup, then good luck because it's very hard to setup 2-3 evolution lines when Absol is discarding 1-2 cards every turn, and Mars is putting a card back under your deck every now and then.
I don't think Absol is broken or anything, but it is definitely a show-stopper and can end games before they even start just as well as a late game Admin could hurt the opponent.
I don't think Absol is broken or anything, but it is definitely a show-stopper and can end games before they even start just as well as a late game Admin could hurt the opponent.
Have you ever tested vs absol at all??? OMG there are SO MANY counters to absol that it's ridiculous.
Absol was completely broken the first few weeks simply because no one was playing them. If you played in an ever changing metagame like Florida you would know that.
Now i'm not saying that absol is trash and shouldn't be played, because with a little luck Absol can be very effective. But that's all it is when your opponent is prepared. There is no excuse for absol to consistantly win anymore except that you play versus an opponent that is un-prepared.
And as far as Mars goes?It's such a mediocre draw card, I used to run 4 in my galladesol, but quickly cut it to 3 , and then 2.
And as far as Magmortar/Absol goes... That deck is so luck based it's crazy. If they start with Magmar they lose miserably.. it's almost like a 50/50 chance of your deck just getting the TAR beat out of it every game.. It's kinda like Mario except for the fact that it actually has a little synergy
Rainbowgym
Active Member
I did play very recent in the Florida "metagame" and it was as boring as overhere.
Absol/Gallade Magmortar/Absol or Blissey/anything. Some creative decks but mostly the same stuff as at home.
Sorry, but all those "so good" Absol counters don't fit in each deck. And second, getting them out might be a small problem. They can end up in your discard pile before you can use them.
Absol/Gallade Magmortar/Absol or Blissey/anything. Some creative decks but mostly the same stuff as at home.
Sorry, but all those "so good" Absol counters don't fit in each deck. And second, getting them out might be a small problem. They can end up in your discard pile before you can use them.
Bolt
New Member
I had a tough time against Absol this weekend, but that was mainly after I already had a bad hand to start with. Absol will win you games against bad hand+bad start basically by itself. Also, luck's not a one way street, the Absol player needs plenty of it as well. All it takes is for them to nail a useless card once, then comes the Steven's Advice or Copycat, then the candies and Typhlosions and all of that.
Absol's cool, it can really stunt a setup, but it can be an easy KO just as often.
Absol's cool, it can really stunt a setup, but it can be an easy KO just as often.
Rainbowgym
Active Member
Cities are done? Did I missed something, overhere they are running untill the end of January.
How about I don't?
Most of us figured it out on our own. It's simple, watch the better players at your league, at your tournaments. Those are the players who will have the card countered.
Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:
To be fair Lia, most of Florida's good players were all up in GA playing in the 'marathon of cities'.
You can't really say you played in the typical FL metagame where Heidi and Aaron G are playing in t2
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If it's already been countered, then why hide the details? If your speaking of techs like birch and stuff, then that doesn't effectively counter absol. If you are speaking of delcatty, again, that doesn't effectively counter absol if you don't get it setup. If your speaking of the fishing engine, then I can't really make a point on that since I haven't tried that.
Squirtle, you come onto this thread and literally belittle me for not knowing the "secret" to easily countering absol, yet aren't even willing to help people that might not know the secret. If absol is going to be not played after cities, why even hide that information now, when many people are already done with cities?
We can't have a good discussion if you pretty much say this topic is null yet don't include information why it isn't correct.
I wonder if you wanted to add to the discussion in the first place or just attack the original poster...
Squirtle, you come onto this thread and literally belittle me for not knowing the "secret" to easily countering absol, yet aren't even willing to help people that might not know the secret. If absol is going to be not played after cities, why even hide that information now, when many people are already done with cities?
We can't have a good discussion if you pretty much say this topic is null yet don't include information why it isn't correct.
I wonder if you wanted to add to the discussion in the first place or just attack the original poster...
I love Steve Arena, I would never attack him. Him and his son are among the classiest people i've ever met.
What secret Prime??These cards are no secret and anyone DECENT should see them. You think everything is a conspiracy to get you. Just look at your sig...
"Team Negative". You remind me of Eeyore. "Woes Eeyore, nobody likes Eeyore".
Do you guilt trip your way through life too?
Delcatty doesn't fit in most decks, if your teching that for Absol no wonder your losing.
and in Garde/Absol, if you play birch you allow your opponent to play it.
The techs are so simple and obvious it's disguisting.
Azurill, for 0 energy take ANY card from your discard pile and put it in ur hand.. Great tech for Absol, and Cessation alike.
Mew from SW. For 0 draw untill you have the same ammount of cards as them.
If your playing Gardy just sit up there using your Kirlia to use your supporters.
those are a few ways to deal with it.
OMG the huge secret is out, someone call the papers
Did that hurt so much? You actually added something to the conversation this time. You get a star sticker right by your name.
Of those tech's I've heard of Mew before and Kirlia is a no-brainer. I don't know if I agree with Azurill being a good tech. Since you are using an attack to bring back a card, if you bring back a trainer, you are just increasing the odds of Absol to discard 2 cards again. I could only see Azurill playable in setup decks as they are the only ones that can sacrifice time to use Azurill effectively. But I don't know how useful Azurill could be in setup decks if Magmortar/G&G already have other starters (Absol/Corsola).
Mew's effectiveness is questionable imho. It's an attack, so we run into the same problems as Azurill with Absol being able to discard before you can use the cards you actually drawn, and it relies on the opponent having that many more cards than you. If you are down to 1-2 cards and they have 4-5 cards, you've gained about 3-4 cards, which after Absol would be 2-3 cards (not adding in other effects from supporters or other cards). Pretty much Mew becomes a Cozmo's Discovery that you can use each turn. If your opponent's hand is bigger, like 7-8 cards, I could see the increase making a difference. If your opponent's hand is smaller than 4-5 cards, then Mew's attack doesn't accomplish much.
If we venture into the future for a bit, a lot of people feel the Claydol from GE will make a big impact in Absol. I can see it's use, but I don't agree it will make that much of an impact in Absol use. The reasons I feel Claydol won't make a big dent in Absol use are:
I do find it funny that people have to change their deck and play differently to counter a single basic pokemon. It's not a stage 2 that de-evolves our entire bench, or a stage 2 that can deal 180 damage, it's a basic that only uses one of it's attacks most of the time.
I guess part of it's effectiveness is because of the lack of anti-disruption in the format, and how splash-able it is in decks.
Of those tech's I've heard of Mew before and Kirlia is a no-brainer. I don't know if I agree with Azurill being a good tech. Since you are using an attack to bring back a card, if you bring back a trainer, you are just increasing the odds of Absol to discard 2 cards again. I could only see Azurill playable in setup decks as they are the only ones that can sacrifice time to use Azurill effectively. But I don't know how useful Azurill could be in setup decks if Magmortar/G&G already have other starters (Absol/Corsola).
Mew's effectiveness is questionable imho. It's an attack, so we run into the same problems as Azurill with Absol being able to discard before you can use the cards you actually drawn, and it relies on the opponent having that many more cards than you. If you are down to 1-2 cards and they have 4-5 cards, you've gained about 3-4 cards, which after Absol would be 2-3 cards (not adding in other effects from supporters or other cards). Pretty much Mew becomes a Cozmo's Discovery that you can use each turn. If your opponent's hand is bigger, like 7-8 cards, I could see the increase making a difference. If your opponent's hand is smaller than 4-5 cards, then Mew's attack doesn't accomplish much.
If we venture into the future for a bit, a lot of people feel the Claydol from GE will make a big impact in Absol. I can see it's use, but I don't agree it will make that much of an impact in Absol use. The reasons I feel Claydol won't make a big dent in Absol use are:
- Not every deck can afford a 2-2 or 1-1 (or more) to tech in a stage 1 line to counter a basic pokemon.
- Depending on your resources, and the cards Absol discards, you might not even be able to get out a Claydol before you lose the game.
- It relies on a poke-power. I don't see why the Absol player cannot attach a Cessation Crystal to their Absol to stop all poke-powers. Now, not all decks can afford to do that, like G&G, but I feel we will see more disruptive decks with Absol in the future that can afford to do that. And certain decks like plain Magmortar with Absol and Honchkrow with Absol can afford to do that.
I do find it funny that people have to change their deck and play differently to counter a single basic pokemon. It's not a stage 2 that de-evolves our entire bench, or a stage 2 that can deal 180 damage, it's a basic that only uses one of it's attacks most of the time.
I guess part of it's effectiveness is because of the lack of anti-disruption in the format, and how splash-able it is in decks.
Yaaaaaaaay, Sticker. Thank you teacher, may I stay after class and help you clean the black board as well!?
You say you don't like using an attack to make it work. You just don't get it, do you matt?
Yes, it's your attack for a turn. SO what.Ideally you don't even use Azurill till late/mid game. You generally sac the prize to assist with your scramble while you get your card back. Yes, with mew your opponent gets first shot at your cards. Thats fine, it really doesn't matter. If you build a good, solid deck, it won't matter unless your opponent is a complete donkey. You draw up to 6-7 on average pure turn. If they hit 2 with absol, your at 4-5. You play your cards and repeat.
The longer they are using absol, the bigger the disadvantage is for them. Absol decks are designed to get a quick hitter and dominate early board.The more cards you draw, the better your set gets, the worse off the absol player is.
Absol decks lack a set up poke,(Mawile/Stantler/Corsolla) making them less consistant than normal decks. They Rely on totally disrupting you which doesn't always work.
I went 29-3 with Absol/Gallade before deciding I hated the deck. and going with Magmortar, Empoleon, Blissey or whatever.I know the card and am as qualified as anyone to talk on the matter.
Example: One of the reasons I put the deck down is it's just too freaking luck based. I can think of at least 2-3 games that I would have lost if I didn't take my opponents rare candy/Celio/poke on T1. I could have just as easily hit an energy and they go wild.
FACT: The longer the game draws out(with the help of Mew, Azurill, WHATEVER) the worse the game gets for the absol player.
FACT: Early pressure is very hard for absol decks to counter, as they are less consistant than normal decks. If absol is big in your area, Decks like Begfriend and Ambulance wreck
FACT: Absol is a good card. But GOOD players, with mediocre luck will be able to counter it, and overcome the challenges it provides on most occasions.
You say you don't like using an attack to make it work. You just don't get it, do you matt?
Yes, it's your attack for a turn. SO what.Ideally you don't even use Azurill till late/mid game. You generally sac the prize to assist with your scramble while you get your card back. Yes, with mew your opponent gets first shot at your cards. Thats fine, it really doesn't matter. If you build a good, solid deck, it won't matter unless your opponent is a complete donkey. You draw up to 6-7 on average pure turn. If they hit 2 with absol, your at 4-5. You play your cards and repeat.
The longer they are using absol, the bigger the disadvantage is for them. Absol decks are designed to get a quick hitter and dominate early board.The more cards you draw, the better your set gets, the worse off the absol player is.
Absol decks lack a set up poke,(Mawile/Stantler/Corsolla) making them less consistant than normal decks. They Rely on totally disrupting you which doesn't always work.
I went 29-3 with Absol/Gallade before deciding I hated the deck. and going with Magmortar, Empoleon, Blissey or whatever.I know the card and am as qualified as anyone to talk on the matter.
Example: One of the reasons I put the deck down is it's just too freaking luck based. I can think of at least 2-3 games that I would have lost if I didn't take my opponents rare candy/Celio/poke on T1. I could have just as easily hit an energy and they go wild.
FACT: The longer the game draws out(with the help of Mew, Azurill, WHATEVER) the worse the game gets for the absol player.
FACT: Early pressure is very hard for absol decks to counter, as they are less consistant than normal decks. If absol is big in your area, Decks like Begfriend and Ambulance wreck
FACT: Absol is a good card. But GOOD players, with mediocre luck will be able to counter it, and overcome the challenges it provides on most occasions.
Thank you Squirtle for a great post.
Do you see more decks leaning towards scramble energy to come back from an early threat? I run scramble in my G&G, and in my Magmortar decks, but I didn't realize until now that this might be becoming the standard for setup decks.
On the idea of, "the longer they survive, the bigger threat they are", I can agree with that, but it applies more to setup decks than decks like banette/kricketune that their offensive ability is kind of capped to a point. They would be getting more cards, but you can know what to expect. Decks like G&G and Magmortar would definitely not be decks you would want to give time to setup since Magmortar setup is very powerful and G&G is almost as messed up with a fully setup bench (imho).
Here's a thought that popped into my head. Absol is played a lot in G&G, but G&G is a setup deck, thus not always being able to get a quick attacker (even though a quick gallade can be an efficient early attacker). I wonder why decks like G&G don't play other starters that can help them get setup better (like some Magmortar decks run Corsola, like how decks like Blaziken and Gardevior ran Dunsparce or HL Jirachi).
Any insight on those topics?
Do you see more decks leaning towards scramble energy to come back from an early threat? I run scramble in my G&G, and in my Magmortar decks, but I didn't realize until now that this might be becoming the standard for setup decks.
On the idea of, "the longer they survive, the bigger threat they are", I can agree with that, but it applies more to setup decks than decks like banette/kricketune that their offensive ability is kind of capped to a point. They would be getting more cards, but you can know what to expect. Decks like G&G and Magmortar would definitely not be decks you would want to give time to setup since Magmortar setup is very powerful and G&G is almost as messed up with a fully setup bench (imho).
Here's a thought that popped into my head. Absol is played a lot in G&G, but G&G is a setup deck, thus not always being able to get a quick attacker (even though a quick gallade can be an efficient early attacker). I wonder why decks like G&G don't play other starters that can help them get setup better (like some Magmortar decks run Corsola, like how decks like Blaziken and Gardevior ran Dunsparce or HL Jirachi).
Any insight on those topics?
Pretty much. Alot of decks are sort of running on the Delta(RaiEggs) engine these days.You simply sit there, do your thing(in those days, it was delta draw or Zzappp) and when they come up and make the first move, you go crazy with scrambles and such. It's just the way things work these days.
Prime said:
I'm going to be 100% honest with you. I never really considered Kricketune a deck.Yes, it can do t2 80, which is hot. But it just loses to most decks in the format right now. G&G destroys it, Magmortar loves it, and Blissey isn't even a game vs it.
If those decks are even going to try to give Absol varients a game it is CRUCIAL that they score a T2 KO, and pack their deck wtih TONS of draw, so they can recover after T2ing an absol.
When I spoke about surviving, I was mostly talking about Magmortar. A deck that when it gets a complete set, is nearly unbeatable. If I had to name 1 deck in this format BDIF, that would be it.If G&G decks(with absol or not) don't take early board /card advantage they simply don't win.
This is an aspect of the game that is starting to look a little like the Older Yu-Gi-Oh format. Just be thankful there is no Yata-Garasu. Rest assured, once Great Encounters comes out, the fear of Claydol will be enough to keep Absol in check, Play the Metagame.
Prime said:
Most G&G decks do run set up Pokemon. Mawile is a good choice, but the fear of getting T1d by a Magmar is there, which is why most people tend to play Stantler instead.
G&G + Absol is the exception. The main focus of the deck is to kill your side of the board while it sets up a Gallade to win the game. The deck however can be horribly inconsistant at times which leads to dumb losses.
Your Average G&G Absol Pokemon line looks like this:
4 Absol
4 Ralts
3 Kirlia
2 Gardevoir
1 Gardevoir Lv.X
3 Gallade
One way to help stabilize the deck is to simply go -1 Absol and +1 Stantler. That way when your deck craps out on you, help is just a roseanne or Mentor away.
No cards really break a game. 1 of the things i like about TGW is that if you play against the same players enough and watch how they behave you can predict what they will use 99% of the time. Same goes for Mars. Watch how your opponent holds their hands and which cards they look at. It takes a bit of the luck out of it . One ofthe great things about being so out of things (I run a league in tasmania which is lyk an island at the bottom of Australia) is that most decks you see are original. I help finetune them and we have very interesting battles. Ironically I always build a deck very similar to metagame and then later discover it is widely used. I used Flygon Ex d' and now i using gardygalade (with furret ).
. One ofthe great things about being so out of things (I run a league in tasmania which is lyk an island at the bottom of Australia) is that most decks you see are original. I help finetune them and we have very interesting battles. Ironically I always build a deck very similar to metagame and then later discover it is widely used. I used Flygon Ex d' and now i using gardygalade (with furret ).Yeah I really like your league Yelsha... im glad to hear stories about Tasmania's league . As i've said, I don't think Absol 'breaks' the game, it just takes a lot of the fun out of it, and does bring it down to chance.
I think some players don't like the psychological aspect of stuff like Absol, Mars and TGW as well what that actually do in game. Sometimes psychological warfare can turn nasty, not anything questionable by the rules, but attempting to irritate the opponent into mistakes or predictable behaviour, the fact his or hand is being reduced to nothing despite the fact they had counters to Absol surely doesn't help them.
I believe the game should be fun for both players so I myself avoid psychological games, though I can play them. Not that I believe you are being nasty, not a bit of it, if you don't take serious psychological games are fun. However in competitive environment, I believe it can turn nasty.
As I said I avoid psychological games where possible, I just play the Trading card game and not any other game. I don't look at the cards, I shuffle them out and offer them to my opponent to choose, and find out what went missing later. If I was playing tournament I'd have cards for RPS and pull them out randomly, but as I'm not I just play the game, Oddly enough I'm winning RPS a bit more then I used to be though and I used to lose it about 80% of the time, I don't think much about what I pull out, could be chance, may be not.
. As i've said, I don't think Absol 'breaks' the game, it just takes a lot of the fun out of it, and does bring it down to chance. I think some players don't like the psychological aspect of stuff like Absol, Mars and TGW as well what that actually do in game. Sometimes psychological warfare can turn nasty, not anything questionable by the rules, but attempting to irritate the opponent into mistakes or predictable behaviour, the fact his or hand is being reduced to nothing despite the fact they had counters to Absol surely doesn't help them.
I believe the game should be fun for both players so I myself avoid psychological games, though I can play them. Not that I believe you are being nasty, not a bit of it, if you don't take serious psychological games are fun
. However in competitive environment, I believe it can turn nasty.As I said I avoid psychological games where possible, I just play the Trading card game and not any other game. I don't look at the cards, I shuffle them out and offer them to my opponent to choose, and find out what went missing later
. If I was playing tournament I'd have cards for RPS and pull them out randomly, but as I'm not I just play the game, Oddly enough I'm winning RPS a bit more then I used to be though and I used to lose it about 80% of the time, I don't think much about what I pull out, could be chance, may be not.
vanderbilt_grad
New Member
I agree that it would help in many situations ... but the fact of the matter is that if you are running Absol you want to start with him and the way to do that is to run 4 and minimized the number of other basics. When Cities first started I ran GG with Stantler but after seeing Absol in action and doing some testing I realized that it was a better start for GG much of the time. When I started with Stantler I got my setup ... but it nearly always gave my opponent time to set up too. I also found that many opponents would either snipe or just keep seting up themselves until I attached to Stantler and retreated. With Absol my setup was indeed less consistent but it nearly always made my opponent's even more inconsistent as well as giving me easy options to go aggro if needed (I ran 4 special dark so could do 50 for 1 if needed for a quick basic KO). I tried 3 Absol & 1 Stantler and it just didn't do what I wanted. The Absol starts weren't as frequent and the problem with speed was right back at me.
My deck never "craped out" on me at Cities, though I faced at least one GG deck that more consistent. Some of that was undoubtedly luck, but I think that a lot had to do with the trainers and obsessive shuffling.
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