TGW and Absol - Their Effect on OP

[Squirtle]

I agree that it would help in many situations ... but the fact of the matter is that if you are running Absol you want to start with him and the way to do that is to run 4 and minimized the number of other basics.

You don't lose THAT much from cutting one of your Absols and in return you gain SOOO much.



GardeGallade+Absol is an in-consistent deck, that's a fact. I ran 4 Celio and a BeBe, and still didn't get t3 Garde or Gallade every game



I guess the question is, do the Pros out weigh the Cons? In this case they do. WORST case scenario, you start with stantler (or ralts, you have the same odds of starting with stantler/absol as you do a ralts). You attach to it and use lead. You can get a celio or a roseanne or a bebe or whatever. You are ALREADY in that much better shape. Next turn you simply retreat to absol.

Maybe my style of play allows this, there is plenty of logic behind my reasoning, and I think that most people will agree with it.


If you date back to the Blaze/Gatr/LBS/whatever , you'll see that alot of these decks would cut down on their ideal starter pokes to overall increase stability.


Blaze, most of them cut down on 1 dunsparce(SS) in order to add 1 Jirachi(HL or DX, both were amazing).
Gatr, no Gatr deck ran 4 Cleffa even though it was OBVIOUSLY the best starter pokemon in HISTORY.
LBS, Yeah it wanted to start with Jirachi(pref HL, but good ones ran DX too), but it only ran 1 of each


The point i'm trying to get you to see is that the deck doesn't need 4 absol to be good, worst case scenario is you don't baleful wind untill t2.... OH NO!

 

[Rainbowgym]

It's so easy you add 1 pokemon and you are having a better match up against any Absol variation.
Forget it.
You need the GET them and please don't give me that crap about you can draw/search into them.

Serious, this game always had a portion of luck needed to win, and while facing Absol you need at least 2000% more luck. At least I do, no matter what "counter" I play.
Well I am not born on Sunday maybe that's the problem.

 

[Vegeta ss4]

Absol isn't broken at all. It is a very good card but can be easily worked around. it is a pain in the butt, thats all it is. I don't know if someone mentioned this but if this institute a card that can do what Yata-Garasu can do, then that would be considered a broken card.
edit-Squirtle mentioned the yata garasu...

 

[Squirtle]

It's so easy you add 1 pokemon and you are having a better match up against any Absol variation.
Forget it.
You need the GET them and please don't give me that crap about you can draw/search into them.

Lia... It really is THAT easy.Your acting like you just pick up your cards when Absol comes out. It really is that easy to beat Absol =]

Most (well built) decks have ways to search out basics.


Magmortar has Corsolla, G&G has 4 Roseanne/Mentor and 4 Celio/1 BeBe.


That's 9 ways to search it out + whatever your teching in. If it's 1 or 2. That gives you 10 ways to search it out. Unless your incredibly unlucky they won't take all of your ways to search your tech out.


I'm not going to argue with you about this, because i'm going to be honest - I don't care if people think absol is broken. I actually hope they do, will take alot of the guessing out of State Championships

 

[Rainbowgym]

Serious you don't know my bad luck. I played Magmortar/Typhlosion/Delcatty with 18 (yes 18) nrg in it.
Along with Roseanna's and still didn't get a single nrg until turn 7.
You can ask along overhere about my luck, I don't have it.

Ask the Magmortar player from Avon Park I played the 5th round.
I took 3 prizes with my stupid Absol tech, but didn't draw into any of my supporters while playing enough of them.
I showed him my deck after I lost and he couldn't believe (beside 1) all my supporters were still in there.

Anyway Absol is a stupid card, involves a lot of luck, so for me ---> binder.
It's so easy to say, add this or this to a deck and it will perform better.
It's like saying with 18 basics you should not have mulligans.
It happens and to some people more often as others.

Not only with Absol/Wager but with most part of this game, it doesn't matter so much if you are good, if you don't have luck you loose.
You need the luck more than skills.


note- I did the math several times for each of my decks, counting how many options I had to draw/search for what I needed and I can assure you it was enough in theory.

 

[P_A]

Yeah, that's usually the case with me too Lia. What I think sounds good in theory, but putting it into practice is a bit harder. However you might try running a "Disable" Sableye just in case.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

GardeGallade+Absol is an in-consistent deck, that's a fact. I ran 4 Celio and a BeBe, and still didn't get t3 Garde or Gallade every game

I'll agree that it's a bit inconsistent ... but then again my trainer setup was very different. I ran 3 Celios and 2 Roseanne's and 2 Dual Balls.

I guess the question is, do the Pros out weigh the Cons? In this case they do. WORST case scenario, you start with stantler (or ralts, you have the same odds of starting with stantler/absol as you do a ralts). You attach to it and use lead. You can get a celio or a roseanne or a bebe or whatever. You are ALREADY in that much better shape. Next turn you simply retreat to absol.

The point i'm trying to get you to see is that the deck doesn't need 4 absol to be good, worst case scenario is you don't baleful wind untill t2.... OH NO!

My expeirence was that a lucky T1 Baleful Wind could win games. I know ... I'm talking luck ... but I also strongly believe that you make some of your own luck. The more chances you give yourself to be lucky the more you WILL be lucky. Sure you will not get lucky all the time, and maybe not even most of the time, but you will have breaks go your way eventually if you have enough oppertunities.

The other thing is that Ralts can potentially confuse or sleep on T1 so it fits the opening disruption strat. That's one of several synergies going on with Absol and GG.

Stantler WORKS, but it doesn't combo nearly as well IMHO. I totally get where you are coming from and saw the same effect with things like Chingling earlier in the season. There were some games with that earlier deck where I would exchange a prize (chingling) to get the supporter I needed to win the game ... and with Stantler you might not even have to give up a prize to do so. But that was then. What i see in the Cities format is SPEED & Sniping. Mags level X doing 100 to the bench and being a speedy stage 1. T2 Tune (yeah not a deck to you but it forces you to be fast too). Blissey doing 70 T2 sometimes. What I saw was that either a) I had to have a really fast setup or b) that I had to slow down my opponents while I set up. Absol is b) all the way and Stantler just didn't give me enough of a).

 

[DarthPika]

If G&G decks(with absol or not) don't take early board /card advantage they simply don't win.

Actually, I came back from being behind 3 prizes twice to beat G&G.

And for all the ppl who are complaining about Magmortor and G&G, I'm serious when I say this, try Hurricane.

Honestly it has a fairly even matchup against G&G, and it's definitly in Hurricanes favor if they don't use Absol. And Magmortor, has weakness, and in my testings Hurricane usaly wins. BTW in no way am I saying that Magmortor is an easy matchup for Hurricane, it just is type advantage.

 

[Squirtle]

I'll agree that it's a bit inconsistent ... but then again my trainer setup was very different. I ran 3 Celios and 2 Roseanne's and 2 Dual Balls.

I dont get it, how do you EVER get set with that being your search? I have 4 Celios,4 Roseanne and a BeBe.... Well regardless, I thik we've established that Absol is a luck based card, while yes it's good, it does require luck.


Which really isn't saying much. NO ONE wins a tournament by skill alone..It takes a deal of luck to win/place high in tournaments.


It takes a fair ammount of luck WITH a combination of being very skilled to win tournaments. I'm sure Fulop,Jaeger,John,and Rob will all tell you they had luck at nationals.


And i'm sure (Wait... Who won worlds this year?) whoever won worlds will tell you the same thing.

Actually, I came back from being behind 3 prizes twice to beat G&G.

And for all the ppl who are complaining about Magmortor and G&G, I'm serious when I say this, try Hurricane.

Honestly it has a fairly even matchup against G&G, and it's definitly in Hurricanes favor if they don't use Absol. And Magmortor, has weakness, and in my testings Hurricane usaly wins. BTW in no way am I saying that Magmortor is an easy matchup for Hurricane, it just is type advantage.

I think you've completely missed the point whoever you are. I never said that decks can't come back to beat G&G, I said that G&G has to take early board control to win. BIG difference .

I agree with you that Hurricane would beat Magmortar, I mean It seems that it would be fairly easy as you say. Having never played hurricane in my life, I couldn't say one way or the other.

 

[fchangus2]

Hurricane beats Magmortar but Magmortar is still BDIF (well... until States come around)

 

[Jaeger]

Baneful wind should cost a dark that would decks like Honchkrow play it but it would not show up in half the decks in top cut.

 

[chriscobi634]

Baneful wind should cost a dark that would decks like Honchkrow play it but it would not show up in half the decks in top cut.

QFT, I was just saying that at Chicago. If both attacks required to be dark then half the decks couldn't run Absol. Meaning if you wanted to run Absol you would have to run it with other dark pokemon or multi. Either way it would slow the card down a little bit.

As it is, I personally hate the card. For that simple reason I've design my decks to take care of it by T2. Switching out my tool count from 2 strength charm/3 buffer piece to the other way around: 3 SC, 2 BP. Not only that but in my Magmortar/Quagsire build I switched to the Amnesia Delta Species Wooper who has 20 less HP then the SW Wooper.

 

[Rainbowgym]

Baneful wind should cost a dark that would decks like Honchkrow play it but it would not show up in half the decks in top cut.

Indeed and also the pulled cards should go into your deck iso the discard.
Disruptive enough imo.

Just an example of a game I play a few minutes ago.
absol/gardy against my gardy/blastoise (with 3 corsola + stantler in it)

start absol active, ralts bench me ralts active. ( I have in hand 2 gardy and 4 nrg)
absol discards gardy.
Draw toise, attach nrg to ralts flip for confused, miss.
absol discards 2nd gardy.
draw Night maintenance. attach nrg to ralts, flip miss.
absol discards toise. thanks I can keep the NM.
draw Kirlia, play NM and Kirlia, nrg to Kirlia but there are NO supporters to use so 40 on his fully loaded Gallade.
Next turn I am history.
While stage 1 decks, might survive this discard game, a stage 2 deck doesn't.

I have seen to many times 2 of my Celio's going to the discard, or Birch+Celio or more fun 2 Candy.
And there is almost no way to get them back (drifblim beside).

This format has nothing to do with "well build" decks. Give any new player a Absol/Gallade and if they are born lucky they will win easily.
It's also a combination of not having enough cards in the pool, Mixed with the fact, half of the pool has double weakness and you are set and done to a boring luck filled format.
According to my son who won almost ALL Battle Roads and CC's overhere, it's no fun at all.

 

[Prime]

Rainbowgym, I've found when making my stage 2 decks that because of the space of the stage 2 lines, I have less room for trainers. Because of that, each trainer plays a huge role (Celio, Castaway, Roseanne, etc). Because there are less trainers, when Absol discards a trainer, it makes a difference. And because of the stage 2 line(s), when Absol discards a stage 1 or 2, that makes a difference too. Only when he discards a basic, an energy, or a non-supporter trainer does Absol not hinder my setup greatly.

In comparison, with stage 1 decks, you can run more trainers, and have less pokemon. So that gives you more trainers the Absol can discard but a higher chance of the trainers being not as game-breaking like er2 or a stadium.

So it seems that Absol disrupts better against big stage 2 decks than with smaller stage 1 decks.

Just an observance of mine. Anyone want to agree or disagree?

 

[chriscobi634]

So it seems that Absol disrupts better against big stage 2 decks than with smaller stage 1 decks.

Just an observance of mine. Anyone want to agree or disagree?

I would say it's about the same for a T2 or Stage 2 deck. I like I mentioned before I have alway ran Magmortar this CC season and if Absol manages to get a Quickball (i ran 4) or a Celio (2) then yeah it hurts because it's until T3 that I KO their Absol with my Magmar. So then it goes down to the flip whether I go first or they go first. Because if you do the simple math if they go first then they get 3 Baleful Winds if I go first they only get 2 regardless whether I get magmortar or not. If i get magmortar I still have to draw into a strength charm or castaway, if i do then they only get 1 baleful wind and a very confused face.

Every game I have played against a Garde/Gallade have ran it with Furret, that matchup is about 50/50. So I couldn't really tell how much it hurts the Gardy/Gallade player if you get the T2/T3 KO on their Absol. Because I have seen the way the Absol version of G/G run and it's much slower then with Furret.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

This format has nothing to do with "well build" decks. Give any new player a Absol/Gallade and if they are born lucky they will win easily.
It's also a combination of not having enough cards in the pool, Mixed with the fact, half of the pool has double weakness and you are set and done to a boring luck filled format.
According to my son who won almost ALL Battle Roads and CC's overhere, it's no fun at all.

I will have to disagree with that comment though. Well built decks can take on Gardy/Gallade with or without Absol. Twice this weekend I lost to Garde/Gallade with Furret simply because I need 10 more seconds against a slow player. He even admitted that if I get my next turn I win both games, and it was the same person, same rounds, same outcome; I lost on time, he took 3 prizes I only took 2. In a top cut I win that first game and then play extremely slow the next game to give them a dose of their own medicine and win it on time.

Pooka has a very good matchup versus Garde/Gallade with his Magmortar/Typholosion/Delcatty build. I would say it's 55/45. Now it may not seem lob sided but most of the time I see that Pooka has control of the game.

 

[meganium45]

Any format is dull if you can just play against inferior opponents and dominate them.

This format is DEFINITELY not a one poke format.

Absol/Magmortar, Absol/GG are two very powerful decks, but they got sat on this weekend by some good players at some cities.

The Blisseys will give them trouble, and have.

Clever players will even come up with decks like...Banette/Crobat to throw GG players on their ear.

(It won, it has won, and it will win)

I have not heard this amount of sour grapes about a pokemon, since, well, Pidgeot. Before that it was Delcatty, before that it was Cleffa, Slowking and Sneasel, Feraligatr, before that it was ER and ER2,

This deck is definitely not a non-thinking deck. A new player cannot play it and win with it. Can't happen.

There are tough choices to be made.

Vince

 

[Squirtle]

Any format is dull if you can just play against inferior opponents and dominate them.

This format is DEFINITELY not a one poke format.

Absol/Magmortar, Absol/GG are two very powerful decks, but they got sat on this weekend by some good players at some cities.

The Blisseys will give them trouble, and have.

Clever players will even come up with decks like...Banette/Crobat to throw GG players on their ear.

(It won, it has won, and it will win)

I have not heard this amount of sour grapes about a pokemon, since, well, Pidgeot. Before that it was Delcatty, before that it was Cleffa, Slowking and Sneasel, Feraligatr, before that it was ER and ER2,

This deck is definitely not a non-thinking deck. A new player cannot play it and win with it. Can't happen.

There are tough choices to be made.

Vince

QFT

 

[Rainbowgym]

First of all Blisseys most times gives each deck problems.
And for Blissey it's the same as for Gardy/Absol, it's easy to run.

What is there to think about?
mmmmm shall I discard the card on the left or on the right, or which supporter am I going to use. And that's all the thinking Absol/Gardy needs.
It's the same with Blissey, shall I use my boost/pluspower now or wait for a turn and which nrg will I discard with TV reporter.

Absol doesn't even come close to Pidgeot/Gatr/Delcatty those are of another level. It's indeed more in the order of Cleffa, ER and ER2.

 

[ToysRUsKid]

Pooka has a very good matchup versus Garde/Gallade with his Magmortar/Typholosion/Delcatty build. I would say it's 55/45. Now it may not seem lob sided but most of the time I see that Pooka has control of the game.

Gallade v. Mag is FAR from 55/45. Its more like 70/30

 

[Venjamin]

Sorry, but no matter what, there is no card out right now that breaks anything. ANYTHING. xD Absol is a bad card. Plain and simple. People start with it, hooray them! They drop two cards from my hand, yay them! Any deck should be able to come back from a t1 absol drop [ even double drop ] without even batting an eye. No deck I've played has had any serious detriment to Absol getting Baleful Wind. Even if they drop a celio and another draw card, or a PP and a search or any other combination in between - it doesn't even phase me.

I'm trying to figure out why everyone has such a hard time against this guy. I've been TGW'd and Absol'd, and was -still- able to have hardly any problems on my side. Absol can't hold its own against almost any deck - 70 HP isn't enough to take more than an attack or two against any stage one or stage two style deck.

Sorry guys, but absol can't be compared to Yata. Not until he keeps all the cards out of your hand forever. xD