Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

The case for pre-releases

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I've posted this before, but it doesn't seem to have been listened to.
Also, some other facts have been repeatedly stated incorrectly.
Let's state the facts a few times to make sure everyone has them and is on the same page.

We have to pay sales tax.
We have to pay sales tax.
We have to pay sales tax.
We have to pay sales tax.
We have to pay sales tax.
We have to pay sales tax.

Retail price is $3.99 per pack.
That means that 8 packs at retail, before tax, is $31.92
And add tax to that.
Let's use what it is here in NJ, 7%. That's +$2.23.
The total retail value of the cards, then, is $34.15
So, $30.00 is 14% below retail.

Let's repeat that.
$30.00 is 14% below retail.
$30.00 is 14% below retail.
$30.00 is 14% below retail.
$30.00 is 14% below retail.
$30.00 is 14% below retail.

That is not a rip-off, in my opinion, Wayne.

Granted, people can easily buy boxes for less than retail.
By all means, those that just want cards at the cheapest price possible, please go buy your boxes and stop trying to compare shopping at Costco for a side of beef with the cost of a meal at a restaurant.
It's a stupid, meaningless comparison.

A prerelease event is not a box of cards received in the mail.
 
But that's not the crux of what I'm comparing Mike. That was a direct reply to another statement.

I am comparing relative cost/price break for an advertising event of years past to the ones of today. $15 for 10 packs that retailed at MSRP $2.99/pack + 7.75% sales tax (at the time) = $32.22 full retail, or 53.45% below retail (not even figuring prizes). You couldn't buy anywhere for that. ANYWHERE.

Today's prerelease prices are like having an event for a new coca-cola product and charging $1.71 per bottle of coke after you drive out of your way to go to the event. However, Coca-Cola at their promotional events gives the product away for free. Sure, they're a much larger company, but the reason those products are free is BECAUSE IT COMES FROM THE ADVERTISING BUDGET. Now, I realize a smaller company can't do what a larger company does, but by eliminating the costs of distributors and charging essentially full retail INCREASES the profit to the company. Helluva promotional campaign there and far from a meaningless stupid comparisson.

And at the end of the day, I feel for you guys running these events trying to explain and cope with angry parents and players. You shouldn't have to. All the hard work you guys put into this shouldn't be rewarded with such a smack in the face. And, if the event I went to yesterday is any indication, you guys are putting up with more than your fair share.

Though it may not seem so at face value, the point I'm driving is to build the game, and take heat off the great people like yourself who week after week put their time and money into allowing players and fans alike a community of like minded individuals a place to play the game we love.
 
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PokePop said:
A prerelease event is not a box of cards received in the mail.
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The Juniors and Seniors in our league who attend pre-release events would never buy a whole box of cards - even if it were a "better value". They play for fun, and spend money only as their parents allow. To the non-Poke-parent, $30 is always a "better value" than $95. Always.

I agree with SD PokeMom - pre-releases have their place and their target audience. It may not be right for everyone. Our family attends pre-releases, opens by the box, and orders individual cards - it all depends on what we're looking for.

Perhaps we should consider it a good thing that Pokemon does not try to be all things to all people at all events. Even if there are different "markets" for Premier Tournaments, Pre-Releases, and Leagues - that simply relates to a broader market as a whole. More people see and experience Pokemon than if we only had League or Premier Tournaments. That's a good thing.
 
@waynegg: how many of the players playing TODAY played back when a pre was '$15 for 10 packs and had a box for first'?

imho, continually bringing that up is like bemoaning the fact that gas used to be $.35/gallon or a stamp was $.05...or that minimum wage used to be $2.12. things change.

it's not reality TODAY, and looking at the past through rose-colored glasses...i.e. back when TPCi just got the game back from WotC and was almost certainly running events at a loss in order to get players to return...does nothing but sow discontent in the community.

jmho.
 
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Ok... Bigbowlr and a few others that know me can vouch for me... I have a competive deck I play with at league every week (Darkrai Hydreigon) I get SCRAPED every week. I still have fun... I go to pre-releases and I get first place. my son has a blast and I do too... I ordered a case of BC I went to the PR to have fun. spent $50 between Draft and PR and got absolutly nothing in my packs. was it depressing? yes! but I stil had a blast got to meet new people and have fun games... heck had a amazing match against a girl named Robin between her Raticate & GOlduck vs my Black Kyurem (my best card pull) and Jellicent where else would a fun thing like that happen? after everything was over I questioned weather I would do another PR considering the 2 Ive been to I pulled nothing good but I will continue to go because they are FUN!
 
Why can't we get all 8 of our packs at the beginning, so it isn't as much of a crapshoot to build a deck.

They already increased the prices. It isn't even cost effective to attend them, so people can't exploit them anymore by bringing friends to get packs and drop.

If the price lured scamming, it won't be doing that anymore, so we can presume scamming is virtually nonexistent now. So let me get my 8 packs up front so I can actually USE THEM TO PLAY.

All I see are people pigeonholing the complaint.

PRs have never been complained about like this until now. At least accept that something is amiss instead of trying to pigeonhole sentiments and solutions.

Prices had to go up? Fine. Is it possible to increase them by $5 but throw an extra pack in? That's still more money than before. This is a compromise.
Prices had to go up? Fine. How about for ever 4 participants a pack is thrown into the prize pool. 32 participants, and there are 8 packs on the line. Every 3 participants- it doesn't matter. Even having the ability to win 4 or 8 packs is enough considering how few you got initially.
Prices had to go up? Fine. How about you just give me all 8 packs up front so I'm not stuck building these atrocious decks.

So many solutions to an obviously pressing issue. Instead, I just see rejection and reiteration of THEY ABSOLUTELY HAD TO GO UP and NOTHING can be compromised! Not an extra pack, not a prize structure, not giving packs up front, NOTHING. I don't even care about other possible solutions- don't bother.
 
I don't get the cheating argument. If someone tries to cheat at a pre release, they should earn their rightful ban from Pokemon. Banning the cheaters would largely discourage others from cheating.

And instead of placing the money burden on to's for the prizes, have tpci eat up the cost. What's it cost them, maybe $15 to produce and ship three boxes for each tournament? If pto's just paid the shipping and production costs on these prize boxes, then it would maybe be an additional 25-50 cents for each player to make up that additional expense.

Another alternative would be to do promo cards for the winners, similar to FNM. Take the featured EX from the set (Mewtwo, Darkrai, Rayquaza, Keldeo) and do 4 promos per an age division. Give promos to first and second, and then two promos to random players from a drawing who didn't finish in the top 2.

I just don't understand why any player wouldn't want more prizes at tournaments. I personally find it ridiculous that the one tournament we actually have to pay money for has absolutely no prize support.
 
If I was running a pre-release, I would hand out the 8 packs for people to make their decks out of, and just hold onto the promo and/or deck box until the player turned in his basic energy. That would ensure participation for the most part.

Are the TO's allowed to change the rules like that?
 
SD PokeMom said:
@waynegg: how many of the players playing TODAY played back when a pre was '$15 for 10 packs and had a box for first'?

imho, continually bringing that up is like bemoaning the fact that gas used to be $.35/gallon or a stamp was $.05...or that minimum wage used to be $2.12. things change.

it's not reality TODAY, and looking at the past through rose-colored glasses...i.e. back when TPCi just got the game back from WotC and was almost certainly running events at a loss in order to get players to return...does nothing but sow discontent in the community.

jmho.
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When there is so much discontent in a community YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT. Or are you advocating a state much like that of the book 1984 where everyone sticks their heads in the sand and takes whatever is spoon fed to them with no speaking out about it. If people DON'T voice their VALID concerns then NOTHING will ever change for the better.

And please explain "at a loss". Even taking VERY conservative numbers:

Retail- $4.19 per pack with a 35 margin means retailers pay $2.7235 per pack, which they buy from merchandisers.

Merchandisers get their product from distributors who get their 35 margin and each pack costs them around $1.7703.

Distributors gotta make their money too, so apply the same 35 margin and their cost is $1.1506 per pack.

Now obviously the company that owns and makes the product ain't doing it for free, so applying the same numbers and a pack costs them 74.79¢. Seventy-five CENTS.

This all includes shipping and handling! And, btw a 35% margin on total product cost is the baseline a company needs to make in order to be profitable. I have no intimate knowledge of what Pokemon's actual numbers are, but if they aren't at least THIS then that division isn't profitable.

So why, please explain, does direct marketing (which eliminates the distributors and merchandisers) for a promotional event cost $3.75 per pack when even with conservative numbers, that makes the company profit $3 for each and every pack sold at a prerelease. I'm not bemoaning anything and I'm sure not looking at the past through rose colored glasses. The numbers are what the numbers are and it's neither fair to those who buy the product nor to the T.O.'s who are faced with "bemoaning" players and families.
 
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Charranitar said:
I personally find it ridiculous that the one tournament we actually have to pay money for has absolutely no prize support.
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This is exactly how I feel. The company uses cheating as an excuse to cut prizes, ban the use of foreign cards ("people can have translations out for cards they don't have in their deck"), ban the use of drawing on your cards regardless of how it is altered, and other things that are completely ridiculous. I have better solutions to all of these issues

Pre-release "cheating" - Ban and DQ cheaters. Easy

Foreign Cards - I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that the real reason they banned the use of foreign cards is because a lot of people would rather use foreign cards than American ones for various reasons. Solution to this? Make the cards actually decent quality, and imitate Japan's production methods by printing good cards in theme decks, making box sets with staples in them, and making the pull ratios in sealed boxes not awful. A little more work but this would make people less inclined to go through the hassle of using foreign cards.

Drawing on Cards - I seriously don't understand what the issue is. If cards are drawn on outside the artwork frame, ban them. If there is inappropriate material within the art frame, ban it and issue cautions etc. Easy and common sense. People like using cards that have autographs on them, or funny faces on their favorite pokemon. You aren't helping make a case for people to play the game when you make such strict guidelines for the game.
 
What I don’t like about the prerelease is that it is a Sealed Draft. Yes kids/non-competitive/new players love sealed drafts because it is easy to understand and they get new cards. The problem with sealed draft is that there is nothing in it for Competitive/experienced players except for the new cards. There are no additional prizes on the line and there is no challenge to draw the Competitive/experienced players to a prerelease. Without a challenge, competitive/experienced players will not find prereleases fun.

What I would like to see is Pass/Rochester/Solomon drafts at prereleases so there is at least a challenging aspect to the prerelease. Keep the prizes the same to prevent cheating, but at least introduce Pass/Rochester/Solomon drafts to prereleases to allow the competitive/experienced player a chance to have fun in an untraditional format.

The response to my idea of Pass/Rochester/Solomon drafts at prerelease is going to be “what about the kids/non-competitive/new players, they won’t understand other draft formats”. I agree that these other draft formats do not cater to kids/non-competitive/new players just as sealed doesn’t cater to competitive/experienced players. Suggestion- For prerelease events, have two tournaments, one sealed draft to cater to the kids/non-competitive/new players and a Pass/Rochester/Solomon draft to cater to the competitive/experienced players. The lack of prizes and the cost may be an issue for some players, but the fact that there is an option to play in a challenging format could draw players back to prerelease events.
 
I think a more sensible argument would be why can't a prerelease cater 2 types of events rather than 1. I know at least in my state we don't so much do theme deck challenge any more due to only 3~ people ever playing in them so if you're in a group that does TDC make 2 types of events 3 rather than 2.

Would it be something worth looking at to hold a "traditional" prerelease of the 6+2 packs with deck box and promo card and a draft event where you pay the same, but only get six packs prize support is 2*the number of players divided amongst 1st 2nd 3rd 4th(?) as deemed appropriate along with your deck box and promo. Now you have events that cater to likely the majority who want to go and just open six packs and have a new league deck and you have an event that draws in competitive players who wouldn't normally attend your prerelease. Yes it goes back to the whole cheating argument, but I feel if it is an event designed to cater to competitive players they go in with the mentality they will have to treat it like a real tournament and do not resent filling in a deck list and a cards drafted list. Just two cents on the side of EVERYONE should have fun AS CLOSE TO ALL the time possible.
 
SD PokeMom said:
aren't you just describing the side events some PTOs do, assuming product availability?
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Those are the -side- events. Not the main event. They aren't the focus and many events that I've gone to don't have them at all. Going off of what LOLZ said, they should have a sealed section (which I still think should be under a league section), and a heavily advertised draft pod section. Having both going on concurrently could require a lot of effort from the TO, so I can see an issue there. Even so, diverting the "main event" to a league section could definitely help. The "main event" and the drafts being at the same time and effectively equal would definitely solve most-- if not all of our problems. Good idea, LOLZ.
 
SD PokeMom said:
aren't you just describing the side events some PTOs do, assuming product availability?
Click to expand...

No, 2 different Main Events at a prerelease.

Sealed Draft- 6 packs to build a deck with. 2 more packs, promo card and Deck Box given to all players at the end of tournament.

Pass/Rochester/Solomon Draft- 60 cards to build deck with (drafted using 6 packs per player at the table) with. 2 packs, promo card and Deck Box given to all players at the end of tournament.

Same amount of product needed for both events, so same price for both events. Have both of these at the same time and give players an option of which event to play in. Having options will cater to more players and increase attendance.

Then, assuming product availability, have side events.

---------- Post added 10/29/2012 at 04:48 PM ----------
z-man said:
Those are the -side- events. Not the main event. They aren't the focus and many events that I've gone to don't have them at all. Going off of what LOLZ said, they should have a sealed section (which I still think should be under a league section), and a heavily advertised draft pod section. Having both going on concurrently could require a lot of effort from the TO, so I can see an issue there. Even so, diverting the "main event" to a league section could definitely help. The "main event" and the drafts being at the same time and effectively equal would definitely solve most-- if not all of our problems. Good idea, LOLZ.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "league section"?
 
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LOLZ said:
No, 2 different Main Events at a prerelease.

Sealed Draft- 6 packs to build a deck with. 2 more packs, promo card and Deck Box given to all players at the end of tournament.

Pass/Rochester/Solomon Draft- 60 cards to build deck with (drafted using 6 packs per player at the table) with. 2 packs, promo card and Deck Box given to all players at the end of tournament.

Same amount of product needed for both events, so same price for both events. Have both of these at the same time and give players an option of which event to play in. Having options will cater to more players and increase attendance.

Then, assuming product availability, have side events.

---------- Post added 10/29/2012 at 04:48 PM ----------



What do you mean by "league section"?
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Bad terminology. I think that if the "main event" for prereleases is geared towards younger kids, why run a tournament at all? It'd be better off that they run a league system whereby players are required to play 5 games, fill out a punch card (or whatever), and report to the TO at the end. This system would fit the purpose of the main event better than a normal tournament, and it'd allow us to play against people who we want to play against (our friends). Playing who we want (especially when there's no reason to be competitive) is typically more fun than playing against random people. Moreover, it'd probably save time and effort from the TO. The judge would be able to help as normal, and it'd be a less restrictive system than tournaments.
 
Also just a little food for thought this is TPCI's exact quote on tournaments and winners: "Leagues reward players for playing games, win or lose; tournaments reward players for winning." It is kind of misleading to call a Prerelease Event a tournament when it doesn't follow TPCI's view on what a tournament is. If I come and get 2 packs being 6-0 or 0-6 or some combination in between that isn't being rewarded for winning no matter how you slice it. The PROMOTIONAL items are just that items used to promote the game. Nothing wrong with that but let's not try to say the prize is your two packs at the end. Let's not call the promo items your prize as everyone gets them.

What a prerelease is right now is a structured league day with a goofy format. Could call it League Plus as it's an intro to how a tournament is played out, but by definition it is not a tournament.
 
Great posts, Anthony.

I think we can make this entire situation a dichotomy.

Make the cost/benefit increase:
-reduce the cost of the event (won't be done since they increased it recently)
-increase the benefit of the event (by establishing prize support, even if just a little, or increasing the pack count)
/OR/
Distribute the resources differently:
-give all 8 packs at once
-do a different style of draft

People are dissatisfied with how PRs are beginning to look. You can ignore it, or you can perhaps try to compromise and improve the situation for everyone.

Either solution is fine. I would like prizes, or a 9th pack, or pass draft, or all 8 packs at once. Any of those seem to make the event more appealing, and they are ordered by decreasing difficulty of implementation.
 
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