Sabett
Active Member
Missed that thanks. Better I suppose, but one of the complaints about the Lv.X and Prime tins were that they're just rehashed cards.
The new tins were even more fail than I expected
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TheGeneral
Active Member
Rehashed cards = $$$ for TPCi, kids love those things.
Articjedi
Active Member
Since when were all of these supposed to be essential to competitive play?
Pokemon isn't built for draft, game is forced to be combo specific because we have evolution lines, magic cards stand alone so it's easier to build draft sets. The last attempt to create a sealed friendly set was legendary collection over 8 years ago, where every booster contained several complete 2/1 and 1/1 evolution lines in the same color.
We don't need to support unlimited, no new players have the cards. Last time I saw an unlimited tournament run, no one showed up. We had nice prizes too. This was the case for almost every other one run around the country. We're in a unique position because pokemon changed hands and supporting unlimited doesn't support the new management. The boost in player base also prevents unlimited from being a viable format because new players are unable to find the old cards.
We already have a base set, in the form of staples reprinted every year. Even then, base sets are never set in stone, and neither are the staples we're used to. We have a defacto base set made up of staple cards printed in different sets.
DJGigabyte
Forum Moderator
No, the complaints about the tins were that they were rehashed cards that were unplayable, and all the complaints came from players.
I have personally never heard one complaint about the Garchomp Lv X tin.
Why? Because it's a playable promo, and the players are the ones who complain about this stuff.
Not lol at all collectors. I don't buy into all the 'I paid a zillion dollars for my card, so should you'. I welcome any and all reprints of cards into English, even if that does mean that all the cards I have become worthless.
I buy to collect, not to invest. Don't really see the problem in cards being maade available to everyone...
Sabett
Active Member
Did you just completely ignore the point of that post? The collectors out weigh players in pokemon, giving examples of an unlimited tournament, and sets that aren't balanced for drafting would only further prove my point. Also, a boost in player base would only create more of a need for larger and multiple formats. Rare candy, sp metal, sp dark, rainbow energy, pokeball and plus power being reprinted over and over again is by no means a base set. That's like printing the bare minimum to keep a basic and simple format going, creating completely new things to replace those spots would be too much effort on the designers. If we had a base set... it would be in the form of a base set, not a handful of cards.
I've heard waynegg complain plenty of times that the old tins were lame because they just gave you a different art of an old card and wasn't really liked among collectors. He went on and talked about how collectors would like it a lot more to get a completely different card instead of the same card with a minute difference.
Articjedi
Active Member
So what if there are more collectors than players? The point I'm trying to make is that none of the things you mentioned are an appropriate metric for a successful system of organized play. I'm assuming you're drawing off magic and yugioh for your idea of what's successful, but you have to remember that pokemon works off a completely different set of circumstances than both of them. Pokemon has to take it's own path, otherwise the game won't survive in any form.
There isn't a single popular card game that has a true base set. And before you say magic: the gathering, they haven't had a true base set in two years. The core sets have been printing new cards for the past two years. And few of the reprints are there for more than a couple years. Wizards realized that printing different cards was more effective for sales than rehashing cards.
A boost in player base doesn't mean a need for more formats either. Unlimited is unfeasible, are you seriously going to tell me that if you started an unlimited tournament, that people would show up? We don't need to support unlimited to have a healthy OP. We need to focus on the sets that are coming out with the formats that are easier to support. It's pretty obvious from nats attendance numbers that modified has not hit a saturation point, there is no reason to risk offending current op in order to vary the play. Nor do we need to start adding limited formats. Pokemon by basic design is bad for drafting because of evolution lines, we'd have to make completely different separate pokemon VS (sets never released in america where there were no evolved pokemon, everything counted as a basic) style sets for drafting. So we'd be essentially playing a different game. OP is healthy, it doesn't need any drastic changes like the ones you propose.
I'm a little ticked about the SW re-release as well. I can't understand why they would even think of doing that.
The cards can't even be played legally anymore.
Reprints of rare cards? I don't mind. I'm a collector. I'd rather be able to get the art then never get it because I can't afford to shell out the money for some cardboard. (And trust me, I've shelled out quite a bit already for figures and plush.)
I'm just happy we get the tins and promo.
The cards can't even be played legally anymore.
Reprints of rare cards? I don't mind. I'm a collector. I'd rather be able to get the art then never get it because I can't afford to shell out the money for some cardboard. (And trust me, I've shelled out quite a bit already for figures and plush.)
I'm just happy we get the tins and promo.
Sabett
Active Member
The things I mentioned are essential for thriving OP when the vast majority of the fanbase consists of players. When the majority of the fanbase is players, they're really not going to like the idea of the cards they have being utterly useless in a couple of years. If you took away all the formats in magic except for the one consisting of only the most recent sets, there would be a ridiculous uproar and a large amount of players quiting, therefore destroying their fanbase. Pokemon is not like this, eliminating a vast majority of the card pool in it's entirety doesn't affect the fanbase at all, they're mostly collectors, for the most part OP isn't that big of an issue to them.
Uh, a base set does not have to be 100% reprints either... Magic does have base sets, also half of the "new" cards in those base sets are basically old cards with different names on them. Magic made cards with set specific names tying them to a certain story line, they just reprinted those cards with a generic name. So no, magic absolutely has a base set.
Once again you seem to not be able to grasp what I'm saying. In no way shape or form am I suggesting that OP should start making unlimited or draft tournaments. I'm saying that pokemon has a larger collector base, and that it's fanbase doesn't have a large enough portion of players in order to support unlimited or draft tournaments. Therefore it's understandable that their promo items that they sell are more focused towards collectors, and that these promo items show that they understand this fact.
Also, pokemon can work just fine with draft, all it would take is a little more attention to the sets they make, and draft mutant style. At that point it becomes very comparable to magic style drafting.
RogueDecker
New Member
I think they should make the 3 dogs from SW legal again since they are in the tins.
Isn't Palkia Lv. X still legal because it was realeased in a tin..
Isn't Palkia Lv. X still legal because it was realeased in a tin..
nnaann
New Member
Palkia X is legal because of the tin version being printed in the tins as part of the DP promos, as opposed to a Great Encounters card. The same happened with Claydol as a league promo last season, because it kept the Great Encounters logo it was deemed to be the same as the pack version and rotated. If these dogs were listed as part of the HGSS Promos, then they would have become legal again.
Zarmakuizz
New Member
Can anyone take a picture of these tin's content ? The Pokebeach's watermark is ugly :frown:
RB Golbat
New Member
Palkia Lv X is NOT legal because it was reprinted a DP18, and only DP22 onwards is legal.
nnaann
New Member
I thought I read a thread which said one of the GE Tin Promos was legal, I think it was Dialga?
As a general point, I'm totallying loving DJ's posts on this thread. For some reason they're making me laugh (sarcasm rules :thumb
even though I agree with most of what he said
A couple of things here:
1) There aren't two types of people interested in Pokémon, there's three. Players and Collectors are both really into the cards. The reasons might be different but the devotion is there in both groups.
For example, just as it takes time and dedication to win tournaments, it took time and dedication to create the Catalogue project (yes, shameless plug there!).
So whats the third group? I'll call them the Casuals. These are the kids who drag their mum to buy a pack everytime they visit the supermarket. They are the biggest group in Pokémon, like it or not.
In the end, it doesn't really matter what is in the tins. As long as Pokémon is healthy, you can pretty much guarantee people will buy.
2) DJ's example wasn't misleading at all. Making 2/13 = 15%+ return on your investment is pretty good. In fact, it's exceptionally good. People really should be buying these by the truckload and selling them off (cleverly of course, so as to not depress the market). You'd be turning a pretty profit on these :wink:
Of course, the point isn't that you could get rich by doing this. It's the quite blatantly you are getting free stuff with your boosters. That is always a sweet deal really.
I was all ready for agreeing with you 100% and then I saw this comment about the Core sets.
Base sets do not have to be all reprints. In fact, arbitrarily having this rule meant that for a long time, cards had to be randomly inserted into Magic expansions purely so they could be reprinted in the base sets.
Getting rid of that rule meant that base sets could use cards that it needed rather than making do with what's best.
What type of cards should go into a Base set (this applies to Pokémon too obviously)
- Basic staples of the game. In Pokémon terms, I'm thinking the main trainers that are used (not the overly powerful ones, just the ones which are needed all the time). Things like drawing cards, searching decks, switching Benched Pokémon, some stadiums and healing effects. Doesn't need to be powerful (in fact, its better that they're not), it just needs to be standard thing needed at all times
- Pokémon with standard attacks and powers
- Some flashy Pokémon (at the higher rarities and mostly evolutions). This could be interesting attacks that don't really do much or some powerful attacks
and that's about it really. The sets should also have the latest gimmick (for HS sets the Legend and Prime cards) but these obviously rotate out with each new base set.
Nothing in what a base set is trying to do means that it can't have reprints...
even though I agree with most of what he saidA couple of things here:
1) There aren't two types of people interested in Pokémon, there's three. Players and Collectors are both really into the cards. The reasons might be different but the devotion is there in both groups.
For example, just as it takes time and dedication to win tournaments, it took time and dedication to create the Catalogue project (yes, shameless plug there!).
So whats the third group? I'll call them the Casuals. These are the kids who drag their mum to buy a pack everytime they visit the supermarket. They are the biggest group in Pokémon, like it or not.
In the end, it doesn't really matter what is in the tins. As long as Pokémon is healthy, you can pretty much guarantee people will buy.
2) DJ's example wasn't misleading at all. Making 2/13 = 15%+ return on your investment is pretty good. In fact, it's exceptionally good. People really should be buying these by the truckload and selling them off (cleverly of course, so as to not depress the market). You'd be turning a pretty profit on these :wink:
Of course, the point isn't that you could get rich by doing this. It's the quite blatantly you are getting free stuff with your boosters. That is always a sweet deal really.
I was all ready for agreeing with you 100% and then I saw this comment about the Core sets.
Base sets do not have to be all reprints. In fact, arbitrarily having this rule meant that for a long time, cards had to be randomly inserted into Magic expansions purely so they could be reprinted in the base sets.
Getting rid of that rule meant that base sets could use cards that it needed rather than making do with what's best.
What type of cards should go into a Base set (this applies to Pokémon too obviously)
- Basic staples of the game. In Pokémon terms, I'm thinking the main trainers that are used (not the overly powerful ones, just the ones which are needed all the time). Things like drawing cards, searching decks, switching Benched Pokémon, some stadiums and healing effects. Doesn't need to be powerful (in fact, its better that they're not), it just needs to be standard thing needed at all times
- Pokémon with standard attacks and powers
- Some flashy Pokémon (at the higher rarities and mostly evolutions). This could be interesting attacks that don't really do much or some powerful attacks
and that's about it really. The sets should also have the latest gimmick (for HS sets the Legend and Prime cards) but these obviously rotate out with each new base set.
Nothing in what a base set is trying to do means that it can't have reprints...
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Sabett
Active Member
You still save more money by buying a box, that was my point, that he told that example without mentioning the money you save by buying boxes, making it seem like tins are the cheapest methods of obtaining boosters.
nnaann
New Member
OK Thanks for letting me know :thumb:
bullados
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How many casuals have the money to buy a box? Heck, how many of them even know that an online market exists for this game?
Tins are an impressive value for department store shoppers. The kiddies who always ask for one thing from their parents whenever they go to the store. Show them that you're paying (based on the prices I see at WalMart) about $2 less for the Tin than you would for the 4 packs separately, and both the parents AND the kids are all in on that! Plus, the nice little collectible tin and the two pretty promo cards.
Like it or not, Sabett, there are different markets out there than just competitive players. This is one instance where the casual collector (or as M45 so eloquently puts it, piglet) benefits from the mass marketing.
Box of Fail
New Member
I absolutely don't get this at all. Why does everyone seem to almost get ANGRY at those who incessantly complain no matter what POP does for us? I certainly am one of the worst offenders, and I don't see why it is a problem to someone not even affiliated with POP that I am complaining.
Let's be honest here. POP is not packaging tins out of the goodness of their hearts. Tins provide an excellent medium through which POP can do several things to its advantage:
1. Market old, overstock packs which would otherwise fetch little to nothing (especially since players are not really interested in rotated sets, and with the older legal ones, most players will already have enough of all the playable cards)
2. Sell loose packs at a faster rate, when the educated player will very rarely buy packs individually
3. Attract collectors (and sometimes players in the case of Garchomp X) who want the promo card, although they have no use for the packs
Sure, at retail value, the tins are a great deal, but they are only actually a good deal when the customer has need of the packs; after all, you'd be hard-pressed to sell some of those packs for anywhere near retail price. Low demand = low prices. To say Pokémon is giving us anything for free is silly.
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