Thanks, RA. I’m sure you’d make a great moderator.
I’m glad there are so many people posting here. Good to get an amalgam of opinions together and consider one’s position on the issue. You know what they say: the more people you have solving a math problem, the more likely you are to get the right answer. I think other things work this way too.
Bottom line: For those of you asking for a bright line rule to see how far you can go to push that envelope w/o getting a penalty....you will not get one here or anywhere. I think 'Pop may have stated this also somewhere (maybe not in this thread).
Here it is
http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1347949&postcount=150
To quote myself: there was a thread in another forum in which a League Leader asked for something she could point to, in regard about what kind of behavior for players is acceptable or unacceptable, and I said, “This is one of those subjective areas you just gotta use your gut. There don't seem to be any rigid standards, only guidelines. Obviously, there are so many vagaries and subtle variations in human behavior that you couldn't just throw a bunch of actions in one pile and choose a bunch of other behaviors and classify them as good or bad.”
Body language can certainly garner a penalty. Anyone argue with the fact that giving your oppo the "your #1" salute with the middle finger isn't an unsporting ACT? That is the epitome of "body language" LOL!
:lol:
If you honestly cannot understand the reasoning behind the opinion that intimidation is wrong in general and the example DarthPika is wrong in specific, then please explain what part you have difficulty with. Ask questions. Help advance the discussion. I know that I, for one, would be glad to have an open, honest discussion about this topic.
Let me make it clear that I’m certainly not
in favor of intimidation. I am not pro-deception either.
I guess what I’m having a problem with is the difference between actions that should be penalized and actions that shouldn’t.
Obviously, in interactions between humans, there are so many things out there that are subjective. So many vagaries and subtleties. When does fun end and intimidation begin?
When dealing with rude behavior of players (something that I occasionally do at league), I can’t help but feel a little under pressure- “When am I to intervene. When am I not to intervene? Is what that guy over there did/said OK? Was there any malicious intent?”
“That guy over there raised one card in his hand higher than the others? Is that bad? When does it become bad? Is it okay right now? Is it at the point that he starts waving that card, it becomes bad? How is he waving it? Is the way he waving it malicious? Is he trying to intimidate the opponent or just influence his actions? Is this just part of the player’s habit? How is he waving it? Is it a good wave or a bad wave? If the opponent isn’t offended, is that okay? Is the opponent offended and just not showing it? Certainly someone can feel something (like being intimidated/offended by an opponent) and not show it or say anything about it.” These are the thoughts that come to me.
While the “waving the card that might be Power Spray” scenario doesn’t sound so bad, I have never witnessed such scenarios myself. I guess I’d have to see it to decide whether or not it was intimidation. What exactly this looks and sounds like is obviously difficult to communicate on an internet forum.
I don't think anyone's going to try enforcing intimidation or dubious action rules on such small actions [smile, or frown, or sigh]. Even if they are intended to be malicious, it'd be impossible to prove (without something more obvious.)
That’s my problem. Intimidation being difficult to prove. It would be so subjective to say something is intimidation and something else isn’t. One judge with a good conscience may honestly say it is and another could say it isn’t.
As a side-note: The example that DarthPika provided (with the Power Spray) is a very good case-study, showing a borderline example where we can discuss intent vs action. Kudos to DarthPika for being willing and thoughtful enough to provide the example.
Yeah, it’s given us a lot to talk about.
Deceptive behaviour/intimidation sounds like one of the more difficult situations to deal with or talk about, IMO. I guess, I as a judge, would have to wait and see, see it for myself in real life and decide what to do from there. Remember that US federal judge that said, “I don't know what obscenity is, but I’ll know obscenity when I see it.”?
@DarthPika: I would love for you, next time we meet, to act out your waving of the Power Spray so I can see what it looks like. I extend this to those who have witnessed him do it as well.
ShadowCard said:
now, now, ninetales, I think you're being unreasonable. This is PokeGym: you should have expected to get condescended when you made the post :wink:
:frown:
You made my day, Tim.
Since it appears (to you, I haven't followed yours and ninetales' exchanges) that he is always approaching you, perhaps there is something about your opinion that he values. So, when you say something he thinks may or may not be good, his natural response, because he values your opinion, is to test it in order to see how your thoughts work and where he can apply them.
Thanks.
Also, what about less specific indications? In my previous example, the player would obviously be acting as if they had a PokeTurn. What about saying "darn, it's prized" during a deck search?
Great example. Those words come out of player's mouths
a lot.
Shen said:
One can argue so many different motives behind waving a card, I just don't think it's an issue that can really be enforced. It can be no more than a reminder as well. What if that card really IS a power spray? Is that still frowned upon? There's just so many different variations in the issue, I can't see it being regulated.
Good point. What if the person has different mannerisms and thought processes and waving the card is just what does when he prepares to use it? If the card really is power spray, he may change his mind and decide to save it for later.
I called you out for condoning bullying. Is that dumbed down enough?
Bullying? I remember having to deal with bullies at school when I was in elementary/middle school. My gosh, if waving a card in front of me was the worst thing they did, that would have been great.:smile:
Ninetales: your subsequent post looked like you have taken on the role of a Troll. There was little arguement from yourself
Really? I think you should
read my original post. I think I said a lot of substantive stuff in there.
Anyone who is in the pro-deception camp who is now trying to suggest that the rest of us are somehow against smiling and enjoying the play has already lost the arguement. Why? Becuase that has to be the weakest arguement possible. The pro-deception camp can't just throw a hissy fit and accuse us of being kill-joys because we won't allow intimidation, bullying, and deception. The moment that you do that you are no longer reasoning, all arguement and the possibility of changing your minds has gone.
I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure that I am not using any strawmans (I hate it when people put words in my mouth, so I'd like to avoid doing that too). What I, along with some other people on this thread, was doing, was posting extreme examples to test the boundaries of someone else's opinion on the issue. I want to see how firm their position is. Can it stand the test?
Sometimes when
I state an opinion on something, people will come up with one-in-a-million "lifeboat situations" to test
my logic. Naturally, I've learned to provide people extreme examples to test
their opinions.