Tricky vs. Deceptive Behavior (updated 2/12)

[Rogue Archetype]

RA, that slump is all the opponent needs to build his/her strategy. You are displaying that you are not ready for what the opponent may have. That will change the way the opponent plays, perhaps make him/her a little more bold or let the opponent know he/she still has time to build his/her side of the field.

You think So? I guess that too is situational/conditional.
I use Johnny as an example. NO MATTER WHAT you do, say, or have... HE WILL SET UP. That's his primary interest and objective. You whiffed your set up ? So what. That kid has his own agenda/setup/gameplan, and it's going to hit the table whether you're ready or not. Same goes with Josh. They win because their setup is not concerned with yours. They simply follow through on what THEY need and get it going so they can knock down another one for the Win column.

However, if I lean forward and hold up a single card when they get ready to say "cosmic power" , they may change up and reach for another card to burn out my power spray like a Crobat G for example. So, that's sort of the difference. One action doesn't move them one bid while the other makes them sit back, think, and veer from the initial play; I've influenced their play with an extraneous action.

Whenever I am happy about my cards, my opponent goes to work getting whatever they need to get going.
Whenever I inadvertently 'slump' because my seven are horrible, my opponent goes to work getting whatever they need to get going...

My point was YOU have so many other things to oversee. You're just not going to be THAT active to even try to look for "slumping."

Again... it's all about INTENT here. (i'm beginning to wonder if people know what the word INTENT means... )

If someone is doing something that is not normally done in an effort to push an untruth, that's deception.

 

[Aniodia]

OK, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but since this seems to be the thread where Spirit of the Game rules are being discussed with the most frequency, I figured it wouldn't be a bad place to ask.

Earlier in the thread, there was talk about playing with your hand revealed, and how there is technically no reason to. That reminded me of a person I used to play Magic with back in high school who used to play all his games with his hand face up on the table.

Now I haven't played the game outside of family and friends since... (oh, what was it in english...) Neo Genesis? Yeah, I think it was whatever the WotC set with the first Gold and Silver pokemon was. Anyway, my point is, I'm not too familiar with the Spirit of the Game rules as it applies to tournament level play, but let's say my friend decided to start playing in modified tournaments and such. Would his habit of playing with his hand revealed count against him in any way? Or would attitude have to come in to play here (such as a cocky attitude vs. a confident attitude)?

(Oh, and completely off topic, but M Liesik, would you happen to be Mike Liesik, of Magi-Nation [sorta]fame?)

 

[Jaeger]

If I can offer some thoughts,

Deceptive behavior: Lying plan and simple, and most of the time I consider cheating. My Examples
Yea I'm only weak +30 (really x2)
I've got 5 cards in my hand (really 8)
Man I wish I would have play a copy of Card X: Not exactly cheating but IMO goes beond bluffing.

Bluffing: Involves no action on your part and does not involving lying.
If I say let me think If I want to power spray that, I'm telling my opponent I have a power spray and delaying the game. I even consider holding a card up to much. However if a player 1 says I'm going to use cosmic power and player 2 says thats fine. IMO this is bluffing, player 2 did not lie nor did he delay the game, or did he say he had a card he didn't.

I'm not saying bluffings good or bad. Thats just my disingushing between the 2.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Oh and that tilt (word I can't post here) IMO that is down right cheating and if that is the only way you can win game than get a life.

 

[ShadowCard]

You think So? I guess that too is situational/conditional.
I use Johnny as an example. NO MATTER WHAT you do, say, or have... HE WILL SET UP. That's his primary interest and objective.

Sure, Johnny will get set up (unless you defeat him first :wink. That does not matter. It is how Johnny gets set up. Can he take his time to build his team or will he have to rush to build an offense? Will he need to power up his back-up attacker or can he bank on his main attacker being around for a little while? These are questions that should always be in a player's mind and will influence set up.

Again... it's all about INTENT here. (i'm beginning to wonder if people know what the word INTENT means... )

If someone is doing something that is not normally done in an effort to push an untruth, that's deception.

Let's take a look at this:

If you're trying to contain your excitement by giving a gesture/facial expression opposite to the impression you want to give. That's different.

That's not even deceptive.

I see deceptive intent here.
1) You're excited but you're giving an expression that is not conveying that (so you're frowning/signing instead of smiling/chuckling?) (the action).
2) by doing this, you are actively recognizing that you are giving the opposite display (intent).
3) Why would you want to give an expression opposite of excitment? (establishing motive).

Not to advocate the game be played emotionlessly, but when reactions are shown, people will read them. Where this becomes tricky is back when I said "there is no rule against fooling the opponent as long as you're not lying." We all attempt to read the opponent at one point during a game whether we actively recognize it or not. Can I make an attempt to fool the opponent through a reaction? Perhaps by frowning at the card in my hand when my opponent makes a play, but in reality I have the perfect response for it? Or smiling when my opponent TGWs me when in reality my hand was so good that the TGW is devestating?

I think it will be more benefitical to discuss this in person in order to make clearer the examples. I actually have an excellent example of something that was done when I and a few others were testing decks.

Bluffing: Involves no action on your part and does not involving lying.
If I say let me think If I want to power spray that, I'm telling my opponent I have a power spray and delaying the game. I even consider holding a card up to much. However if a player 1 says I'm going to use cosmic power and player 2 says thats fine. IMO this is bluffing, player 2 did not lie nor did he delay the game, or did he say he had a card he didn't.

Jaeger, that is an example of intimidation. You're not being so specific if you are bluffing. Bluffing usually involves something more vague. You wouldn't be naming cards. Rambo1000's example of "playfully act as though an opponent's move has hindered my set up" is a bluff. It is a display of false weakness.

 

[The Captain]

You think So? I guess that too is situational/conditional.
I use Johnny as an example. NO MATTER WHAT you do, say, or have... HE WILL SET UP. That's his primary interest and objective. You whiffed your set up ? So what. That kid has his own agenda/setup/gameplan, and it's going to hit the table whether you're ready or not. Same goes with Josh. They win because their setup is not concerned with yours. They simply follow through on what THEY need and get it going so they can knock down another one for the Win column.

However, if I lean forward and hold up a single card when they get ready to say "cosmic power" , they may change up and reach for another card to burn out my power spray like a Crobat G for example. So, that's sort of the difference. One action doesn't move them one bid while the other makes them sit back, think, and veer from the initial play; I've influenced their play with an extraneous action.

Whenever I am happy about my cards, my opponent goes to work getting whatever they need to get going.
Whenever I inadvertently 'slump' because my seven are horrible, my opponent goes to work getting whatever they need to get going...

My point was YOU have so many other things to oversee. You're just not going to be THAT active to even try to look for "slumping."

Again... it's all about INTENT here. (i'm beginning to wonder if people know what the word INTENT means... )

If someone is doing something that is not normally done in an effort to push an untruth, that's deception.

its about how you set up thats the question. Heres a situation i was in last format. I was playing gg he was playing mag. Now he had 1 basics and like a mag with two energy and seemed to have a bad hand couldn't get set up. Now i dad a choice i could get T2 galade and knock out thing consecutive turns or gardy and set up better but have a harder time killing his guys. Thinking that he couldn't get a set up i used galade over gardy. Had i tohught he could get good set up i would have gone and played control over aggro. And as it ended up he couldn't get a set up and i won that game.

I understand what you are saying about intent, but in this game it seems very hard to show intent.

 

[Jaeger]

Bluffing: Involves no action on your part and does not involving lying.
If I say let me think If I want to power spray that, I'm telling my opponent I have a power spray and delaying the game. I even consider holding a card up to much. However if a player 1 says I'm going to use cosmic power and player 2 says thats fine. IMO this is bluffing, player 2 did not lie nor did he delay the game, or did he say he had a card he didn't.

If I wasn't clear I was against the first 2 (red) becuase 1 delays the game and 2 lies to the opponent by pretty much saying I have a power spray. The third was just me accnologing the Claydol and saying I wasn't going to stop it. I in no way implied I had a Power Spray.

Jaeger, that is an example of intimidation. You're not being so specific if you are bluffing. Bluffing usually involves something more vague. You wouldn't be naming cards. Rambo1000's example of "playfully act as though an opponent's move has hindered my set up" is a bluff. It is a display of false weakness.

How? I mean this as a serious question. I always considered imidation making an opponent feel uneasy or nervous (tilt). How does me saying "thats fine" indimating?

I'm not saying bluffing is right or wrong. Like I said I'm just disgusing between the 2. Second I agree with the Captain. Bluffing if done without lying is very hard to prove. Things such as oh darn its prized, whats prized? A fire energy? maybe you don't consider it a disappointment but he does. The biggest problem I see is trying to police this bluffing. In some cases its very black and white (lieing/Cheating) but in the cases of oh darn, a quick smile, or even wish I hadn't drawen that. Since these are all personal opinions.

 

[DarthPika]

^ Pop actually just said that bluffing like that is fine. Just don't actually lie about stuff and your good.

 

[PokePop]

OK, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but since this seems to be the thread where Spirit of the Game rules are being discussed with the most frequency, I figured it wouldn't be a bad place to ask.

Earlier in the thread, there was talk about playing with your hand revealed, and how there is technically no reason to. That reminded me of a person I used to play Magic with back in high school who used to play all his games with his hand face up on the table.

Now I haven't played the game outside of family and friends since... (oh, what was it in english...) Neo Genesis? Yeah, I think it was whatever the WotC set with the first Gold and Silver pokemon was. Anyway, my point is, I'm not too familiar with the Spirit of the Game rules as it applies to tournament level play, but let's say my friend decided to start playing in modified tournaments and such. Would his habit of playing with his hand revealed count against him in any way? Or would attitude have to come in to play here (such as a cocky attitude vs. a confident attitude)?

(Oh, and completely off topic, but M Liesik, would you happen to be Mike Liesik, of Magi-Nation [sorta]fame?)

It may or may not be allowed, depending on the judge.
Is there a reason for it it? If he's doing it because of issues with holding his hand, I might allow it.

I'd have no problem with it at league.


And yes, he is that Mike Liesik.

 

[ShadowCard]

How? I mean this as a serious question. I always considered imidation making an opponent feel uneasy or nervous (tilt). How does me saying "thats fine" indimating?

It's not. I could not tell that your 3 examples are actually seperate. I thought they were all one example. The intimidation is when you tell your opponent "I have the Power Spray" in advance of the power declaration. "That's fine" is not intimidation.

The biggest problem I see is trying to police this bluffing. In some cases its very black and white (lieing/Cheating) but in the cases of oh darn, a quick smile, or even wish I hadn't drawen that. Since these are all personal opinions.

That is true about the personal opinion. You could draw a very good card and give a frown. Anyone looking at your hand may not understand that despite being a great card, it has come up at an inopportune time.

 

[ninetales1234]

Deceptive behavior: Lying plan and simple, and most of the time I consider cheating. My Examples
Yea I'm only weak +30 (really x2)
I've got 5 cards in my hand (really 8)

That's public information. If that happened, I would suspect that it was unintentional. However, if someone does that at any of my events, and I'm pretty sure it was malcious, someone's getting a lecture about public information (and a few other fun things:biggrin from me, that's for sure.

Ninetales even if you are not using straw men, which by the way I did not accuse you of. You are ignoring other's arguement.

I'm pretty sure I'm not ignoring anybody. If it appears that way, my apoligies. It was certainly not intentional.

I have tried to address the opposition's concerns. However, if I missed any of them, if there's anything I appear to have looked over, please bring it to my attention.

I believe that you are wrong to use such language as an arguement in favour of your side and am disapointed that you will not admit to the error. I make mistakes all the time but I'm not so proud that I can't admit them.

In the post I made where I said your SUBSEQUENT posts look like you have taken on the role of a Troll you attempt to misdirect back to an earlier post. This is classic Troll behaviour.

Yes, you did say "subsequent". I must have looked over that. Thanx for catching my mistake.

I think THAT's what is on the "Pro" side's minds.

If DarthPika held up that card against a perfect stranger and that person called over a judge, he'd be penalized for deceptive actions not fitting within the boundaries of SOTG.

If Darth and I were having fun and doing this to each other. Although not encouraged, but we're "allowing" it and mutually participating, neither is bothered, and both are mutually cool with the game's outcome, then... no harm done. No need for a ruling. We're just playing.

I think this is a happy middle ground.

Again... it's all about INTENT here. (i'm beginning to wonder if people know what the word INTENT means... )

:lol:

A warning to all, I may or may not be playing devil's advocate in this post.

I called you out for condoning bullying. You even said that you would feel intimidated and used the very language that IS used to excuse bullying.

I guess we're not agreeing on what bullying is. Sometimes it's helpful to whip out a dictionary in these situations, so here goes: "the process of intimidating or mistreating somebody weaker or in a more vulnerable situation".
I tend to think that you shouldn't put yourself in in a more vulnerable situation. If someone says "darn it, my Baltoy's prized" or waves a card, ignore it. By submitting to bluffing, by giving your opponent credence, you've put yourself in a situation where he'll want to bluff. Don't give him the pleasure. Don't allow yourself to be in a more vulnerable situation.

I don't like bullying (in real life and Pokémon), so I don't empower them.

I use Johnny as an example. NO MATTER WHAT you do, say, or have... HE WILL SET UP. That's his primary interest and objective. You whiffed your set up ? So what. That kid has his own agenda/setup/gameplan, and it's going to hit the table whether you're ready or not. Same goes with Josh. They win because their setup is not concerned with yours. They simply follow through on what THEY need and get it going so they can knock down another one for the Win column.

This is one of the reasons I'm not too concerned with bluffing. If you know what you're doing, you're going to be focused on the game. You're not gonna let that extraneous stuff get in your way.

If the opponent wants to do it, let 'em. You're just gonna do what you set out to do and win the game. If he wants to look stupid by saying stuff out loud and waving cards in the air, it's not gonna hurt you. You got real talent and you can see through such harebrainedness.

I think it's really important to point out an obvious truth. If you have Card X in your hand, there's no reason to tell your opponent. If Card X is in your prizes, there's no reason to tell your opponent (it's private information). So, of course, if somebody says something out loud like that, you should be able to tell he's bluffing right away.
He may be telling the truth, but if he is, it's just part of his silly strategy.
I, as a player, have better things to do than guess if he's pullin' my leg.

I know that if I was in a match, and a player waved a card that may or may not be a Power Spray and I begged him to stop and then called a judge because I was so offended- and then I told my friends and family this story after it was over, they'd tell me to not be such a coward. They'd tell me to grow some "guts". Dealin' with people who don't act exactly the way you want them to is part of life.

 

[ShadowCard]

I don't know, ninetales. If someone says he/she has 5 cards in hand but actually has 8, I'll be leaning more towards the game loss side of the penalty guidelines.

 

[ninetales1234]

I don't know, ninetales. If someone says he/she has 5 cards in hand but actually has 8, I'll be leaning more towards the game loss side of the penalty guidelines.

Yes. Game Loss. That's what I meant by "and a few other fun things". Odd sentence structure, I know.