What do you expect the Pokémon TCG to give you?

[DarkMagnus]

um if pop was all about money then they would charge for there events, i think that in itself shows its not ALL about the money and yes while we aren't all dumb enough to think that a company is out to make money this shows that they dont want just money

 

[Jaeger]

I don't really have much to say in this thread, but I'm in 100% of revealing deck lists of major tournament winners, and I think deck lists should be included in reports as well. Great way to share creativity throughout the game, I feel.

Share their Creativity? Do that and watch creativity fly right out the window (like yugioh for a majority of it). This is the closest we have ever had for list being revealed and look what has happened. I've seen at least half a dozen noobs copy lists card for card and post them in the deck help section for crying out loud.

 

[baby mario]

I agree, that is EXACTLY what YGO is like (I used to play it).

1. They publish the top 16 decks of an SJC (or whatever the big tourneys are now)
2. 90% of competitive players copy one of those decks card-for-card (why not? that is what wins)
3. 5% of players change 2 or 3 cards to try and improve their chances in a mirror match
4. 5% of players try and metagame

If anyone thinks that publishing Pokemon lists will inspire people to be more creative, they are sadly wrong. All you will get is a lot of bad players with great netdecks showing up at every tourney. If you don't believe me, wait and see how many people turn up at BRs with Beedrill/Luxray.

 

[kwisdumb]

Valid points. I just believe in sharing that kind of information amongst the community ("open source decks" as someone once called it). I could be completely wrong though, and it's great to see discussions on the topic, even if it is in disagreement of my post.

 

[baby mario]

To be fair, people do share the main Pokemon of winning decks, and it gets posted in the 'What Won . . . ?' threads. I think just saying 'Luxray/infernape' or 'Palkia/Mesprit' (no stupid nicknames though) is fair enough as it keep the details of the build secret, but gives people enough info about what the strongest decks are. Then they can go and try and build those decks for themselves, test them out and try and come up with a decent list.

Deckbuilding is a legit skill and a big part of this game, and good deckbuilders SHOULD have an advantage over less skilled deckbuilders. Otherwise, you might as well just give everyone the same theme deck and let them play it out.

 

[DarkMagnus]

th problem is those list still get circulated in the top 5% that are already winning so that is really done is deny lower end players from learning proper deck structure and inventive techs so in actuallity it hurts the community in that way instead of the " omg your a noob you net decked so and so's list". beliving it makes the enviroment stale is just an excuse to keep the elite elites

 

[Varna]

I agree, that is EXACTLY what YGO is like (I used to play it).

1. They publish the top 16 decks of an SJC (or whatever the big tourneys are now)
2. 90% of competitive players copy one of those decks card-for-card (why not? that is what wins)
3. 5% of players change 2 or 3 cards to try and improve their chances in a mirror match
4. 5% of players try and metagame

If anyone thinks that publishing Pokemon lists will inspire people to be more creative, they are sadly wrong. All you will get is a lot of bad players with great netdecks showing up at every tourney. If you don't believe me, wait and see how many people turn up at BRs with Beedrill/Luxray.

The interesting thing is that by publishing the top decks, players of "lesser calibur" actually get to see how a good deck is built. Yes, they may start out by netdecking them card-for-card, but after they've seen a few good decks, they start to learn how to make changes or build their own. I have seen two real life examples of this trend. By not publishing the decks, you're limiting that information to the people that were A: at the event, or B: friends with people at the event. That generally only benefits the top players, and doesn't help the new blood of the game at all.

I understand that you feel a great deckbuilder is entitled to an advantage, but if they're that great, can't they build another deck to "counter" the metagame that their published decklist has influenced? That is part of the skill. The game should not be "I built my end-all super deck, because I am an excellent deck builder, and that is all I should ever need for the season". Fortunately, as far as I can tell, it hasn't been like that even while we have had "hidden" decklists, so I don't see how revealing them will hurt anything.

 

[xcfrisco]

Share their Creativity? Do that and watch creativity fly right out the window (like yugioh for a majority of it).

Luckily Pokemon has a really good metagame with like 5 tourney-capable decks and 5 other viable but "probably" not as good decks. There's PLENTY of room for creativity in the current metagame. I don't see the reason to be ultra-secretive about your decks as its pretty futile to keep them secret for long. Sure, if you have a really nice innovative idea for the next tourney coming up, there's no one forcing you to post your deck and it'll probably be in your benefit to be a little secretive.

But refusing to post your list after you've won said tourney cause you want to keep your deck a secret for the next major tourney that 3 months away? That's really lame. Its my belief that seclusiveness only hurts metagames, it doesn't make anyone get better.


People who netdeck card for card usually suck too. What's the issue/what's there too worry about?

 

[Yoshi-]

Luckily Pokemon has a really good metagame with like 5 tourney-capable decks and 5 other viable but "probably" not as good decks. There's PLENTY of room for creativity in the current metagame. I don't see the reason to be ultra-secretive about your decks as its pretty futile to keep them secret for long. Sure, if you have a really nice innovative idea for the next tourney coming up, there's no one forcing you to post your deck and it'll probably be in your benefit to be a little secretive.

But refusing to post your list after you've won said tourney cause you want to keep your deck a secret for the next major tourney that 3 months away? That's really lame. Its my belief that seclusiveness only hurts metagames, it doesn't make anyone get better.


People who netdeck card for card usually suck too. What's the issue/what's there too worry about?

Why should anyone give out his own work for free? I just dont get it, its my deck and my list, if anyone wants to know it he can ask me and I might give him something, or maybe not, thats my decision :/

And people who netdeck dont always suck, thats stupid, and since this game is gettign more and more luck based anyway I'd be deply worried if I had to play against my own netdecked list :/

 

[Varna]

Why should anyone give out his own work for free? I just dont get it, its my deck and my list, if anyone wants to know it he can ask me and I might give him something, or maybe not, thats my decision :/

And people who netdeck dont always suck, thats stupid, and since this game is gettign more and more luck based anyway I'd be deply worried if I had to play against my own netdecked list :/

You aren't giving it out for free. You've just won a tournament with it. That's your reward.

 

[Yoshi-]

My reward is that my deck list gets published and I can start from the beginning? Great reward, prices get better and better

 

[xcfrisco]

Why should anyone give out his own work for free? I just dont get it, its my deck and my list, if anyone wants to know it he can ask me and I might give him something, or maybe not, thats my decision :/

And people who netdeck dont always suck, thats stupid, and since this game is gettign more and more luck based anyway I'd be deply worried if I had to play against my own netdecked list :/

I'll answer your question with another question. How does the metagame get any better if all the best players keep all their top tier strategies to themselves? All your doing is promoting the culture of two completely different metagames.

Metagame 1 has all the top tier players who are super exclusive but is a good metagame cause all the best strategies are being played. Metagame 2 has a bunch of scrubs/good players not included in Metagame 2 who can't/aren't getting any better because Metagame 1 has all the best info but is unwilling to share it.

The crappy part about two different metagames is that tourney officials and organizers don't give a monkey's uncle/can't do anything about it and everyone has to play each other even though metagame 1 players have a huge advantage. Metagame 1 people don't care about this and have a huge riot from winning tourneys where they play scrubs for the first 8 rouns and only have to play metagme 1 players in the final. Winning is cool, so Metagame 1 players keep doing this ad naseum and the metagame is laergely garbage for everyone except for Metagame 1. Even then its not that good for Metagame 1 players cause they're just constantly playing scrubs in tournies until they finally have to play their friends.

If everyone was super-inclusive this is exactly what would happen. I don't know about you Yoshi, but I hate just playing scrubs or people who just don't know. I challenge people all the time to beat with my own deck and I'll use their with some slight tweaks. Its always fun trying to see who truly is the better player

 

[baby mario]

I think the secrecy thing is a bit of a myth also.

The 1st and 2nd place lists at Worlds for Masters are right here on this board.

I have found that if you ask good players for help (NOT just ask for their lists), they will are always willing to share ideas and playtest with you. I met a lot of great players at Worlds and not one was secretive or unhelpful. They were all friendly and happy to talk about the game.

 

[xcfrisco]

I think the secrecy thing is a bit of a myth also.

The 1st and 2nd place lists at Worlds for Masters are right here on this board.

I have found that if you ask good players for help (NOT just ask for their lists), they will are always willing to share ideas and playtest with you. I met a lot of great players at Worlds and not one was secretive or unhelpful. They were all friendly and happy to talk about the game.

I agree that most people here on the gym are pretty open and extremely nice when it comes to sharing their decks and experiences. My argument was mainly for those who think that keeping a deck idea or strategy completely to themselves to get out of that terrible habit. Especially for those who win big tournies/win on a regular basis.

 

[Yoshi-]

I'll answer your question with another question. How does the metagame get any better if all the best players keep all their top tier strategies to themselves? All your doing is promoting the culture of two completely different metagames.

And how is that MY problem if other people arent capable of breaking the metagame? If I have a list that does that, this means its possible, if people arent capable to do it its not my problem :/

Metagame 1 has all the top tier players who are super exclusive but is a good metagame cause all the best strategies are being played. Metagame 2 has a bunch of scrubs/good players not included in Metagame 2 who can't/aren't getting any better because Metagame 1 has all the best info but is unwilling to share it.

So what? If I have a deck no one is able to beat that probably means I AM better then other players and I SHOULD win all the time.

The crappy part about two different metagames is that tourney officials and organizers don't give a monkey's uncle/can't do anything about it and everyone has to play each other even though metagame 1 players have a huge advantage.

Socialism doesnt work if there are prices to win, sorry :/ And why would anyone go through the trouble of testing a deck, breaking the metagame which is a LOT of work just to post his list on a plate for everyone else who is lazy?

Metagame 1 people don't care about this and have a huge riot from winning tourneys where they play scrubs for the first 8 rouns and only have to play metagme 1 players in the final. Winning is cool, so Metagame 1 players keep doing this ad naseum and the metagame is laergely garbage for everyone except for Metagame 1.

And the player is to blame because he is better then anyone else?

Even then its not that good for Metagame 1 players cause they're just constantly playing scrubs in tournies until they finally have to play their friends.

You test in testgames, you play tournaments to win, if I just get freewins all the time I'm happy. If I want a challenge that badly I can challenge my friends or somethign

If everyone was super-inclusive this is exactly what would happen. I don't know about you Yoshi, but I hate just playing scrubs or people who just don't know. I challenge people all the time to beat with my own deck and I'll use their with some slight tweaks. Its always fun trying to see who truly is the better player

The better player is the player that builds the deck that wins.
And its not liek the generall deck istn out there anyway after the tournament, but posting my list piece for piece with all tech lines, and everything? Fine tweeking the list is what is the most work, and I'd never just serve someone my own work like that...

^ After worlds it doesnt matter, I posted my iPlox list which I worked very hard on and I tested a lot after citys were over for me, at that point I dont mind because it wont be bad for ME anymore.

 

[DarkMagnus]

right but honestly yoshi and others against sharing list you are willing to tell me that EVERY deck you've every played was a list of your own making and you've NEVER used a list that some one has said omg here try this its so good? honestly you limit the metagame and created a stale enviroment doing such, Mtg ( sense we like showing what other games do so much) has been publishing lists for years and they haven't caused a Stagnant metagame because of it. when it comes down to it it Seams very lack of SoTG imo to not share lists

 

[xcfrisco]

The better player is the player that builds the deck that wins.

That's where we differ in our philospohy. The REAL better player is the one who can win under any condition. If we played an exact mirror with a decklist that you've created aand that I have never seen in my life and I beat you 10 straight games would that not make me the better player?

Lol, and if pokemon is all about winning prizes for you, there are much easier metagames out there with much better prizes. If all you cared about was free wins, would you just play 5 year-olds all the time in tournies if given the option? I find your stance a tad hypocritical considering we have all been made better players by just simply knowing about other people's lists.

 

[baby mario]

That's where we differ in our philospohy. The REAL better player is the one who can win under any condition. If we played an exact mirror with a decklist that you've created aand that I have never seen in my life and I beat you 10 straight games would that not make me the better player?

Yes, it would make you the better player, but playing skill is only a part of Pokemon. Deckbuilding, testing, and working out out to tech for the metagame are all part of it too, and those skills should be rewarded in tournament play.

Like I said before, if it was just about who was the better player, then why bother with deckbuilding at all? Why not just make everyone play with the same theme deck?

 

[Yoshi-]

That's where we differ in our philospohy. The REAL better player is the one who can win under any condition. If we played an exact mirror with a decklist that you've created aand that I have never seen in my life and I beat you 10 straight games would that not make me the better player?

Lol, and if pokemon is all about winning prizes for you, there are much easier metagames out there with much better prizes. If all you cared about was free wins, would you just play 5 year-olds all the time in tournies if given the option? I find your stance a tad hypocritical considering we have all been made better players by just simply knowing about other people's lists.

Its a difference if you leak an idea "luxape" or if you leak a list.
If you win 10 games straight it doesnt say anything sicne for me deckbuilding is part of being a player and you didnt show anything about if you can build decks.

The thing is the game gets more&more random, so if you have my list you'll probably beat me 4 out of 10 games just because you got the better draw. And it would annoy me to no end that I lost to someone using MY deck because he had the better draw. Because thats what these kind of mirrors come down to.

Pokemon isnt just about winning prizes, its about winning prices and showing my "skill" while playing an enjoyable game (in contrast to ygo...), improving my skill etc.

But if I have an advantage because I tested more I want to keep it. You dont tell your oppinent if he made a misplay either, right :/ ?

 

[xcfrisco]

But if I have an advantage because I tested more I want to keep it. You dont tell your oppinent if he made a misplay either, right :/ ?

lol, to prevent us from going further off-topic cause I think this debate deserves its own thread, I'll just say one last thing.

Yes, I would tell that player about his misplay, cause I would want everyone I play to get better. But, only after his turn was over