Hi, the reason I think Landorus is looking pretty useless is because (1) Landorus is only a counter to Zekeels, Rayeels and Darkrai variants, which people are playing less and less of because everyone wants to play Keldeo more because it instantly wins against Landorus, (2) As explained Keldeo is becoming more popular and easily wins against Landorus, (3) These days a simple Eviolite causes Landorus to only do 10 damage a turn, forcing it if it can use it's other attack to use it, (4) Landorus's second attack doesn't knock out any Ex, only reducing them to 20-30HP with which they can still attack, taking 2 prizes from Landorus, (5) Landorus is usually used with Mewtwo Ex but again Mewtwo is only a counter. If Mewtwo were to knock an Ex out in Keldeo/Blastoise, a Mewtwo would take it's place and could easily be given 2 energy. By the Keldeo/Blastoise's second attack the opponent's Mewtwo would fall. (6) There's a Klinklang coming in Plasma Storm that prevents Exs from attacking other steel types in the deck. Since Mewtwo uses DCE in the deck, the new Cobalion Ex coming out can just use it's first attack to discard DCE along with doing 30 damage and it still can't be attacked be the decks main attackers. (7) When this card comes out the only thing able to attack in a Landorus/Mewtwo deck would be Terrakion. The counter for non-Exs is Cobalion NV. It's second attack does 80 damage and prevents the opponent's Pokemon from attacking. The opponent is then forced to switch or let Terrakion be knocked out next turn but still won't be able to knock out the Cobalion unless it has taken 30 damage, which Landorus can not do thanks to Klinklang. In summary, I don't think Landorus will be around for much longer.
Who thinks that Landorus looking pretty useless?
- Thread starter rcxd999
- Start date
Kayle
Active Member
I think your thoughts are interesting and you've got some good points, but I disagree that Landorus is "useless". It's still got a pretty solid place in the current metagame and I don't immediately believe it will just disappear.
A card doesn't have to counter another card to be good.
In a format where most everything has 180 or less HP, how isn't 30+30 snipe for one energy building into 150 for 3 energy just immediately awesome?
It's a strong card on that basis alone. Its nice typing is just a bonus.
A deck does not consist of one card. "Keldeo" isn't a deck. Neither, more importantly, is "Landorus". Landorus is paired with many things right now and it's up to the player to pair it with something that will handle Landorus' weaknesses in the metagame. There are many ways to deal with Keldeo.
See above comment about being paired with something else. You can also just play Tool Scrapper. There's nothing wrong with that card.
Landorus doesn't just get auto-knocked out by anything either. Land's Judgment is best used alongside Hammerhead as described above, or alongside other attackers such as Darkrai (who sets up the 30 damage that Landorus loves) or Mewtwo that can help it finish a kill. Hammerhead is actually a great attack even factoring in Eviolite's existence.
Having played this matchup quite a bit myself you have to recognize that Landorus/mewtwo has the advantage of consistency, where Blastoise/Keldeo needs to draw into the correct combination of cards to pull this off. You're right - it's not a surefire counter and that's why landorus/mewtwo is declining - but it DOES work effectively enough that you can expect a game out of it. The better you build for mewtwo wars, the better you'll fare against Blastoise/Keldeo.
I'm not really one for theorymon about new sets. We do still have Regionals to worry about, y'know.
The format will probably change quite a bit if Klinklang turns out to be good... which it may well not. Don't assume that, if Klinklang does turn out to be good, people will just keep playing the same list of Landorus/Mewtwo; basic-centric decks are very adaptable and there are many strong attackers that can penetrate Klinklang's ability, not just Terrakion. Tornadus comes to mind, for example - being a Pokemon capable of using Mewtwo's DCEs, demolishing Klinks and Klangs to prevent evolution, and cycling energy around to build for Lands' Judgments or X Balls later in the game.
A card doesn't have to counter another card to be good.
In a format where most everything has 180 or less HP, how isn't 30+30 snipe for one energy building into 150 for 3 energy just immediately awesome?
It's a strong card on that basis alone. Its nice typing is just a bonus.
A deck does not consist of one card. "Keldeo" isn't a deck. Neither, more importantly, is "Landorus". Landorus is paired with many things right now and it's up to the player to pair it with something that will handle Landorus' weaknesses in the metagame. There are many ways to deal with Keldeo.
See above comment about being paired with something else. You can also just play Tool Scrapper. There's nothing wrong with that card.
Landorus doesn't just get auto-knocked out by anything either. Land's Judgment is best used alongside Hammerhead as described above, or alongside other attackers such as Darkrai (who sets up the 30 damage that Landorus loves) or Mewtwo that can help it finish a kill. Hammerhead is actually a great attack even factoring in Eviolite's existence.
Having played this matchup quite a bit myself you have to recognize that Landorus/mewtwo has the advantage of consistency, where Blastoise/Keldeo needs to draw into the correct combination of cards to pull this off. You're right - it's not a surefire counter and that's why landorus/mewtwo is declining - but it DOES work effectively enough that you can expect a game out of it. The better you build for mewtwo wars, the better you'll fare against Blastoise/Keldeo.
I'm not really one for theorymon about new sets. We do still have Regionals to worry about, y'know.
The format will probably change quite a bit if Klinklang turns out to be good... which it may well not. Don't assume that, if Klinklang does turn out to be good, people will just keep playing the same list of Landorus/Mewtwo; basic-centric decks are very adaptable and there are many strong attackers that can penetrate Klinklang's ability, not just Terrakion. Tornadus comes to mind, for example - being a Pokemon capable of using Mewtwo's DCEs, demolishing Klinks and Klangs to prevent evolution, and cycling energy around to build for Lands' Judgments or X Balls later in the game.
Landorus is a solid attacker, a bit overrated, but thats just what he is. Definitely not useless, against certain decks he is (he does nothing against my HoOh deck) but I still think its better than alot of other cards. It kind of reminds me of Hitmonchan in a way. Its just a solid attacker, doesnt really have much depth or power to it, a solid starting play, can be effective middle to late game. I wouldnt base a deck around it or play it in too many copies, but against most non Blastoise based decks its a solid card.
Kayle, (1) you did the opposite to what I meant. What I meant was Landorus is ONLY a counter not a asset like Keldeo or Darkrai which benefit from the deck and the deck benefits from them. (2)Keldeo like Landorus, is paired with quite a few decks because of it's ability and unlike Landorus, can attack for 3 of any energy and does 100 damage to Landorus but most famous for having Keldeo is its own deck, Keldeo/Blastoise with which it is incredibly easy to get turn 2 Blastoise and Keldeo which is Landorus's nightmare. (3) OK maybe I was wrong about Eviolite. (4)You were wrong about Landorus not being auto-knocked out by anything. Keldeo auto-knocks out Landorus when in Keldeo/Blastoise. By turn 2 in battling a Keldeo/Blastoise deck, Landorus becomes no longer play able unless there are no Keldeo on the field. (5) Unfortunely you are wrong as Keldeo/Blastoise is much more consistent. I've played both Mewtwo/Landorus and Keldeo/Blastoise and I've found that Keldeo/Blastoise is much more consistent and is almost auto-win against it.
(6) Trust me Plasma Klinklang is much more than a theorymon. It's ability makes 2/3 of the deck completely useless and again Terrakion is the only chance the deck ever has. Why would you use Tornadus instead of Terrakion? (1) Tornadus does 10 less damage. (2) Tornadus has to move energy, probably to a unusable Ex. I completely agree with you Lugia.
(6) Trust me Plasma Klinklang is much more than a theorymon. It's ability makes 2/3 of the deck completely useless and again Terrakion is the only chance the deck ever has. Why would you use Tornadus instead of Terrakion? (1) Tornadus does 10 less damage. (2) Tornadus has to move energy, probably to a unusable Ex. I completely agree with you Lugia.
Im not sure why you keep thinking that Klinglang from Plasma is going to be anything that amazing. Yes it has a solid ability that hurts a lot of decks, but its overall a slow deck with no energy acceleration and not that many powerful attackers. Ironically you say Landorus is almost useless, but most of the attackers like Cobalin in the Klinglang deck are basically the same thing, if not worse since they deal less damage and have no advantage over any current deck. The EX protection is all that they got which means the deck is a bunch of Silgiphs with more HP.
Blastoise decks are very popular, but so are Darkrai and Eel decks are still very popular. It all depends on your meta. I never liked Landorus but I wouldnt call him useless either. Solid attackers are never that bad, but they dont have much depth either. They are just very straight forward cards, their only purpose is to attack and nothing more.
Lugia, you completely wrong about the attackers in Plasma Klinklang being useless. Cobalion Ex has the advantage of being able to discard Special Energy like Plasma Energy which will become incredibly important when Plasma Energy comes out and another attack that does 100 damage and isn't affected by Eviolite, Rescue Scarf and the steel resistance on electric types. Cobalion NVI first attack does pretty well for just 2 energy and it's second attack does 80 damage while preventing the defending Pokemon from attacking meaning non-Ex Pokemon must retreat or be knocked out on the next turn. Registeel which can be used as a tech does some serious bench damage. In summary, this deck is far from useless and are MUCH better than Sigilyph. As explained on different sites by different people, Eels are dropping in popularity incredibly fast. Sure Darkrai pretty popular but nowhere near as popular Keldeo/Blastoise and it's popularity is dropping as well. Ignatious, it IS a GOOD tech but as I explained Rayeels are almost no longer played because they have been reduced from tier 1 to tier 2 thanks to Landorus. Otaku, how are my arguments flawed? I do understand the terminology I'm using and I did mean incredibly easy when it came to how fast Keldeo/Blastoise could set up.
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Why are you taking things out of context? I never said it was useless, what Im saying is that its on the level of Sigliyph. Sigliyph is a pretty decent card, its not bad, but its not amazing either. Once your opponent knows you have it, you change the way you play around it. We have Pokemon Catcher, all you have to do is get out the Klinglang and knock it out.
Plus the deck is very slow. It doesnt have any quick ways of busting out energy, meaning that you need to draw incredibly well to do anything. The deck cant capitalize off Junipers and N's that well. You can only drop 1 energy per turn, you need time to get out Klinglang, the rest of the evolution line is very weak. Anyone thats a decent player doesnt stack their decks with just EX's, you play a few non EX's for things like that and Sigliyph. If I see your playing Klinglang, Ill charge up a non EX and proceed to knock you out, your deck will be too slow to counter attack for the most part unless you draw very well and can stall me out or I could get out an early EX and just kill your line off before you get out Klinglang.
And yes Cobalion discards a Special Energy, but what of it? Darkrai and Blastoise decks dont rely on DCE, my HoOh deck doesnt rely on DCE, DCE is pretty powerful and can end games but in no way is it game over if your removing it.
Darkrai and Eel decks are still very popular. They arent going away, and theres no reason why they would. Mewtwo EX already destroys Eel decks 1st turn, I dont see how Landorous is any different. Not every match up will you see Landorous.
Ignatious
New Member
If Landorus is useless, how does it drop an extremely powerful deck down to a meager tier 2?
You answered your own question. Landorus makes Rayeels a much riskier play. It gives Rayeels the bad match up it didn't have before.
Politoed666
New Member
Landorus is broken. It pretty much autowins Eels, it's good against Darkrai, it sets Mewtwo and Deino up for KOs, and it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on almost every deck. It isn't great against Keldeo, obviously, and struggles against Tornadus EX, but every card has its weaknesses.
Next set, Landorus will be even better. Coballion EX is terrible; in fact, I doubt any of the EXs will see play except for Lugia and maybe Thundurus. We'll be getting Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym. If you play those down T1 and hit with Landorus, you're doing 90 damage to their active by the end of their next turn, and 30 damage to a benched Pokémon. It's too fast and too good, could be the BDIF.
Next set, Landorus will be even better. Coballion EX is terrible; in fact, I doubt any of the EXs will see play except for Lugia and maybe Thundurus. We'll be getting Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank City Gym. If you play those down T1 and hit with Landorus, you're doing 90 damage to their active by the end of their next turn, and 30 damage to a benched Pokémon. It's too fast and too good, could be the BDIF.
Otaku
Active Member
FSULugia didn't say that, you did. -_-
You insist that Landorus EX is "useless"; so far people are disagreeing with you. A few have pointed out that it is no more "useless" than cards you are championing... that doesn't mean they think said cards are useless, but that they think you are wrong about Landorus EX.
Emphasis added by me. Rescue Scarf does nothing to alter damage; it kicks in after all damage is done and alters the destination of a Pokémon, rerouting it from the discard pile to the hand.
Discarding Special Energy cards is important, but not every Landorus EX deck uses them, let alone relies on them for Landorus EX itself. Remember Landorus EX, the focus of this thread?
Otherwise... who is saying Cobalion EX will not have at least some use, possibly quite a bit? Oh yeah... you are, as you argue with people not here. :lol:
Many decks already run Darkrai EX, Keldeo EX, or a combination of both just for the purpose of shedding effects such as that of "Iron Breaker". Those that don't usually have some other form of "retreat aid", including something as simple as running a few copies of Switch. Likely we will also get Escape Rope next set as well, another single card, Item based method of countering this approach.
At the same time, I am not claiming thatsaid Cobalion is not worth playing; I haven't tested yet and do not know, and there will be match-ups where its attacks (and fact that it is not a Pokémon-EX) will come in quite handy.
...and?
Again, the only one calling the deck useless is you.
Otherwise this statement is "apples to oranges"; Sigilyph (EX: Dragons Exalted 52/124) is a single card. Not a deck. "Quad Sigilyph" is a deck; I don't know if it will be a strong deck again or is only good when you can find a metagame ill-equipped to deal with it (or be fortunate enough to avoid the decks that are well equipped).
That is incredibly vague and basically useless in a debate; this is the internet and it is quite common to find substantial report for differing views, even minority ones that have little to no evidence in favor of them and a significant amount against.
If you want to cite the work of others, go ahead. Even a general "I was reading on [insert website/], will be helpful. If you do want to be vague, just realize that its anecdotal and can't be treated as this concretely established fact. As an example, I'll regularly mention "I've been reading some reports, and they pain [insert deck/] as struggling. If that is true, then should you..." and sometimes I'll bring it up and flat out ask those on the thread if they believe I got a bad report.
No, but they are dropping in popularity, and in some areas quite quickly. "incredibly fast" is an overstatement.
This sentence is confusing. Darkrai EX decks are amazingly popular. Try actually counting how many Darkrai EX variants are doing well. Not just stuff with a Darkrai EX on the Bench, but decks where it is so important its a part of the name given to it in reporting. You'll find the numbers for the two a lot closer, with Keldeo EX mostly represented by just one deck (with Blastoise).
Avoid misreading drops in popularity as indication that a card isn't good. When you have a good card, and a second similarly good card comes out, there are still only so many players (and decks) that will be seen in a tournament. While Darkrai EX focused decks aren't as big of a percentage of decks as they were, the primary reason for that is there are other strong (and even not-as-strong rogue decks) that are taking a piece of the pie. Oh, and Landorus EX, the card you mentioned as useless, has made running it a bit more risky.
How are your arguments flawed?
1) You will compare and contrast things as if they were of the same kind when they are not; you cannot compare a single Pokémon and to a deck in order to evaluate the viability of one or the other.
2) When comparing two Pokémon or two decks, you must use similar amounts of resource investment. This is especially true with commonly used supporting cards that are easy to play and require few resources, like Eviolite, or have similarly easy to play and run counters... like Eviolite, which is often discarded by a Tool Scrapper.
3) Cherry-picked scenarios can be used, but must be recognized as such, and still can't be used for broad comparisons; with the right scenario nearly any deck can be any other deck, let alone any single Pokémon defeat another. Using "ideal" scenarios proves useful when you provide them for the card you are arguing is going to be defeated... and with everything going for it is still defeated. It can also be useful for explaining general principles such as "Yes, this is an ideal scenario, but the point is it can be done!".
4) You are prone to exaggeration and hyperbole, to a level where it becomes misinformation or outright falsehoods.. which brings us to your final words:
Setting up a Stage 2 Pokémon on the Bench, backing up a Pokémon EX as well as having at least three Energy cards attached to said Pokémon-EX is not "incredibly easy". It is actually fairly challenging in the current format.
For Blastoise/Keldeo EX decks, it is "easier" than many others; Squirtle has an Ability to block Bench damage it would otherwise receive and Keldeo EX has its "Rush In" Ability to allow it to promote itself to the Active position from the Bench, and for a spare copy to change out with another in order to avoid an early game KO. This in turn makes it less likely Squirtle will be left in the Active position, the one place it is vulnerable to straight forward damaging attacks.
Skyla makes grabbing Trainers from the deck much easier, which makes the somewhat common trick of Stage 2 backed decks that don't have a good first turn attacker relying on Tropical Beach more effective as well as the near universal plan of using Rare Candy to Evolve into a Stage 2 Pokémon as soon as the rules allow. You're still giving up a Supporter when you do that, plus the other normal draw backs of such plays, so calling that "easy" is misleading; an overstatement or exaggeration at best.
A truly easy set-up is a deck that just needs to get a Basic Pokémon with an Energy card out. That is about as easy as it gets in this game, and some competitive decks come awfully close (usually just wanting a few other Basic Pokémon in hand or on the Bench). We've had such decks before.
When it comes to more complicated decks than that... we've still had decks that were easier to set-up than Blastoise/Keldeo EX, or were more dominant in the game. Go back and you'll find formats where instead of about 10% of the first place wins belonging to a single distinct deck archetype, 90% did!
rcxd999, you may have some good points, but between poor formatting for your posts (try making more distinct sentences and paragraphs, and making sure they read clearly), hyperbole, incomplete arguments, and even some potential strawmen (or else gross misunderstandings of what others are saying), it is very hard to see any such valid points.
vaporeon
Moderator
We also have to keep in mind that people consider Landorus EX broken is because they choose to play decks that are weak to it. I play a deck full of birds so I look forward to the easy matchup. I can turn its 60 damage a turn to 20.
The only truly broken card is Mewtwo EX because it has a good matchup against everything and can be easily used in everything.
Either your birds (you playing basic birds or the evo lines?) are eviolited, or you are somehow applying resistance on the bench. Shouldn't that be 40?
vaporeon
Moderator
Its both. They are ether evolved and/or the bench has a basic with eviolite. Just saying Landy is not broken unless those people are playing a deck weak against it.
slowbrodeo
New Member
He's just like any other card in Pokémon: situational.
There is no Pokémon in this entire game that has no weaknesses and is perfect in any situation. Mewtwo EX is as close as you get to a broken card and he certainly has an often debilitating weakness.
There is no Pokémon in this entire game that has no weaknesses and is perfect in any situation. Mewtwo EX is as close as you get to a broken card and he certainly has an often debilitating weakness.
Politoed666
New Member
Mewtwo has a terrible matchup against Rayquaza; they OHKO you relatively easily while you do a whopping 60 to them.
The deck that I'm currently playing actually steamrolls Landorus; that doesn't mean it isn't a really good card. I beat Keldeo, too, and Keldeo is good. Same with Ho-Oh. Every card has weaknesses.
Just because your deck is good against Landorus doesn't make it a bad card lol.