mewbreon
New Member
i agree with your statement about catcher.
however, skill has ALWAYS been in the game.
it NEVER left.
hence the reason why the same people keep getting top cut at every event.
Why Catcher Is Not Bad For The Game
- Thread starter StormFront
- Start date
i agree with your statement about catcher.
however, skill has ALWAYS been in the game.
it NEVER left.
hence the reason why the same people keep getting top cut at every event.
Then there are those people that whine about others whining........... they always do........
But back on topic, I feel your points are hit-and-miss. Taking down some of the big bench sitters is probably the best aspect of Pokemon Catcher, IMHO.
SuperWooper
New Member
Agreed. Catcher is scary, but it's not a lot scarier than Reversal. And really, this will be just another metagame shift in a long line of them dating back 10+ years.
GoldenSwablu
New Member
Catcher will change the format. However, it could be good or bad for it.
K2theAblaM
New Member
Three words:
BUILD
BETTER
DECKS
I can't wait until Catcher releases. It'll change the game, most definitely, but not in the way everyone is expecting. Bad players will whine about not being able to set up and having their basics Catchered blah blah... and GREAT players will learn how to counter the "Catcher" and conversely, use it to their advantage. Some decks will become less playable, while other decks will begin to emerge with new strategies better utilizing Catcher in their game plan.
Most importantly, Catcher increases the predictability of the game and decreases the importance of coin flips, something I'm sure everyone can agree is great for the game. There's nothing worse than whiffing on Reversal, Reversal, Junk Arm - Reversal while your opponent flips 2-3 in a row and decimates your setup. With Catcher, everybody flips heads, and everyone can PREDICT and PREPARE themselves to being Catchered.
This means thicker basic lines, TIGHTER decks, and the need for more correct play making decisions. If you ask me, catcher will require an INCREASED level of skill and will ultimately weed out the weaker deck builders and weaker players in favor of those who can prepare and maximize Catcher's potential.
BUILD
BETTER
DECKS
I can't wait until Catcher releases. It'll change the game, most definitely, but not in the way everyone is expecting. Bad players will whine about not being able to set up and having their basics Catchered blah blah... and GREAT players will learn how to counter the "Catcher" and conversely, use it to their advantage. Some decks will become less playable, while other decks will begin to emerge with new strategies better utilizing Catcher in their game plan.
Most importantly, Catcher increases the predictability of the game and decreases the importance of coin flips, something I'm sure everyone can agree is great for the game. There's nothing worse than whiffing on Reversal, Reversal, Junk Arm - Reversal while your opponent flips 2-3 in a row and decimates your setup. With Catcher, everybody flips heads, and everyone can PREDICT and PREPARE themselves to being Catchered.
This means thicker basic lines, TIGHTER decks, and the need for more correct play making decisions. If you ask me, catcher will require an INCREASED level of skill and will ultimately weed out the weaker deck builders and weaker players in favor of those who can prepare and maximize Catcher's potential.
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Otaku
Active Member
My experience with the game shows that we need some method of disrupting the Bench, and preferably something that can be almost universally run. I could be wrong, of course, but ignoring me completely would be as foolish as if I ignored those whose disagreed with me. I don't ignore you, do I untitled?:thumb:
Most of the time does not equal all of the time, and most of the time seems to require maxing it (and possibly Junk Arm) out. You also have caught yourself in a bind. If you can run enough Pokemon Reversal then... you've already been enjoying half the benefit if Pokemon Catcher. The difference is most players anticipate Reversal failing as it is wont to do and make sure to plan for it. When designing a deck good players assume an opponent's Pokemon Reversal will work and plan "for the worst".
I will be very specific here: it is better to have some Bench sitters than no Bench sitters at all, however the decks you named were not fun for me to play against!
You're inserting your opinion as fact. I still remember hating LBS decks but grudgingly accepting they weren't truly broken. Obviously this greatly affects your point. I'll point out that Bench-sitters are not all ruined by Pokemon Catcher. In fact, it only seems to hurt those that are small enough to easily OHKO. If my opponent can OHKO my Emboar or Magnezone Prime, I was probably already in trouble. I mean, before Pokemon Catcher there was a 50% chance they'd just do the same thing with Pokemon Reversal.OHKOing a Ninetales? That's a different story. Simply put that is supposed to be the price of running such Bench-sitters: Pokemon rarely lacks something to punish that kind of Bench-sitter for long. Pokemon Catcher was a surprise when it was first revealed to me and I wouldn't have chosen to print it had I been given the choice... but that choice was when it was released into the Japanese game. Now that it is there, we might as well get it and worst case scenario, we'll have two formats reminding us why it is a bad idea.Not to nitpick, but it depends on how skilled and daring the player is. It still might not work, but couldn't one keep a single Vileplume in play so that they could Seeker it to hand? As long as one also has a Gloom Evolved the previous turn ready to go, you could "Trainer whack" your opponent again by simply Evolve after you had used whatever Trainers you needed. Certainly not a core deck strategy to be used through the whole game, but good for a bind or if you need to push for the win. In the latter case, you'd just need to have a single Vileplume and Seeker (since it'd be for game :lol
.I already have, I assume StormFront already has as well. First, didn't those decks already use Pokemon Reversal? Second, don't good players always anticipate an opponent "being lucky" with cards like Pokemon Reversal? You just named Pokemon that normally score OHKOs early game anyway. Yes, now Zekrom can reliably OHKO your formerly Benched Ninetales. Standard Operating Procedure for the game is that you plan for this, or at least it was when I was playing even remotely competitively.
Simply put I had to post my agreement, overall, with the article. If I have a choice between a format choked with Reversal and Sweet Sleeping Face flips or Pokemon Catcher, at least right now I am going with Catcher. I could be completely wrong and it might be far worse than I realize. The thing is, TPC has had a great track record of proving how broken cards weren't, that it doesn't seem like a huge risk. Before PlusPower re-released, it was broken... well, I thought it was. Before Double Colorless Energy re-released, it was broken... well, I thought it was. Before it was errata'd, Rare Candy was broken. That one I am fairly certain of.
bullados
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?
Otaku, part of the problem with catcher is that there is zero drawback or cost for its use.
Pow! Hand Extension had a massive cost. It required you to be behind on prizes. So it couldn't be used to win the game. Only to come back.
Double Gust had a drawback. It allowed your opponent the same advantage as you were getting.
Both of these cards are superior FOR THE GAME than Catcher/GOW. Because they have drawbacks. Because they have costs.
Pow! Hand Extension had a massive cost. It required you to be behind on prizes. So it couldn't be used to win the game. Only to come back.
Double Gust had a drawback. It allowed your opponent the same advantage as you were getting.
Both of these cards are superior FOR THE GAME than Catcher/GOW. Because they have drawbacks. Because they have costs.
StormFront
New Member
Given the amount of retro cards being released I wonder if goop gas attack will see a reprint.
Seems like my deck will actually stand a chance, I mean, gas goop won't do much o my main attacker
I'm totally gifted <.<...no not really >.>
Otaku
Active Member
Agreed, but its a bit late to do anything about that now. Plus like I said, it appears this format is geared for it.
Incorrect. First and foremost, Prizes are a rough measure of who is winning, barring actually having taken them all. Obviously I can set-up crazy examples like all your Trainers and Energy are in the discard pile, so even if I have all six Prizes left and you have just one to go, what are the odds you're going to win in that scenario? Not good, and what hope you have is through some crazy combo. Like four Kingdra Prime on your Bench, one Reuniclus, and a a Vileplume.:lol:
Now besides the fact that a player could be winning even while allowing their opponent to keep a single Prize lead until the very end, you also neglect that Pow! Hand Extension came out during the EX series, meaning many decks had Pokemon-ex in them that were worth two Prizes. I can appreciate how easy it is to forget this fact, but I happened to run Liability variants for multiple formats, and I most certainly remember abusing Pow! Hand Extension in just that way, allowing my opponent to keep a false lead until I lowered the boom.
Again, incorrect. First is a fundamental thing: you're playing the card on your turn. I have all of my turn to adjust to your choice, and of course won't be playing it when I can't still make it work for me (unless I just needed to change out your Active). This ties into the second thing to remember: the format(s) Double Gust was used in. You'd often have players set-up so that they had only Pokemon with free Retreat Costs on their Bench and/or something they wanted promoted, and quickly the play became to run Suicune (Neo Revelation 27/64). I don't recall if this was before the "one-retreat-per-turn" rule change or not, but even if it wasn't players got good at making sure it was Active before using Double Gust. For those not wanting to look it up, it was a 60 HP Basic with a free Retreat Cost and the Pokemon Power Legendary Body, which rendered it (and any Energy attached to it) immune to the effects of Trainers other than Stadium cards.
An entire archetype, Slashtap, was built around using Double Gust to its fullest, and I believe it was an Unlimited archetype, not a Modified one! I bring this up because a certain segment of the player base considered Double Gust better than Gust of Wind because with the right build, it was "Gust of Wind with a free Switch" owing to said build allowing them to retreat to whatever they actually wanted Active.
First, that isn't saying much: of course it's better to be charged $80 instead of $100 for the exact same service and product! I would love Pow! Hand Extension to return, but it really is a card that can be abused with the right build. Of course, most of its partners in crime are current absent. Double Gust is barely "better" for the game than Gust of Wind (or Pokemon Catcher).
Second, that just doesn't matter since that isn't what the thread is about. This thread was just to talk people down off the ledge because we have older players forgetting that while Gust of Wind was a pain, even with all the tweaked reprints (for want of a better term), we still don't have all the ingredients we had that broke the game for so long in Unlimited. I am nervous, but like I keep reminding people: this is like the fifth time now that a "broken" staple has been re-released. So far, while some have returned to staple status or close to it, most are just useful cards and none have been "broken".
If we want to talk about hypothetical situations and not the actual game, since Pokemon Catcher is being re-released and your choices are not to play OP or to accept it, then we should go to Create-A-Card. I had a nice idea for a Supporter that would need some tweaking because now Supporters always seem to be people. Originally I was going to call it "Violent Gust of Wind" but given all the different gangs, we could totally go with "Machinations and Minions" and even get it with alternate art for each gang. The effect would be a Gust of Wind and allow you to remove up to two attached cards from the targeted Pokemon. This sounds obscene but the latter only matters if that somehow enables the OHKO or if there is no OHKO. I mean, you didn't Energy Removal something you just used Gust of Wind to force up and were going to KO...
*goes on at length about fake cards*
Turn 1: Cleffa active yanma bench for both players. Basically just eek."
Turn 1b: Other player does exactly the same
Turn 2: evolve to yanmega, cather yanma, kill yanma
Turn 2, player 1 wins.
Think of how few decks are in the format now. Well, now think of how few there will be after catcher comes out...
Otaku
Active Member
Jahikoi: I think the way you described it, that actual scenario might be impossible, or at least is lacking a lot of needed steps.
Yyou had one player beat the other by taking a single Prize on his/her second turn, and third overall turn of the game. Even if this was supposed to be an "end game scenario", you didn't keep the hand sizes the same. Both players end their first turns using Eeeeeeek. So at the beginning of the first player's second turn (Turn 2 by your system of counting, overall third turn of the game) the first player Evolves Yanma into Yanmega Prime, and played Pokemon Catcher to force the opponent's Yanma Active. Now, obviously the first player had to draw, so his/her seven card hand is now at 8 cards. Evolving into Yanmega Prime (which required drawing into it with Eeeeeeek or that turn's draw) drops the first player to seven cards in hand. Then that player has to use Pokemon Catcher. Now the first player only has six cards in hand and Yanmega Prime has to pay for its attacks.
Yyou had one player beat the other by taking a single Prize on his/her second turn, and third overall turn of the game. Even if this was supposed to be an "end game scenario", you didn't keep the hand sizes the same. Both players end their first turns using Eeeeeeek. So at the beginning of the first player's second turn (Turn 2 by your system of counting, overall third turn of the game) the first player Evolves Yanma into Yanmega Prime, and played Pokemon Catcher to force the opponent's Yanma Active. Now, obviously the first player had to draw, so his/her seven card hand is now at 8 cards. Evolving into Yanmega Prime (which required drawing into it with Eeeeeeek or that turn's draw) drops the first player to seven cards in hand. Then that player has to use Pokemon Catcher. Now the first player only has six cards in hand and Yanmega Prime has to pay for its attacks.
ShadowGuard
<a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=
No, absolutely no.
Bad players will netdeck cheap catcher decks. Great players are forced to change their decks in a way most in-game skill gets elimited, because they need all the room to have redundant plays. Required gameplay skill will be extremely reduced. In MD-on, it was the same problem but this only applied to SP decks. Good players were at least able to build a solid deck that works against SP and takes advantage of their weakness, while running safe techs against other decks. Not possible any more with Catcher beeing in every deck.
That's right, but it's the only positive thing about Catcher.
As I said, it think it will reduce skill level and make a lot of interesting rogue decks good players could come up with unplayable. There's a reason Pokémon has a concept of a bench. There's a reason some decks can snipe, but it takes more effort and costs than normal damage, and weakness isn't applied. And last but not least, there's a reason strong Pokémon have to evolve and Rare Candy got nerfed. All of it will be lost with the release of Catcher.
Dr. Mason
New Member
Where have I heard all this before? Oh wait.
EVERY TIME A GAME CHANGING CARD HAS EVER BEEN RELEASED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY
EVERY TIME A GAME CHANGING CARD HAS EVER BEEN RELEASED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY
badganondorf
New Member
I think it's great that players try to convince themselves and each other that Catcher is not bad for the game and the format is better than in the SP seasons. There is just the problem that IMO Stormfront's 7 points are just bad arguments. I almost completely agree with ShadowGuard's and there is some points that just have to be pointed out.
The arguments 5. and 6. are the ones that made me reply to this topic. Someone who can say bluntly that Catcher is ineffective in the beginning of the game needs to look at the mirror and play some more games. The few first turns' Catchers are the whole problem of the Pokemon Catcher! Catcher takes away the Reversal flips which is good but it means just that the opening flip has even more meaning considering the matches outcome.
Slow decks don't take advantage of Catcher - in fact Catcher just kills them so they aren't even tournament playable anymore(excluding Trainer lock decks of course). And basic decks will become even more dominating than in the SP season. I want to see someone recovering from T1 Tornados/Zekrom and Catcher when the Tornados player goes first. Because Candy nerffing rule and BTS rotating out, Basic decks will have 2 prize lead before the second going player can even evolve their Pokémon! If someone doesn't see a problem in this then I don't know what can be bad for this game.
Basic decks combined with early Catchers work just like Luxchomp + they can attack any Pokémon T1 and they can always attack any benched Pokémon before they are able to evolve. And this is always - without exceptions.
Nuff' said - Catcher/Reversal shouldn't ever been with the cards and rules we are having now.
The arguments 5. and 6. are the ones that made me reply to this topic. Someone who can say bluntly that Catcher is ineffective in the beginning of the game needs to look at the mirror and play some more games. The few first turns' Catchers are the whole problem of the Pokemon Catcher! Catcher takes away the Reversal flips which is good but it means just that the opening flip has even more meaning considering the matches outcome.
Slow decks don't take advantage of Catcher - in fact Catcher just kills them so they aren't even tournament playable anymore(excluding Trainer lock decks of course). And basic decks will become even more dominating than in the SP season. I want to see someone recovering from T1 Tornados/Zekrom and Catcher when the Tornados player goes first. Because Candy nerffing rule and BTS rotating out, Basic decks will have 2 prize lead before the second going player can even evolve their Pokémon! If someone doesn't see a problem in this then I don't know what can be bad for this game.
Basic decks combined with early Catchers work just like Luxchomp + they can attack any Pokémon T1 and they can always attack any benched Pokémon before they are able to evolve. And this is always - without exceptions.
Nuff' said - Catcher/Reversal shouldn't ever been with the cards and rules we are having now.
King Piplup
Active Member
Catcher will just make ZPS w/ Yanmega too much like LuxChomp was..
Cheap Sniping? Check! (Yanmega and Garchomp C Lv. X)
Attack that can be powered in one turn (with the right cards) and does damage to themself? Check! (Luxray Lv. X and Zekrom)
Has and engine working for it no other deck can use to the same extent? Check! (Pachirisu/Shaymin and the Sp engine. At least P/S can be used a bit by other decks..)
Good for the game? I don't think so...
Cheap Sniping? Check! (Yanmega and Garchomp C Lv. X)
Attack that can be powered in one turn (with the right cards) and does damage to themself? Check! (Luxray Lv. X and Zekrom)
Has and engine working for it no other deck can use to the same extent? Check! (Pachirisu/Shaymin and the Sp engine. At least P/S can be used a bit by other decks..)
Good for the game? I don't think so...