wilhung53's US Nationals Report
- Thread starter wilhung53
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Shiloh Phoenix
New Member
Like william? he's not using birch, I think that's a little wrong...
I think something that we're overlooking here with the whole "legal" stalling issue, and whether it's ok to try and eat up time or not, is that winning by time isn't a win. Yes, I know that you'll get a win in a tournament if time is called in your favor, but check the rulebook. Last time I checked there were only three ways to win: taking all your prize cards, KOing the opponents last Pokémon, and if the opponent runs out of cards in his or her deck. Never remember "running out of time" being a way to win. The only reason time is even an issue is because we have scheduals to keep when we run tournaments. A line has to be drawn somewhere for how long a tournament can go on, for various reasons, and so a time limit per match is the solution. If there wasn't a time limit, would you waste all those cards to try and eat up time? No, you wouldn't. You would save them till you needed them. If you're ever playing cards that you know won't benefit you at all if the game didn't have a time limit, then you're stalling, simple as that. The best way to play an honest game is to play as if there isn't a time limit, make all your moves count, and don't just jack around. None of this is directed at Will in anyway, I'm staying out of that one, but I think we need to reconsider what's "ok" and what's "legal" when we're talking about using time to our advantage.
-Ditto
-Ditto
Adv1sor said:
Have to second your assessment of Ditto's quote.
In answer to your question, maybe. But what judge would enforce it?
Interesting that Prof Dav brings up the "chess clock" idea. There was a lot of stalling observed at multiple Regionals (by others more important to the game than myself).
badganondorf
New Member
It is sad that in the game like Pokemon which has a "spirit of the game" there is such a thing like stalling. I think that TOP players should learn something from "spirit of the game" from "ordinary players". I remember last years worlds I didn`t notice any stalling in any match. I think that is because of I lost first 2 games and then win 3 and lost 1 and then again win so my record was 4-3. Anyone didn`t have any pressures about winning or anything because they knew that they won`t get themselves to TOP 32. I think that if I won the 6th match and then played the 7th match. In that case I would have seen stalling but because we just played for fun guys didn`t stall ,they played like usually. If you stall and you are proud of that you should change the card game you are playing. That would be great if in Worlds FINALS someone would show what is the meaning of "Spirit of the game". If he/she is leading and notices that he/she could stall to the win ,instead of that he plays normally and would be proud that he/she followed the "Spirit of the game" and gave the victory to the 1 who deserves it. But I think that there won`t be top players like this but I HOPE that in Worlds someone will show what is the "Spirit of the game" really like.
Legal stalling in terms of this game is basically a Fillibuster. As long as you can hold the game on your turn, and keep doing things like shuffling and searching (within a reasonable amount of time as you would have at any point in the game) you can run the clock and have it still be legal. It's just like basketball, if you've got possetion of the ball, theres 10 seconds left on the clock and your up by a single point. Whats the strategy there? Just hold the ball so your opponent doesn't even get the chance to score. True it isnt within what anyone would consider SOTG (if that even really exists)but there can be a difference between playing fair, and playing within the rules. Maybe the rules aren't fair? I've seen plently of games where any judge could tell who the eventual winner of the match would be but the floor rules say otherwise when time is called. Maybe im down now, but maybe im about to rock you for 2-5 prizes next turn (I have seen that happen, more than once) Perhaps other options should be considered, this is the same question that has been discussed for months now. I would like to see how it would work out if pokemon adopted a magic style 5 turn extension for when time is called. Get rid of the clock alltogether and you can get back to how the game is supposed to be played.
Shiloh Phoenix
New Member
It's like catch-22. It does and yet doesn't exist.
I don't like the comparison to basketball, because in all reality, it is two different things totally. In basketball, if your opponent is holding the ball, you can fowl them and make them shoot right then. You can steal the ball and make a shot and hopefully win. You can call a time out and you know, have options. When your opponent is stalling, you have NO WAY to stop them. NO WAY. There's no options, and that is why it is different from basketball or football or anything like that. It gives the opponent the unfair advantage and it shouldn't be allowed. People take advantage of it because they want to win and it isn't illegal to play "slow". I honestly feel that many tournaments, even the 2005 nationals would have been different if there had been no stalling. I am 100% sure of this.
And that just shows how much impact this "legal" tactic has on the game.
And that just shows how much impact this "legal" tactic has on the game.
mozartrules
New Member
I watched the last 5 minutes of the game and William wasn't stalling at all. He performed actions that were very reasonable given the state of play, I would have done the same thing if the game had been untimed. The fact that some of the actions in the deck takes time should not be suspicious just because William got a close win on time.
The chess clocks are a good idea. They play off of an idea that I heard at Nationals, where each person should get 15 mins for a game. My first thought when my opponent said that, was of course, chess clocks. That way each player will be playing on his "own time". Each persons 15 mins will be timed seperately via the clocks. If your time runs out, then you lose. I think that would be a really fair way to do this whole time issue. Only drawback with that, is that chess clocks are pretty expensive I thought. This would eliminate the stalling issue though.
I honestly feel that is a good deal. So many people stall and win games. 2004 Worlds would have been different if nobody stalled. 2005 Nationals would have been different if nobody stalled. Stalled is found everywhere compeition is. Give us the clock, people will play within the time, and stalling will be no more. I think that would help the game more than any errata or new idea or anything released this year.
badganondorf
New Member
Stalling is a part of this game and will always be. Chess clocks are bad idea if you have deck like Dark Dragonite 1 turn played "normaly" takes about 4 min when you use 4 Dark Electrodes power shuffle cut so on. any Supporter ,then you think what would you do. Zapdoses turn takes 2 minutes about it can take only few seconds. It relies so much about deck what you are playing how much does your turn take so I can`t see any ways especially chess clock to make this game "fairer"
NoPoke
Active Member
chess clocks aren't a panacea. But they might help.
Chess clocks will cause disputes too.
- My opponent is taking too long to shuffle/cut my deck
- I've told him I don't want to cut yet he still hits his clock and uses my time.
- My opponent interrupts my plays asking for clarification.
- He's rushing his turns..
- Judge you took too long to get here and its used up my time.
- My opponent is calling a judge just so he can pause the clocks and think longer....
I could imagine chess clocks being used to ensure that the game isn't completely one sided. Say for a 30 minute game both players start with 20minutes on the clock. But I'd HAVE to see it in operation before I'd conclude that introducing chess clocks won't priduce as many problems as it fixes.
However by all means introduce speed pokemon as a format.
I have suggested in the past that to reduce stalling then we should adjust the reward for winning a stalled out game.. 2 points for a timed win 4 for a full win perhaps. At the very least it should be possible to reduce the reward for stalling. I've also proposed using a format where all games are untimed.. FLIGHTS:- win a game and progress up the flights, loose and stay where you are. You are paired against players of similar level. It is even possible to allow free play by using the ELO scoring system but instead of a divisor of 400 use a much more extreeme value such as 40. This way the reward for defeating a 'weaker' play is curtailed very fast.
Chess clocks will cause disputes too.
- My opponent is taking too long to shuffle/cut my deck
- I've told him I don't want to cut yet he still hits his clock and uses my time.
- My opponent interrupts my plays asking for clarification.
- He's rushing his turns..
- Judge you took too long to get here and its used up my time.
- My opponent is calling a judge just so he can pause the clocks and think longer....
I could imagine chess clocks being used to ensure that the game isn't completely one sided. Say for a 30 minute game both players start with 20minutes on the clock. But I'd HAVE to see it in operation before I'd conclude that introducing chess clocks won't priduce as many problems as it fixes.
However by all means introduce speed pokemon as a format.
I have suggested in the past that to reduce stalling then we should adjust the reward for winning a stalled out game.. 2 points for a timed win 4 for a full win perhaps. At the very least it should be possible to reduce the reward for stalling. I've also proposed using a format where all games are untimed.. FLIGHTS:- win a game and progress up the flights, loose and stay where you are. You are paired against players of similar level. It is even possible to allow free play by using the ELO scoring system but instead of a divisor of 400 use a much more extreeme value such as 40. This way the reward for defeating a 'weaker' play is curtailed very fast.
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Anytime either player initiates any action that delays the game they have to hit the clock.
You want to know what one of my cards do? Hit the clock and ask all the questions you like.
It would change the way the game is played. For the better? I don't know.
I'd much rather see a return to the double elimination syle tournaments with no time limits on the rounds.
You want to know what one of my cards do? Hit the clock and ask all the questions you like.
It would change the way the game is played. For the better? I don't know.
I'd much rather see a return to the double elimination syle tournaments with no time limits on the rounds.
I am not sure about the "shot clock". Time has always been a big element in thiis game and removing this element might prove difficult, costly, and might actually hurt the game. Dark Slowking was played by Tennis @ Jacksons gym challange. It is supposed to be played slow (it is called SLOWking for a reason now) in that it gets ahead early and can fizzle late game. Check out this thread here for details. It explains the decks strategy clearly in detail.
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20201
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20201
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Articjedi said:
The thing is, that you won't be forcing the players to play any quicker. Set each players side fo the clock for 15 mins, that equals a 30 min round if both players use up all there time. In theory, that's all the time you would have anyway in a round, cause half of the 30 mins is used up by your opponent's turns, while you just sit there and think about what he's doing and what you should do. Yeah, some decks take a little while to take a turn, but it's that way for both players (most of the time), and in almost all decks the time works like this, first few turns are a little lengthy, getting set up, turns after that are fairly quick, until it gets near the end of the game where the harder stratagies of a deck are cranked out.
The best part about it is that each player is playing their "own" time, so purposefully stalling will not help. I think if you really think about it, 15 mins for a single person to make all their own plays, without having to factor in opponent's time (since it's on the other half of the clock) is plenty of time for a single game.
If it hurts Slowking then too bad. Like I said before, time isn't a way to win in Pokémon. If your deck is based on using that as an advantage, then it's not trying to win at Pokémon, it's just taking advantage of a nessicary evil since people have scheduals to keep.
You can always stop the clocks while a judge is being called, or during any other interuption. I think they would help.
Chess clocks are the most terrible Idea I have heard of yet concerning this. Think the of the nightmare just trying to provide them for the players. You should be able to play the game with your deck and nothing more. Were not going to make this yugioh with the calculators...