Worlds '05 Biggest Waste of Time :: Top 8 for 15+ Grinders only made it to Big Event

[SteveP]

IMO, whenever an invitee doesn't show, that should mean 1 more open slot at the grinder for that age group.

Question is, what to do for a 11-14 no-show player who moved up to 15+ before Worlds? Who gets the open slot? 11-14 or 15+? IMO, the open slot should fall into the age group he/she WOULD'VE played at Worlds had they shown up.

Personally, I'd recommend projecting how many players will move up, calculate that into the formula for max attendance, then DO NOT let that mingle with how you determine additional open slots at the grinder.

So, base additional slots on:

- no-shows
- slots opened up by younger players moving up (only for 10-under and 11-14)

The younger players should almost ALWAYS have more open slots at the grinder (no-shows AND move-ups). However, 15+ should ALWAYS have open slots for 15+ no-shows (those slots are NOT filled my move-up players). JMO.

 

[Shellshock929]

I'll let you know my opinion. Next year, it should be 6 rounds and top 16. That is a more reasonable for the grinder for next year. My bro(Espeonchris14) and some of my friends were dissappointed in the fact that there was T8. Rules are rules and we have to go by them. Get as much practice for next year.

 

[sdrawkcab]

lol if you think about it, they had the perfect amount of rounds to deturmin the t8 players in a group of 252....round one 126 players would be undefeted....round2 63 players at 2-0 round 3 31 or 32 players at 3-0 (one would be paired down to some one at 1-1)
Round 4 15 or 16 players at 4-0.....and Round 5 7 or 8 players at 5-0...so no one would get screwed by Resistances....

 

[SteveP]

lol if you think about it, they had the perfect amount of rounds to deturmin the t8 players in a group of 252....round one 126 players would be undefeted....round2 63 players at 2-0 round 3 31 or 32 players at 3-0 (one would be paired down to some one at 1-1)
Round 4 15 or 16 players at 4-0.....and Round 5 7 or 8 players at 5-0...so no one would get screwed by Resistances....

yah, but we shouldn't be arguing that here. The garranteed 8 slots SHOULD go to the undefeated (no tiebreakers). HOWEVER, there should've been more open slots, with THOSE additional slots filled using the tiebreakers.

 

[Rocketman]

Keith,
No offense to you, just in general, you should have heard what I heard that last round!
I know it's tough on those who help out during the year. However, what was promised was given. And if any 15+ feels he should have been given a slot before 10 & under and 11- 14, shame on you.
Dave, hats off to you for looking into ways to work this out. Not too many other companies would do this, if any of you can think back a few years........15+ did not exist for all practial purposes. Is it better now?
Rick

 

[Whicker]

Grinder this year was promised top 8. If you were good enough, you would have won a Gym or regional. period.
Rocketman

I found this comment to be rather offensive. There are several people out there that are plenty good enough to at least play in Worlds that did not win a Gym or Regional. I personally top 4'd 5 qualifiers(2nd at THREE Gyms, 3rd at a regional, and 3rd at a fourth gym) and top 32'd Nationals (remember that all of the top 16 people got a trip). I believe that my consistancy shows that I'm good enough to at least play in Worlds. But I did win a Gym or Regional? No.

 

[ST Pika]

I think they need to have more slots open for this level of tournament... some people like myself couldn't go because of lack of funds or other reasons. The people that put in their hard earned cash to go out there deserve a chance... I'm sure there were many good players that didn't make that top 8. The only thing that got supported as a result was the economy of San Diego...

I hope to be at the next Worlds, but odds are that I'd have to use a grinder to get in, I'm not the best player out there. If I'm gonna sacrifice money for a plane ticket or drive for 4 days round trip, I want a reasonable chance. I read above that they said top 8 only would get in, that's fine, but open slots by non-attending 15+'s should have been added to the 15+ pool, so more people can play. It's cool to watch others play if you didn't make it, or you could go visit the sights in the area... not everyone can get in, that's true.

With the way gas prices and the economy is going, there should be more rewards for someone dragging their butt all the way over to San Diego... a very expensive place to eat, sleep, and drive in. (I'm not bashing the city, I attended 2 WCSTS's there and I know how expensive it was the last time I was there, 6/2002. Prices have most certainly gone up...) Props to anyone who made it out there, for some people that was a real drain on the cash flow.

Just my two cents... I'm glad gas was cheaper when I was doing all my driving this past Pokemon year- but now its 05-06 and school+ high gas prices+ less tournaments in area= no record for 05-06.

 

[Lex Luthor]

The people that put in their hard earned cash to go out there deserve a chance...

With the way gas prices and the economy is going, there should be more rewards for someone dragging their butt all the way over to San Diego...

Since when is Worlds supposed to be about who had to spend money to get there??

 

[ST Pika]

I'm not saying that at all... not everybody has a chance to attend qualifiers for worlds, maybe that's all they can afford to go to on a higher level tournament scale.

 

[mewsmom]

I hear you on this, but it's really difficult to figure out.

We did what we could, and I'm open to suggestions on how to handle it better.

Dave

How about allowing them to play in the age group they won their invite in? Invites are usually won with less than 4ms left before worlds. So make the cap a 3-4 month window to cover Summer birthdays.

A matured 10 or 14yr old player's game doesn't really change much in those few litte months. I think it's really wrong to throw them into the new field with so little experience. Especially at a Worlds event- We all know moving up an age group can be brutal.

 

[Professor Dav]

I think it was handled fairly. The slots are limited,that's how it goes.

The only thing I would change would be to say that you play in the age bracket in which you qualified. If you won an invite in the10- then you play in the 10-.

This can create some serious problems.

Let's say, for example, that we let Reed W. from the 10 & U group (2nd) last year play again in 10&U this year, even though he's eleven now.

Now, suppose he takes 1st, giving him an invite to worlds. Now, he won his invite in the 10 & U division, but he'll be 12 next year. So, we let him play in 10&U? As he got older, he'd never lose, and the other young'uns would leave the game.

Trust me, it's very difficult, and there are more issues than the one above. I heard so many little kids 'cheering' that Reed and Taylor and others had 'aged out' of thier division, that it's hard to argue not letting it happen the way it is.

Prof. Dav

 

[Professor Dav]

This is an unrelated solution, but perhaps actually spamming worlds with grinder people could produce a longer, more exciting worlds main event, topped off with a Top 64?

Sorry guys, we won't ever to a top 64, regardless of how big the event gets. You're all very lucky that we don't want to further reduce our topX cuts. Look at Yu Gi Oh's Nationals this year, 460 competitors. Cut to top 8.

Dav

 

[Professor Dav]

I think next year you should make it the appropriate amounts of swiss rounds.

I would play til 5am to get into worlds.

That's fair that you would do this, but I won't. And my team won't. I put in over 80 hours in 5 days, as did my entire POP staff. Many of the judging and TO staff came close to this as well.

We have far more to do than just run the grinder, and I'm not going to kill anyone because some people would like to have us run all of the swiss rounds, when it really isn't necessary.

Prof. Dav

 

[ryanvergel]

I think the best solution: If you win your invite at a regional/GC in a certain age division, play that same division for worlds. They do that for little league sports, you enter at the appropriate age and play on until the 'season' is over. That would eliminate all those 11-14 kids moving up.

I knew of like 8 people that would be in 15+ that weren't going to worlds, we didn't think so many kids would have moved up in age to eliminate said spots from the grinder.

The good news: the new age divisions, I'm very happy about that, it might be a tad bad for the 8/9/10 year olds getting dominated by 12 year olds though...

But being in 18+ alleviates alot of competition, 15+ was such a dominating division, at least with 13-17, I think the best players from the US will be split into those two divisions, instead of 70% of the best being in 15+


I don't expect the team of judges/etc to play until 5, I'm just saying I would have, alot of players put alot of time and effort into pokemon, for the love of the game.

There's no way to fix the problem though, pokemon will continue to grow popular, and next year's grinder will probably have 300+ with disney being there, and the game getting more popular, and with a top 8 cut at next year's, it will reallllly be unfortunate to have to go undefeated with hundreds of players.

You guys do what you need to, I think alot of people just had very high hopes/wishes/expectations of having a top 12/16 cut and not getting it, which is no one's fault really. I went 4-0, then got eliminated by a deck whose only reason being paired against me was because the player had two drops against him giving him a nice 4-0 record. Not that said player didn't deserve to be 4-0, he had an incredible deck, but because of resistance, I had to play my exact counter...

Playing against the counter doesn't display skill, it's matchups. I played the only counter to my deck because of resistence.

Oh well. Boo hoo, I lost, there's next year, and I'll make it next year. Was it worth it to spend hundreds of dollars as a teenager to go to worlds and not grind in? Probably. Seeing Yamato, getting the staff backpack, and playing/seeing the best players in the world was wonderful, as was the small vacation for the weekend.

POP is obviously trying their/your best, nothing is perfect, it's an evolutionary process. The game will get better, we're just here to make suggestions so we can make sure the game makes the right changes and progresses in the best way the players see fit.

keep up the good work, props to POP

 

[SD PokeMom]

What 'new age divisions'? Link?

'mom

 

[ryanvergel]

What 'new age divisions'? Link?

'mom

It's possible it was a rumour, but I heard all around Worlds that the upcoming age divisions would be something like 12 and under, thirteen through seventeen, and eighteen and up.

There wouldn't be a link because I don't think POP is even home yet, and they take a little while to update their site regardless >_>

 

[yoshi1001]

It's possible it was a rumour, but I heard all around Worlds that the upcoming age divisions would be something like 12 and under, thirteen through seventeen, and eighteen and up.

There wouldn't be a link because I don't think POP is even home yet, and they take a little while to update their site regardless >_>

That's been proposed, but not decided on. It would require a rewrite of TMS and pokemon-tcg.com.

 

[Rocketman]

I got an idea, why not let everyone who comes to worlds in the tournament. The grinder wouldn't be nesscessary and neither would Gyms and regionals. And it would mean so much less. I like the way it is, ie, you must EARN your way in. If you didn't, you get a last, desperate chance. Expanding it more would make it mean so much less. You win or lose by the rules set before you, not change them when they fail to meet your needs.
If the age divisions were going to change, don't you think it would be official by now for the new season? I'm sure it won't happen mid season! Rumors are rumors so I'll start mine now.........everyone who come to the grinder will make it to worlds, even if it's 1000 players. We'll just have to play 32 rounds of swiss and make it a week long event! Maybe 2!
Rocketman

 

[yoshi1001]

I got an idea, why not let everyone who comes to worlds in the tournament. The grinder wouldn't be nesscessary and neither would Gyms and regionals. And it would mean so much less. I like the way it is, ie, you must EARN your way in. If you didn't, you get a last, desperate chance. Expanding it more would make it mean so much less. You win or lose by the rules set before you, not change them when they fail to meet your needs.
If the age divisions were going to change, don't you think it would be official by now for the new season? I'm sure it won't happen mid season! Rumors are rumors so I'll start mine now.........everyone who come to the grinder will make it to worlds, even if it's 1000 players. We'll just have to play 32 rounds of swiss and make it a week long event! Maybe 2!
Rocketman

Actually, 1000 people would require only 10 rounds (although I believe a maximum is mentioned somewhere)

You win or lose by the rules set before you, not change them when they fail to meet your needs.

This assumes the rules are just. I recall the ST: TNG episode "Lower Decks" where the whole point of a test was to decide the rules were unfair. I doubt PUI is doing the same here, but I just want to point out the sanctity of the system is not accepted by everyone.

I'm not here to demonize PUI, however. I think they realize that the system is imperfect just like we do. They, like many of us just aren't sure how to fix or improve it within the limits placed upon them.

 

[Lawman]

I think the suggestion of letting the players play in the age division they won the invite in THAT SEASON is the solution. Taylor and Reed had all this year basically to "adjust" to the new age division, but it is tougher to do so when you win a Regional in spring and age up between May and August! The invites only go to the Regionals, Nat's, gym challenges and Grinder. All those happen after/during spring and summer. We are talking months only, not 12 yr olds competing with 10-'s (unless said "rumor" ends up being true). Just a suggestion for POP.

Keith