Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Worlds '05 Biggest Waste of Time :: Top 8 for 15+ Grinders only made it to Big Event

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It wasn't a secret that one major difference between last year and this year was that every invite this year came with a trip.
POP was disappointed last year that so many invites didn't make the tournament due to the cost of paying the trip themselves.

Anyone sharp should have been able to factor in the consequences of this change.
Sure, people were hoping for more than the eight promised. But I was only mildly surprised the cut was as tight as it was.
 
PokePop said:
It wasn't a secret that one major difference between last year and this year was that every invite this year came with a trip.
POP was disappointed last year that so many invites didn't make the tournament due to the cost of paying the trip themselves.

Anyone sharp should have been able to factor in the consequences of this change.
Sure, people were hoping for more than the eight promised. But I was only mildly surprised the cut was as tight as it was.
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keep in mind a lot of us knew of players that would be in the 15+ that weren't going, so we assumed their slots would be unfilled. assumptions proved wrong :biggrin:
 
Patriarch said:
The main problem is not that POP didn't carry out what it promised-that most certainly happened, and our grinder people finished strong (three 5-3's and a top 16 at least). However, people's complaints are brought about mainly because of the overly-inflated grinder of last year's worlds. The top 32 people were let in, which was actually a shock to most people.
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Well, if you think that 32 people were let in last year to the 15+ group, you're wrong.

Anyone basing anything off of that sort of number is remembering things that didn't happen.

Prof. Dav
 
you know something.
even if you say the grinder was a waste of time, SO WHAT. you are still able to be at the biggest tournament in the pokémon event of the year, and also if you, say knew a second language, French, Spanich, Manderin, ASL... then you would be able to be a translator for the people and have an even bigger rare chance of a life time. especially if your player that you are translating for gets into the finals.

David
 
Professor Dav said:
Well, if you think that 32 people were let in last year to the 15+ group, you're wrong.

Anyone basing anything off of that sort of number is remembering things that didn't happen.

Prof. Dav
Click to expand...

Perhaps the full thirty-two were not permitted. Things happen, and I see a scenario where a person's invite could be taken away. However, invites did extend to at least 32nd place. Johnny Blaze got 32nd in the grinder and earned an invite due to it. I don't see why the thirty one people who placed higher than him did not.
 
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Vince: You know I love everything you do for Pokemon and Alex really loved the Piglet draft. But, to say the LCG shouldn't be held is just wrong. Yes, it is a "drain" on the judging staff, but as you showed, you didnt judge taht night, but did during the main event. Judges can be cycled thru the grinder also. Possibly even use some of the invitees who already have their slot reserved in Worlds as judges in the grinder. As for my playing vs. judging or volunteering for staff duties, my role as Dad comes 1st and until Alex and his friend in the 11-14 division both won trips at the Gym challenge, he wasn't guaranteed a spot in the "big dance". Until I knew for sure that there would be a trustwothy parent @ Worlds to help look after Alex (from our area), then I couldn't devote 100% attention to being a staff member/judge. Once that time came, I believe most if not all of the judges slots had been filled up. Therefore, I decided to be a parent 1st, enjoy my time in SD (which I did) and decided once I arrived in SD to try to grind my way in. Sure, I considered it before, but not greatly. Altho I don't bring as much to the pokemon community as you do M45 or many others here, I feel like I am helping in the East TN area. The only repr. at Worlds 2004 from TN was a couple of folks from Memphis. This year, we added 2 from east TN. Next year, I hope we can have more! But please, leave the grinder in and if it is 8, then so be it. I did enjoy playing in the tourney and meeting more Poke-playing folks from all over.

Keith
 
Several thoughts:

Yes, we are complaining, and here's a little expirament for you so you can figure out why. Why don't you try running your state championship with a top 32 cut, and single-elimination for 5 rounds, then give every prize to whoever places first. 2nd through 32nd get nothing. I'll bet you anything 31 of those 32 people will be dissapointed and/or start complaining.

Once again, we are complaining. But we are also trying to give reasonable solutions. It's not like every person is coming onto the gym and just yelling "POP sucks! And there's nothing you can do to fix it!" No. We are actually providing reasonable fixes to these problems. Some of them are very smart fixes, you should concider them.

Thank you Meganium45 for showing no respect whatsoever for the most important age group. You say that it is the TOs, PTOs and LLs that hold the organised play together. Well, I have another expirament for you. Don't allow any person over the age of 15 to play in any event you organise. Then let us observe how easy it is for all the TOs PTOs and LLs to run reasonable-sized tournies. I guarantee that you'll see enormous attendance drops in all age categories.

Finally...Don't you remember what happened when WOTC eliminated all 15+ from playing? Maybe it's time for a history lesson. THE GAME DIED. From what I remember, 1 year after 15+ was eliminated, there was not a single person On Earth that played the game. No body wants that to happen again. We (the 15+) love this game, and support it deeply, we only ask that you listen to, and concider some of our more reasonable requests.
 
I have no doubt I will get flamed but here goes...Just reading some of these posts after Dave explained what happened and there are still people griping... :nonono: After some of these posts I could see why PUI would not want to bother with a last chance qualifier. Personally I like the idea of it regardless of what the cut is. For those complaining what did you expect??? It was posted on the web site as 8 and at least PUI did not do less than promised. Sure it would have been nice if they could have done more but as Pokepop pointed there were more trip/invites this year given/taken. I have no doubt if there had been top 16 for 15+ there still would have been 15+ complaining about it. Bottom line there are only so many slots available per age group. It just goes to show the Pokemon is growing by leaps and bounds in all age groups and especially in the 15+. If I was playing and had not qualified I would have still gone to try to qualify in the LCQ regardless of the outcome. I don't make it sure I would be disappointed but I would then play in anything else I could, make trades, meet new people, etc... and have FUN...something that some of our 15+ seem to be missing the point of......
 
Coming from the SoCal environment, getting one of those invites to Worlds was extremely difficult. I'm sure there are other places in the country that are the same way. You've got certain players that consistently do well but for one reason or another did not actually win. You can't tell me that all good players are eventually going to win an invite- there is too much luck in this game for that. Then you've got the players who have parents who will drive them, or allow them to drive, to other states to try to win tournaments- often with success which leaves the local players without the invite.
So, what do you do?
For one, once someone wins a certain tournament they can't play in another of the same tournament. This will prevent groups from blocking out other players and allowing only their members to win. Yes, its against the Spirit of the Game, but we all know it happens.
You can't really control the out of state player problem. Case in point. We moved from Cali to Ill. this summer. On the way we hit a Gym challenge in Arizona. My daughter ended up coming in third in 11-14. She was bummed she didn't win the invite but after talking with the TO and others we found out that the only chance the top 2 players had to get to Worlds was during this tournament. They didn't have the opportunity to travel outside of AZ. Made me feel bad- Ashley probably knocked out other players in the same situation- and good because an Arizonan had won. However, this sort of thing happens all of the time and there's nothing you can do about it- but controlling how many times a player can win might help.
Now, the grinder by definition is a "last chance tournament". Why is anyone upset that there aren't more than 8 places???? I can't understand this. The grinder gets more Worlds slots than ANY other qualifying tournament. As the game gets bigger I wouldn't be surprised to see even less slots given in it. This is WORLDS!!! Not Nationals. I think the only reason why the players are having a hard time understanding this is because Worlds is held in the US. This is not a US only event- think of it like the Olympics of Pokemon. Do you see Joe from Ohio traveling to the Olympics (wherever it may be) and trying to get a place in the 100meter dash? I think not! If you haven't earned the right to play in Worlds you should thank PUI for giving you ONE MORE CHANCE!! They understand how much luck is in this game and are acknowledging that with the grinder. If you're as good as you think you are you will win your way in. If you aren't top 8 in the grinder how do you honestly think you will do in Worlds?
 
OK, Lawman...I meant absolutely NO disrespect by my comments towards you at all. I consider you a friend Keith, and there is that rare occaision that I make a controversial statement - eliminate the grider, just to elicit a response, and I get just what I am asking for.

As for stating you are not adding to Pokemon in any way...you know I do not feel that is so AT ALL. You have spearheaded the surge in play in Eastern Tennessee, in an area that was frankly dead. I keep waiting for your name to join the PTO ranks out of Sevieverville (probably mispelled) that none of us could locate, nevertheless have heard of before your stepping forward and making that a Pokemon Community which is a close second to Memphis in the Tennessee Region. You will notice what happened in Memphis...I stepped aside for Clay Mitchell, another elite Pokeparent, to take over as PTO, because that was HIS city and he is more than able to keep the ball rolling and keep in touch with his local parents and players on a week to week level.

I realized that I needed to refocus my attention to St. Louis, and with a newborn, keep my action close to home. Keith, I am sure we will meet up again when we both crash into Memphis for that elusive trip for our kids...and stand back laughing as we judge the 15+ age group, not wanting to even watch our kids in the elimination rounds! That is the joy of PokeParenting to me. Heck, Clay may not need us on his staff, and we may actually get to PLAY the game for once.

Do I mean more to the Pokemon community than you? No, I don't think so. I have just been around longer, and through the ringer a few more times. Don't think Pokemon USA has failed to notice the contribution you have made strengthening the Eastern Tennessee Region.

As for you Flaming Spinach...have you actually looked at my numbers? My 10- and 11-14 groups OUTPACE my 15+ groups BOTH at the events I ran in Memphis, and in St. Louis.

I appreciate my 15+ players, ask swanton, Anthony, Absol and Eric who took them ALL OVER the midwest to play in events this tourney season. Not my kids, but 15+ players from MY city.

Who was the FIRST PTO to openly back his 15-17 year old judges telling them that they were still protected on my judge rotation notwithstanding that they are no longer professors?? ME.

Who gives out BONUS stuff to EVERY age group for undefeated play in swiss, including BASE ENGLISH 1st Edition Packs (ask Ness and Vernola) and Trainer Deck Bs for playing in my events and doing well in Swiss? I do all I can to appreciate my players, of every age group at my events...

I am blessed in St. Louis by having players that realize the game is bigger than they are...the first 3 trips out of St. Louis this year came BEFORE the regionals even started....Bigpoppabeatdown and Psyduck were given trips to JUDGE worlds along with myself....

Yeah, I put on the facade of not caring about the 15+ players from time to time...it is a cute rough exterior...in the end, I take care of my players, as without the 15+ group...I would not be nearly as successful in St. Louis.

OK...Talk to you soon...

M45
 
8 players minimum from a LCQ (Grinder) make it into worlds.

Isn't that MORE than at any other event?

I'm not sure what the actual problem being complained about is? 5-0 is a little harsh as a criteria for entry but most of us knew that two losses and your chances were slim to zero! lol. Even 4-1 was going to be tough and down to tiebreakers. Suppose another one or two rounds had been run what then? one of the 5-0 players after round two wouldn't have made it into worlds in all likelyhood. Is that fair? The grinder was what it was. Surely noone in the 15+ expected an easy ride into worlds through a Last Chance Qualifier. *shrug* :rolleyes:

I enjoyed the grinder.

hmm need to say that a bit bigger...

I ENJOYED THE GRINDER. The Grinder was Good

And I suspect I'm not alone.



If you want a complaint then all I can think of was that I missed the dinner and had to arrange some alternative guardianship for my 11 year old son. Now that isn't a great deal to get worked up about is it?
 
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ok, time for me to speak...

I probabally am the most ticked off person from the grinder, making top 10 percent of the list and still not getting in. But to anybody who thinks they should have added more people, try this experiment. Take an empty room. Fill it up with people and shut the doors. Now add 1 more person. Physics says that you wont be able because the room would try to empty itself. AKA NOT ENOUGH ROOM. If the "arena" was bigger, maybe a bigger cut would have been avaliable. Venue size is always a factor, and since each table only sits 2 games/matches...you do the math. A few from Team Nevada went to complain to Mike L. about how they felt but there was nothing he could do, and keep in mind that I finished higher than all of them. I took my bitter medicine and went on, knowing that I played my best, and being the first time in a "major" getting better than a 50/50 record. Now if a location could hold more individuals, then I believe POP/PUI would increase the number of last chance invites from 8 to who knows how high. And 1 more thing to remember, even though most of the 15+ were over 15, the 14 year olds who turned 15 during the tournament season also move into the 15+ so there went some spots. 1 person comes to mind, Reed W, Last years runner up, who is now 11, recieved his invite last year from the 10- division. Oh well, if I could learn to live with it, I think everybody else can.
Not to say that Im mad about it, but I still showed respect and didn't vent out any frustration in the gaming room.

Just my 2 cents

Duke~
 
OK, back on my soapbox...

Since when should the GRINDER be the EASIEST way to get into Worlds??

Which event had the most invites into Worlds attached to it in 2005???

THE GRINDER....8 for 15+!

That makes the Grinder more relevant than Nationals? Regionals? Gyms?

So the Grinder is for those who could not make top 16 at the US Nationals?

Sorry. That makes NO SENSE.

You want another suggestion to get me hate responses. Let's fix 2 birds with one stone.

Grinder only open to foreign players! <<Another reactionary statement>> You want more foreign players in the main event...there is your solution.

There is no doubt that everyone in the US had ample opportunities to compete for a trip to Worlds this year. Heck, every city you looked at had a Gym Challenge! Every player was in reasonable range of at least one regional championship. Sure Nationals was a drive for the west coaster, Floridas, Texas, and most everyone else,,,but you had the chance to collect $300 for getting there!

The foreign players were limited in their Worlds qualification chances. If they are willing to pay the coin to come and play...let them get the opportunities at the last chance grinder...because the US players ALREADY HAD THEIR CHANCES.

But what about the companions coming to Worlds? How about some fun side events after the reception...unlimited tourneys...things like that...or, maybe, a Pokemon Rocks America style event for the competitiors and their families to enjoy!!!

Keep the responses coming, this is fun!!!!

M45
 
M45, that is an awesome idea! Praise this guy for coming up with it. Now THAT is an idea to make the game better.

I agree with everything M45 is saying. The USA players did have ample opportunities to win an invite and/or trip to worlds.

Man, I really want to contribute to this thread, but I think M45 has really spoken for me.
 
:eek: Knock it off Vince! :biggrin: Your hurting my brain with these reactionary statements. Post your good idea about the limitations for the Grinder.
 
OK, you want my "real" suggestions for the grinder...here we go. (these are also being submitted to PUI)


1. Move the starting time to 3:00 registration 4:00 start...we know our numbers we are taking at about 7:00, that way the grinder can finish up right about the time we learn our numbers for the groups.

2. Have the Worlds Judges only required to work 2 hour shifts, with "newer", "sponsored" judges who want to prove themselves on a big stage working the event. The Worlds Judges would serve as HJ during their shift, and it would be a great way for Worlds Qualifiers who enjoy judging to get some judging time in. This would also save the Worlds Judges energy for the Worlds tourney on Saturday and Sunday, when their energy is needed!

3. Set the number of rounds at the outset at 6 for 15+. Starting at 4:00, we can be done about 8:15-8:30. Plenty of time for EVERYONE to get some rest.

4. Limit the attendance to 128 for each division. Announce that to start. You register #129 for 15+...you are not in. (This is the suggestion I am least attached to...just would make things easier)

5. Please don't hate me for making my extreme posts. Sometimes I just like to get a reaction.

Vince
 
When a 15+ slot opens up because a 15+ invitee doesn't show, that SHOULDN'T be filled by 11-14 players moving up, but rather by someone from the grinder. Did that happen this year? I don't know.

The grinder, as implied by it's nick-name, is THE MOST DIFFICULT way to get an invitation (accept for the 10-under, but that's okay because we need LOTS MORE of those players anyway). HOWEVER, a form of age discrimination occurs when 15+ no-shows are filled by 11-14 move-ups. POP needs to be equitable in ALL age categories in the way they fill the no-shows. JMO.
 
I'd like to add something to your post M45:

6. If a 10 or 14 year-old wins an invite in a Gym Challenge, Regional or National Championship, and they have a birthday between that event and the time worlds begins, they will play in the same age division they won their invite in.


This will leave a few more than 8 spots open in 15+, and probably wont give a free pass to everyone in 10-.

What do you think of that?
 
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meganium45 said:
OK, you want my "real" suggestions for the grinder...here we go. (these are also being submitted to PUI)


1. Move the starting time to 3:00 registration 4:00 start...we know our numbers we are taking at about 7:00, that way the grinder can finish up right about the time we learn our numbers for the groups.

2. Have the Worlds Judges only required to work 2 hour shifts, with "newer", "sponsored" judges who want to prove themselves on a big stage working the event. The Worlds Judges would serve as HJ during their shift, and it would be a great way for Worlds Qualifiers who enjoy judging to get some judging time in. This would also save the Worlds Judges energy for the Worlds tourney on Saturday and Sunday, when their energy is needed!

3. Set the number of rounds at the outset at 6 for 15+. Starting at 4:00, we can be done about 8:15-8:30. Plenty of time for EVERYONE to get some rest.

4. Limit the attendance to 128 for each division. Announce that to start. You register #129 for 15+...you are not in. (This is the suggestion I am least attached to...just would make things easier)

5. Please don't hate me for making my extreme posts. Sometimes I just like to get a reaction.

Vince
Click to expand...

And the rankings limitation?! 1750 or higher or you can't get in the grinder.
 
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