Why are people scared of Dusknoir LV. X?

[Pidgeot5]

The problem I see for Dusknoir lvl x is that it is not particularly powerful unless its power is triggered, which I think makes it too risky to base a deck around, because if your opponent never triggers the power, you're in a lot of trouble. Given you can use things like Unown g to increase those chances but other than 1P for somewhat limited sniping (i.e you can't snipe any pokemon protected by Unown g or something similar and you are limited by the damage on Dusknoir) it is pretty mediocre.

It is likely to win tournaments here and there, but I'll be surprised if this card dominates the format and if it begins to, more and more people will play Dusknoir counters depending on how the popularity goes on how to play this card.

 

[bug2]

dusknoir x is not a problem as long as u put it on ur opponents bench. its body doesnt work if its on their bench.

 

[lolganium]

The problem I see for Dusknoir lvl x is that it is not particularly powerful unless its power is triggered, which I think makes it too risky to base a deck around, because if your opponent never triggers the power, you're in a lot of trouble. Given you can use things like Unown g to increase those chances but other than 1P for somewhat limited sniping (i.e you can't snipe any pokemon protected by Unown g or something similar and you are limited by the damage on Dusknoir) it is pretty mediocre.

It is likely to win tournaments here and there, but I'll be surprised if this card dominates the format and if it begins to, more and more people will play Dusknoir counters depending on how the popularity goes on how to play this card.

this made me laugh, im sorry i gotta be honest. if dusky is never ko'd, then you got a pokemon that you could easily put onto 12 counters and just hit anything in play for 12 counters! that, is a huge threat. especially with the second attack, if you're knocking out any of your opponents pokemon with energy then they wont be able to attach enough energy to attack at all! if dusky comes out, then he's a 140hp beast that will squat harder everytime you hit him without a ko. and then when you do finally ko something, he becomes the best spread card in the format. though im probably wrong, i usually am about these things...

 

[The Machampion]

this made me laugh, im sorry i gotta be honest. if dusky is never ko'd, then you got a pokemon that you could easily put onto 12 counters and just hit anything in play for 12 counters! that, is a huge threat. especially with the second attack, if you're knocking out any of your opponents pokemon with energy then they wont be able to attach enough energy to attack at all! if dusky comes out, then he's a 140hp beast that will squat harder everytime you hit him without a ko. and then when you do finally ko something, he becomes the best spread card in the format. though im probably wrong, i usually am about these things...

You tell 'em Dan.

Dusknoir LV-X is broken. Im teching counter stadiums into all my decks cus of it.

Luke

 

[The Knee]

this made me laugh, im sorry i gotta be honest. if dusky is never ko'd, then you got a pokemon that you could easily put onto 12 counters and just hit anything in play for 12 counters! that, is a huge threat. especially with the second attack, if you're knocking out any of your opponents pokemon with energy then they wont be able to attach enough energy to attack at all! if dusky comes out, then he's a 140hp beast that will squat harder everytime you hit him without a ko. and then when you do finally ko something, he becomes the best spread card in the format. though im probably wrong, i usually am about these things...

He never said he wouldn't knock it out, he said he wouldn't trigger the power. There is a difference.

 

[chriscobi634]

The thing about Dusknoir Lv. X is that it follows the rule with any other Stage 2 Lv.X Pokemon: it's only going to be a bonus to it's regular Stage 2.

Look at all the other previous Stage 2 Lv.X that have done well:

Infernape is good because it combos well with it's other forms. In discarding energies to do big damage and the this guy brought it all back to make a bigger hit.

Empoleon help the first two Empoleon, and the SF to disrupt with their Powers.

Torterra got help from the D/P one by removing the damage it did to itself. It gave the MD one, consecutive 100 turn attacks.

Gardy really has been the one that didn't combo with it's previous Stage. It combo to an extent with Gallade, but not much.

'Zone X combos well with all three of it's previous Stages. Moving Metals to give free retreat to anything with the D/P 'Zone, moving the Electric energies by the Electric SF 'Zone, or being searched by the Metal SF 'Zone.

IDK about Machamp as I haven't playtested with or against it.

So Dusknoir Lv. X...

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

combos well with 3/4 Dusknoirs. The Dusknoir it combos least with is the D/P. It's funny to me how everyone wants to tech that one in although it's the least effective combo. Don't get my words mixed up, I'm not saying it's a bad play, just not the best combo with it's Lv.X Stage.

It combos best with the in between turns damage one because of the passive damage but also the attack. Unfortunately it's not the one to center a deck around because of it's high energy cost attack/low efficiency attack.

Then the one to base a deck around is Damage Even Dusknoir. It's Power helps set-up a fuel the Damage Even attack. Not only that but it's the best spreader, which is what the Lv.X does.

The Promo IMO is the second best Dusknoir. Helping spread and healing itself AND putting those damage to your opponent's Pokemon for 3 energies is semi-broken. It's Power is flippy but if it weren't it would be as good as the D/P Power. It also has the highest HP of the regular Dusknoirs and just 2 retreat cost.

 

[DarthPika]

Is it the best card out there? No.

Is it really good? Yes.

 

[Brady1]

Is it the best card out there? No.

Is it really good? Yes.

I think you mispelled "absolutely no" in your second responce. Theres limitless ways to counter dusknoir level X. And guess what? Its power is so easy to counter that, combined with the low damage output of dusknoir, equals a pretty easy match for nearly every deck.

 

[butlerforhire]

I think you mispelled "absolutely no" in your second responce. Theres limitless ways to counter dusknoir level X. And guess what? Its power is so easy to counter that, combined with the low damage output of dusknoir, equals a pretty easy match for nearly every deck.

"Limitless?"

First of all, a good Dusknoir build is not going to be so centered around Ectoplasm activating and sticking that it auto-loses when that doesn't happen. Second of all, there are ways to play around those who try to play around Dusknoir lv. X, including Unown G. With it, status effects won't do the trick nor will damage placement. That basically leaves using Magnezone SF's Gyro Ball, hitting heads on Feinting Spell, or Warping/Restructuring it to the bench and KOing it there. Not every deck has those abilities.

The counter stadium issue is a legitimate one, but the right Dusknoir build will maximize its ways to cut the opponent off from even drawing into them (ie. Wager followed by an 80+ Damage Even to Claydol). The upcoming Dialga G also has a Disconnect-type attack that prevents them from playing them altogether for a turn. If you swarmed enough of those you'd be able to lock it long enough to either win or leave them severely crippled. It'll also typically be using something to take advantage of the fact that everything on your side just got hit for at least 20 such as Bronzong. Even if you remove the stadium quickly, that damage isn't just going to evaporate into thin air unless you're running Torterra and a Bronzong or two or three will capitalize on it. Plus, the lv. X goes back to the hand and thus back onto Dusknoir in most cases, meaning you'll be taking at least another 20 again down the road. You can't avoid directly KOing it forever and you obviously can't just abstain from attacking it because of Damage Even.

It's not unbeatable by any means or even broken for that matter, but it isn't so easily dismissible either. If it was then every deck wouldn't be running counters to it.

 

[SPARTA]

Dusknoir will be a force to be reckoned with, but the fact remains that it needs to be dying to deal any form of damage to really be effective.
Lets take a deck that can take out Dusknoir in a single hit, shall we? You can use Night Spin for 3 energy and deal 50. With a few turns, you can use the power and spread maybe 40-60, at the cost of your health. The Lv X is truely annoying, but the main problem with Noir is the main useable form needs to be next to dead before he starts ripping things apart.

Yes, I know that spread adds up, but two counters per KO from a stage two is really not going to scare many people, especially if we can take down another pokemon before you Lv X again. And this is JUST applying to deck that can only take out the active, when you factor in decks that can take it out on the bench and not turn it into a stadium... yeah.

Dusknoir can be good vs some decks. He murders Kingdra straight from the get-go for example. But I really cannot see Noir bieng higher than Tier 2, just because the most playable form (if you cannot accelerate energy outside of Rotom and Energy Pickup, you have no energy accel, before anyone says it) only hurts when it is hurt.

 

[The_Lurb]

People are scared of Dusknoir Lv.x because it's a ghost, duh.

But seriously people are scared of it because if you don't get rid of it the turn after it comes into play it will have spread 30 damage to everything before you get another chance. Oh and it basically NEVER DIES.

 

[SPARTA]

People are scared of Dusknoir Lv.x because it's a ghost, duh.

But seriously people are scared of it because if you don't get rid of it the turn after it comes into play it will have spread 30 damage to everything before you get another chance. Oh and it basically NEVER DIES.

20 actually. end of my turn, end of your turn, then I get rid of it.

 

[chriscobi634]

So the ideal combo since it doesn't have energy acceleration is to play it with a 0 or 1 energy cost spread Pokemon. A few that come to mind are:

Brongzong - Most obvious and probably most effective.

Yanmega - This might work with Dusknoir D/P to keep their bench small and have them switch to something up that they didn't want to bring up. It's damage not damage counters, so it still would hit Claydol if it has an Unown G.

Azelf Lv.X - No weakness to Dusknoir in case people tech Weavile to counter Dusknoir that way. Very good/cheap damage spread, and could get the Lv.X in case it's prized.

Gengar - I'm not too fond of this combo although I can see why it works, and how it can be very annoying.

Prinplup (D/P)/Empoleon as this could help with Magmortar match-up as it doesn't look like a very good one for Dusknoir.

Devoluter could work to get a KO or two with all the spread it has.

Just to name a few to solve the energy "problem" it has.

 

[SPARTA]

So the ideal combo since it doesn't have energy acceleration is to play it with a 0 or 1 energy cost spread Pokemon. A few that come to mind are:

Brongzong - Most obvious and probably most effective.

An extremely effective pokemon to be sure, but this indirectly leaves you more open to Dusknoi's bane. I speak, of course, of Unown G. Placing this on a Pokemon allows for the abilty to ignore the placing of counters, which, sadly, allows one to escape Bronzong unscathed.

I also forgot to mention one more problem I see with Noir, high damage potential. I have a Luxray active, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT OR I WILL TEAR YOU TO RIBBONS. Dusknoir can only place counters, and since Lux OHKO's if you so much as touch your power, and always OHKOs the Lv X, he becomes a bit of a pain. And its not just Lux who can do this, T Tar, Torterra, really any Stage 1/2 who can hit for high damage with more than 100 HP is a pain for Noir to take out

Yanmega - This might work with Dusknoir D/P to keep their bench small and have them switch to something up that they didn't want to bring up. It's damage not damage counters, so it still would hit Claydol if it has an Unown G.

I like that he disrupts early and get around Unown G, but it still has the no high damage to the active problem. Still, a good solution.

Azelf Lv.X - No weakness to Dusknoir in case people tech Weavile to counter Dusknoir that way. Very good/cheap damage spread, and could get the Lv.X in case it's prized.

I would think Azelf would be automatically included. Placing counters, grabbing the much needed Lv X, and preventing weakness? Yes please. Unfortunatly, a smart player will never allow him to kill one of their pokemon they cannot afford to replace, since your opponent controls the amount of energy they have on the field.

Gengar - I'm not too fond of this combo although I can see why it works, and how it can be very annoying.

Ew, no. Combining two fast stage twos to make a slow, clunky, trashy deck. Sorry, but no.

Prinplup (D/P)/Empoleon as this could help with Magmortar match-up as it doesn't look like a very good one for Dusknoir.

Another type added in combined with the fact Yanmega does this for free means... eh, why bother putting it in?

Devoluter could work to get a KO or two with all the spread it has.

But you need to get the damage their first, which is what I'm talking with this deck

Just to name a few to solve the energy "problem" it has.

Good solutions, all well thought out (aside from Gar and Emp). But none of them truely solve the problem, which for some reason I neglected to post before.

My mistake.

 

[chriscobi634]

Sparta we both know we both are good/intelligent players yet you always only attack the "weak" spots to a post coming from another good/intelligent 'Gym member. I'm simply not going to respond to each one of your responces because it'll get us to BoF.

I will say that using the energy requirement as an attacking point on Dusknoir as the best costs efficient attack on any Dusknoir is Damage Even.

Sure you can argue that it does nothing if it's getting OHKOed. But if your a smart player you can make it so that it isn't getting OHKO. Or that D/P 'Noir is a great late game attacker, or Promo 'Noir atrack is almost broken. Why aren't those effective? But no Scramble or DRE is what makes your point about energy acceleration a valid one.

I've playtest about 10 games with Wood811, he had his T3 Tortile list first 3 games. I beat him all 3 games. Then he teched his Tortile with 2 Unown Gs, 2 Dawn Stadiums, 1 Torterra (D/P). Still beat him 3/4. The last 3 games he made his list consistent again and dropped...

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

some minor Techs like Azelf(SF,no LV.X, just regular to get a prized Pokemon), Spiritomb (which can actually if timed right with Torterra (D/P) can turn around the Dusknoir match-up and really helps in the Gengar match up), and a couple of other cards that didn't affect the consistency of the deck. While still keeping the Dusknoir techs I mentioned before.

The last 3 games he got me 1-2. But 1 game he got ridiculous set up: 2 Torterrad, Sceptile and Claydol T3. On top of that he had both Unown Gs in play. Even then I managed to take 2, almost 3 prizes.

So high Pokemon that hit for 100+ a turn isn't a problem for ny build. I would expect any skilled player can come up with a list that can be a Top Tier 1 deck. Many not BDIF, nut definitely fighting for that position.

 

[SPARTA]

Sparta we both know we both are good/intelligent players yet you always only attack the "weak" spots to a post coming from another good/intelligent 'Gym member. I'm simply not going to respond to each one of your responces because it'll get us to BoF.

Oh I beg to differ, I go after the entire post, not individual point. And incidently, your post didn't have a weak point, it just didn't solve the problem that Noir had that I failed to mention in my post, hence you had no idea how to respond to something I never said. I am not going after you, believe me there would be alot more astrics here if I was, and Prime would ban me within 30 secs (hes watching...)

I will say that using the energy requirement as an attacking point on Dusknoir as the best costs efficient attack on any Dusknoir is Damage Even.

Sure you can argue that it does nothing if it's getting OHKOed. But if your a smart player you can make it so that it isn't getting OHKO. Or that D/P 'Noir is a great late game attacker, or Promo 'Noir atrack is almost broken. Why aren't those effective? But no Scramble or DRE is what makes your point about energy acceleration a valid one.

There is no real way to play around a deck that can OHKO you when you become active. you really can't play around a T-Tar with 4 energy and a Darkrai Lv X (to name an example). If aa deck can consistantly OHKO you, you really do not have many options to be able to take them out, due to Dusknoir's limited damage potential.

I've playtest about 10 games with Wood811, he had his T3 Tortile list first 3 games. I beat him all 3 games. Then he teched his Tortile with 2 Unown Gs, 2 Dawn Stadiums, 1 Torterra (D/P). Still beat him 3/4. The last 3 games he made his list consistent again and dropped...

No offence to Wood, but this would appear to say more about his playing skill and decklist than its matchup.
Posting results is pointless, they can be madeup, posted whether or not their start was good, results tested from those with a bad list, Ect. The simple fact remains that ourside of going aggro Night Spin, you cannot be hurting Torterra without giving them the ability to OHKO you (unless you become the Lv X and use his power once, then yuo can deal... 20). Post w/e results you want, without someone I know verifying the results, you can simplysay what ever you want, also known as hearsay.

some minor Techs like Azelf(SF,no LV.X, just regular to get a prized Pokemon), Spiritomb (which can actually if timed right with Torterra (D/P) can turn around the Dusknoir match-up and really helps in the Gengar match up), and a couple of other cards that didn't affect the consistency of the deck. While still keeping the Dusknoir techs I mentioned before.

Dusknoir is very consistant, similar to the way Metanite was, its main attacker also can set you up. With Uxie, Claydol, and Dusknoir, you can go through alot of your deck in a very short amount of time, thats one thing I like about Noir, it rarely is shutdown.

Incidently, put the Lv X in. Its attack and body are amazing with this deck, and it only takes up one slot.

The last 3 games he got me 1-2. But 1 game he got ridiculous set up: 2 Torterrad, Sceptile and Claydol T3. On top of that he had both Unown Gs in play. Even then I managed to take 2, almost 3 prizes.

Again, results I did not see thus cannot say whether or not Wood was a good player with Terra or not. No offence to either you or Wood, but second hand play results with no reliable person seeing them is nothing more than hearsay.

So high Pokemon that hit for 100+ a turn isn't a problem for ny build. I would expect any skilled player can come up with a list that can be a Top Tier 1 deck. Many not BDIF, nut definitely fighting for that position.

Top Tier players I know have been working on Noir for a while, infact Chad Harris (Scizor on the gym) was the first person to show me just how consistant it was. The problem was that vs many of the top tier decks, your damage output is going to be very low because many can take you down in a single shot. Consistancy means nothing if you don't have power to back it up.

 

[Ardoptres]

Dusknoir is just too slow. They're not a BAD cards at all, but not near bcif's.

 

[SPARTA]

DUSKNOIR IS NOT SLOW IF YOUR LIST IS GOOD. Its speed is the one thing I really like about it.

 

[Dual_Draw]

Dusknoir is looking good because you can easily get your Nerds (Dusknoirs) going, my list has 90% of the games T2/3 Dusknoir and Claydol. Shadow Command speeds up the deck and allows Wagers to be used every turn (You can just Snipe away Claydols almost at will). DP allows the you to keep threats "Low" I guess and shuffle things that may pose a threat to you in.

Not to mention, you have a great Staler in Bronzong, after Dusknoir Lv.X has been knocked out (From Damage) this guy brings Chaos, by the time he's done he has at least brought along 50-100 damage to your Pokemon, Claydol dies in 2 turns from the Bronzong. Also while you are using Bronzong, you can easily power up a Dusknoir or if needed Azelf Lv.X to do the rest of your biding.

 

[Wood811]

Just remember kids, SPARTA has the best decklists you can't beat him, he is all knowing. I honestly don't see much that beats noir, tort has an ok matchup, I intend to test gg/weavile tomorrow. Then again I have poor lists and skills nevermind.:/

I'd have to say mortor has good matchup vs spread decks.