Donking, and why it is suddenly a big concern for the community

[Kayle]

^Personally, I don't think playing with or against Vilegar in general is fun. It's boring, repetitive, and doesn't feel fun. However, I don't openly whine about the deck like with the donk decks. I don't like getting donked, but I don't like losing either. Donk decks are nowhere near as huge as decks like Luxchomo, Machamo, Gyarados, Dchomo, and others.

I honestly completely agree with you about Vilegar; it just doesn't seem like all that much fun to play or to play against. Same goes for Psychic Lock last year.

Porii, why don't you just play Luxchomp (or Dchomp, which is considerably less expensive) if you like winning? I like winning too, but I prefer playing a full game and losing over playing a cheap game and winning. I will take the opportunistic donk (because I prefer lucksacking a round or two and making cut, which allows me to play more games that are more intense), but I won't AIM for it.

 

[SuperWooper]

OK, let me ask you this

Would you rather be donked by a Uxiedonk

or

Would you rather play Uxiedonk vs. a Vilegar that hits T1 Tomb T2 Vileplume?

Neither.

17char17char

 

[Shishio]

idk i dont feel like Donking is too powerful. I mean it preactically auto-losses to gyarados since they both have water weakness.

 

[Porii Sames]

I honestly completely agree with you about Vilegar; it just doesn't seem like all that much fun to play or to play against. Same goes for Psychic Lock last year.

Porii, why don't you just play Luxchomp (or Dchomp, which is considerably less expensive) if you like winning? I like winning too, but I prefer playing a full game and losing over playing a cheap game and winning. I will take the opportunistic donk (because I prefer lucksacking a round or two and making cut, which allows me to play more games that are more intense), but I won't AIM for it.

I like winning; but I play for fun. What I meant by that is that I'm a casual player; not a noob, not competitive. But I DO like winning.

Beedrill G...I fell in love with it a year ago. It is my tournament deck because of how freaking fun it is to play so many cards a turn, but I still bring my Sablock, Luxchomo, and other decks to tournes to play with people afterwards.

 

[Kayle]

I like winning; but I play for fun. What I meant by that is that I'm a casual player; not a noob, not competitive. But I DO like winning.

I totally can't understand how you're supposed to be "playing for fun" when you'd rather take an easy win that requires no REAL work at all than face a difficult game ("Autoloss" - which, by the way, is a misnomer because no game is unwinnable).

When you're donking you aren't even playing Pokemon, you're playing solitaire.

Your Beedrill must be some kind of amazing exception I guess?

 

[Raen]

I like winning; but I play for fun. What I meant by that is that I'm a casual player; not a noob, not competitive. But I DO like winning.

Beedrill G...I fell in love with it a year ago. It is my tournament deck because of how freaking fun it is to play so many cards a turn, but I still bring my Sablock, Luxchomo, and other decks to tournes to play with people afterwards.

My biggest issue with what you are saying is that, since you have fun playing a donk deck, you're kinda ignoreing how it is for the other player. Remember: being donked sucks. Period. So you are having fun at everyone else's expense.

This isn't necessarily an attack at you (although I do personally dislike your defense of donking as a good thing), but a comment on what makes donking suck: One player comes out of it having had no fun, and having played no Pokemon. The point of the tournament is to have fun and play some Pokemon. Donks don't truly allow for either.

 

[Porii Sames]

@Kayle
I find Beedrill G fun. I liked it when I was like 12, and kept with it because I kept playing it for a lonnnggg time. Back then, I didn't really care about donking people or getting donked in the slightest. I wanted to donk. However, back then, Beedrill G was actually a disruption deck (Luxray, Mesprit, Azelf MT) meant to do high damage and disrupt as much as possible. I rarely even donk people that often; it's normally a played out game. I chose to make my deck have better late game play (4 energies, flowershop, thick Cyrus line) on purpose so that if I couldn't donk then I would stand a chance. Besides, if I donk someone, I'll try to play them again later.

@Raen
I don't ignore the other player. I see people looking mad at me after donking sometimes. It does suck; I won't argue that. And Beedrill G was a deck I played last year when I didn't care about donks and LOVED the solitaire-esque feel to it. I played it and played it for hours a day; buying the necessary cards, even traded for a Luxray X. I don't think it's fun donking people; but that's how I choose to win.

What is your definition of "play" and "fun"?

 

[Raen]

@Kayle
I find Beedrill G fun. I liked it when I was like 12, and kept with it because I kept playing it for a lonnnggg time. Back then, I didn't really care about donking people or getting donked in the slightest. I wanted to donk. However, back then, Beedrill G was actually a disruption deck (Luxray, Mesprit, Azelf MT) meant to do high damage and disrupt as much as possible. I rarely even donk people that often; it's normally a played out game. I chose to make my deck have better late game play (4 energies, flowershop, thick Cyrus line) on purpose so that if I couldn't donk then I would stand a chance. Besides, if I donk someone, I'll try to play them again later.

@Raen
I don't ignore the other player. I see people looking mad at me after donking sometimes. It does suck; I won't argue that. And Beedrill G was a deck I played last year when I didn't care about donks and LOVED the solitaire-esque feel to it. I played it and played it for hours a day; buying the necessary cards, even traded for a Luxray X. I don't think it's fun donking people; but that's how I choose to win.

What is your definition of "play" and "fun"?

My definition of "play" and "fun"? I can't easily just give a definition, but I'll do my best to explain myself.

If I'm having fun, I'm enjoying myself. Yes, when I'm the donker, I suppose you could say I'm having fun. I won, at least, and it's hard to not like winning, especially on a day when you are doing quite well. The other person probably isn't having fun at that point, though. They didn't get to attempt to counter me. They didn't get to play the game out. They didn't get to show off their deck and their strategy. They lost. None of that is fun for them. Sure, overall they could have fun over the course of the tournament, but for that game at least, they weren't having fun.

Now, you could say that it's the loss and the loss only that is what stops them from having fun. That could be true; but I'd say it isn't always true, or even usually true. Most people who play at tournaments lose a lot, and yet continue to come to tournaments. I assume they wouldn't do that if they weren't having fun. Even me, a more competitive player, can still have fun when losing. Am I disappointed? Sure, but that doesn't mean I didn't have any fun. For example, I remember at Cities a month ago or so I lost a Top4 match. But they were VERY enjoyable and intense games, and I enjoyed playing them. Would I rather have won? Sure, but I had fun either way. Had I got donked twice though, I would have just been frustrated and annoyed.

As for defining "play", you need at least one (I'd say many more than 1) turn where you actually do something to have actually "played" the game. If I go first and just attatch an energy, and then lose before my next turn, I didn't really get to play the game. If I get donked before I even had a turn I most certainly didn't get to play the game, and that's no fun.

 

[Kayle]

What is your definition of "play" and "fun"?

In order to PLAY a game of Pokemon (as opposed to a game of solitaire), both players need to interact. A player makes a move (attach energy use X supporter/trainers promote Luxray pass) , and then the opposing player thinks and makes a responding move (use X supporter attach energy retreat X pokemon use sand wall), and this cycle repeats itself multiple times. Credit to SLOW DECK for the idea of interaction, he said it first.

A healthy, fun game of Pokemon involves many available options, many potential moves, many different ways for the match to go - but it travels down a specific path as dictated by the approach of each individual player, by their tactics and their experience.

A donk deck violates both principles on a good day: there is no interaction, one player just opens up their whole deck and the other player sits back and watches. The match isn't any fun if the donk player is any good: the donk is made and the game is sealed (or the donk fails and no matter what the opposing player chooses they exhaust their now-decked opponent).

 

[Porii Sames]

I think this is where people are coming from:

Donk decks are bad and unfair because the opponenet has not chance to...win at all, if you pull off the donk. HOWEVER, the dokee may have the right to add in certain cards to his or her deck in order to help prevent the donker from donking the donkee. If you don't like being donked, add in Calls.

People made comments on me suggesting people to play Vilegar if they didn't like donks. Others complained and wondered why you would have to play a deck SOLELY to beat the donk decks.

It's like if your whole area is full of Gyarados? What are you going to play? Probably Luxchomp or Vilegar. Or some Absol Prime deck.

 

[Raen]

I think this is where people are coming from:

Donk decks are bad and unfair because the opponenet has not chance to...win at all, if you pull off the donk. HOWEVER, the dokee may have the right to add in certain cards to his or her deck in order to help prevent the donker from donking the donkee. If you don't like being donked, add in Calls.

People made comments on me suggesting people to play Vilegar if they didn't like donks. Others complained and wondered why you would have to play a deck SOLELY to beat the donk decks.

It's like if your whole area is full of Gyarados? What are you going to play? Probably Luxchomp or Vilegar. Or some Absol Prime deck.

People have said, many, many times that adding 4 Calls does NOT stop you from being donked. You only have an approx. 40% chance of even starting with it, and even then, it's possibly, especially with Seeker around now, to be donked even if you have 3 basics out. Not only that, but some decks don't make good use of Call (like, say, Donphan or Machamp), and overall, if a game plays out, some decks will actually be hurt by the inclusion of call (for example, Gyarados doesn't have the room).

You've also mentioned Spiritomb, which simply does not work in many decks. Gyarados? Too trainer heavy to use it. Same for basically all SP decks. Plus, you can still be donked with a Spiritomb start; it's unlikely, but happens.

So yes, these things may reduce the chance of being donked, but donks still happen, and frequently in this format.

 

[Porii Sames]

I think I'll repeat what I've said at least 5 times in this thread

NOTHING CAN PREVENT DONKS; BUT SOME STUFF HELPS YOU TO NOT GET DONKED AS MUCH.

I don't understand why people can't read english. I am not claiming that if you put in calls that you will not get donked. WHERE DID I SAY THAT??? It HELPS because if you do start with it, then you can Call and hopefully reduce the chances of you getting donked.

I'm not saying add in Spiritomb to decks. If people don't want to get donked, they should do it. I think it's stupid.

 

[Kayle]

I think this is where people are coming from:

Donk decks are bad and unfair because the opponenet has not chance to...win at all, if you pull off the donk. HOWEVER, the dokee may have the right to add in certain cards to his or her deck in order to help prevent the donker from donking the donkee. If you don't like being donked, add in Calls.

Derp derp we've been over this there is no singular answer to OH I DON'T WANT TO GET DONKED.

Stop even bringing this up. It's not productive. Focus on the real point.

People made comments on me suggesting people to play Vilegar if they didn't like donks. Others complained and wondered why you would have to play a deck SOLELY to beat the donk decks.

It's like if your whole area is full of Gyarados? What are you going to play? Probably Luxchomp or Vilegar. Or some Absol Prime deck.

Again you are deflecting the wrong point. I didn't say anything at all about metagame, I didn't say anything about how my deck choice is restricted by donk decks, no one's metagame is full of donk decks. I am concerned with those six or seven people whose days get ruined by that one kid who ran a successful donk variant, because they were shot out of top cut by a deck that was absolutely zero fun to play against.

If you can provide a compelling argument that tells me that playing and losing against donk decks actually can be just as fun as any other game and thus is not a waste of either players' time then you will be much closer to the right track.

 

[poinko]

I think maybe people are forgetting that building donk decks are a strategy. A strategy that is based a whole lot on luck, but it's still a strategy nonetheless, and that's basically how Pokemon works. There are attacks like this is Pokemon, where your Pokemon has to go all in, and take a chance with a super-risky attack. The deck built to donk is simply a TCG version of that.

If you get donked, it doesn't mean the other player has no skill, and just got incredibly lucky. It just happens; it's part of the game. At a City Championship last weekend, I lost my 2nd round to a player who was just starting to play. I got a bad start, only got an Uxie and they got 2 Donphans rolling before I could get any cards that would help me. That doesn't mean that they were purely lucky; they knew how to play their deck and they played as well as they were able to. 2 rounds later I went toe-to-toe with Gyarados/Donphan and won, despite it being my deck's weakness. It's just going to happen, and short of banning every card that does more than 20 damage for 1 or 0 energy and giving every Pokemon 80+ HP, it's going to keep happening.

Even if a player was able to call a mulligan because they only have a single basic, the chance they'll redraw and only get one basic again is still there. Are you going to let players continually shuffle until they get the setup they want? If you institute a max number of mulligans is t still fair if they still only get one Pokemon on their last reshuffle?

I don't like playing archetype decks. I go rogue whenever possible, I think playing SP is just playing on autopilot, and getting whipped in three turns isn't really my idea of a good game. I think outside of one or two very specific conditions, going first is extremely detrimental to most players. But that's just the nature of Pokemon. There are always decks that you are not going to want to play against, and you'll have to play against them in tournaments. What do you do? Tech your deck against them. Donks aren't going away, and if POP were able to ban donks outright, some other style of deck will take its place.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that the Pokemon playing field is quite possibly the most diverse it's ever been. This is a really good thing, and based on what's coming out, it's going to really open up after the next rotation. Donks won't be as big of a problem, but there will always be something to take its place.

One last thing: It does suck if you get donked in a tournament, but imagine how the other player feels when you declare 'you only won cos you donked me'. The other player probably wanted a long battle, wit clashing against razor-sharp wit, but if the opportunity arises, especially in a tournament, you're going to tell me you wouldn't go for it? At the end of the day, Pokemon IS just a game after all.

 

[Raen]

I think I'll repeat what I've said at least 5 times in this thread

NOTHING CAN PREVENT DONKS; BUT SOME STUFF HELPS YOU TO NOT GET DONKED AS MUCH.

I don't understand why people can't read english. I am not claiming that if you put in calls that you will not get donked. WHERE DID I SAY THAT??? It HELPS because if you do start with it, then you can Call and hopefully reduce the chances of you getting donked.

I'm not saying add in Spiritomb to decks. If people don't want to get donked, they should do it. I think it's stupid.

You also keep using the same arguments that have been rebuffed. In fact, I've noticed these discussion go in endless circles anyway. It's clear that neither of us are going to convince the other of anything.

Anyway, I agree Calls and such can help, but that still doesn't get to the root of the problem, since even with that stuff being donked is too common. What people are really trying to get at is that donks should be eliminated/reduced to being a very rare occurance.

 

[Porii Sames]

I never said playing against donk decks was fun at all. There is no reason for that.

I am saying that for those 6 or 7 players, they should have prepared better. Maybe ran some more Calls, maybe played Vilegar if they were concerned, maybe played a couple of Smeargles over Sableye in Gyarados, etc.

Getting donked sucks. I agree with this completely; and I'm not going to dodge it at all.

 

[Raen]

I never said playing against donk decks was fun at all. There is no reason for that.

I am saying that for those 6 or 7 players, they should have prepared better. Maybe ran some more Calls, maybe played Vilegar if they were concerned, maybe played a couple of Smeargles over Sableye in Gyarados, etc.

Getting donked sucks. I agree with this completely; and I'm not going to dodge it at all.

Would you agree then that the game would be better off if donks were far less common?

That's all this discussion really should be about, if we get down to it. People can say everything they want, but the real question comes down to: Would people enjoy the game more with less donks? That's all that really needs to be asked and answered. For me, yes, I would like the game more with less donking.

 

[Porii Sames]

I think maybe people are forgetting that building donk decks are a strategy. A strategy that is based a whole lot on luck, but it's still a strategy nonetheless, and that's basically how Pokemon works. There are attacks like this is Pokemon, where your Pokemon has to go all in, and take a chance with a super-risky attack. The deck built to donk is simply a TCG version of that.

If you get donked, it doesn't mean the other player has no skill, and just got incredibly lucky. It just happens; it's part of the game. At a City Championship last weekend, I lost my 2nd round to a player who was just starting to play. I got a bad start, only got an Uxie and they got 2 Donphans rolling before I could get any cards that would help me. That doesn't mean that they were purely lucky; they knew how to play their deck and they played as well as they were able to. 2 rounds later I went toe-to-toe with Gyarados/Donphan and won, despite it being my deck's weakness. It's just going to happen, and short of banning every card that does more than 20 damage for 1 or 0 energy and giving every Pokemon 80+ HP, it's going to keep happening.

Even if a player was able to call a mulligan because they only have a single basic, the chance they'll redraw and only get one basic again is still there. Are you going to let players continually shuffle until they get the setup they want? If you institute a max number of mulligans is t still fair if they still only get one Pokemon on their last reshuffle?

I don't like playing archetype decks. I go rogue whenever possible, I think playing SP is just playing on autopilot, and getting whipped in three turns isn't really my idea of a good game. I think outside of one or two very specific conditions, going first is extremely detrimental to most players. But that's just the nature of Pokemon. There are always decks that you are not going to want to play against, and you'll have to play against them in tournaments. What do you do? Tech your deck against them. Donks aren't going away, and if POP were able to ban donks outright, some other style of deck will take its place.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that the Pokemon playing field is quite possibly the most diverse it's ever been. This is a really good thing, and based on what's coming out, it's going to really open up after the next rotation. Donks won't be as big of a problem, but there will always be something to take its place.

One last thing: It does suck if you get donked in a tournament, but imagine how the other player feels when you declare 'you only won cos you donked me'. The other player probably wanted a long battle, wit clashing against razor-sharp wit, but if the opportunity arises, especially in a tournament, you're going to tell me you wouldn't go for it? At the end of the day, Pokemon IS just a game after all.

I agree with this post a lot.

As I've said before, I would much rather play out a long, thought out game and win that donk someone.

---------- Post added 12/22/2010 at 01:37 AM ----------

Would you agree then that the game would be better off if donks were far less common?

That's all this discussion really should be about, if we get down to it. People can say everything they want, but the real question comes down to: Would people enjoy the game more with less donks? That's all that really needs to be asked and answered. For me, yes, I would like the game more with less donking.

Meh, it's a game mechanic I mean. Plus, it kinda goes against the rules of Pokemon. "I have no Pokemon left" kind of thing.

The new rules will be kind to donk decks. Trainer cards 1st turn? Yes please!

 

[Raen]

I agree with this post a lot.

As I've said before, I would much rather play out a long, thought out game and win that donk someone.

Then why is this discussion taking place? It's a completely pointless argument. You do, in fact, AGREE that it's better for donks to be less common (my words, not yours, correct me if I'm wrong). Yet you adamantly defend them, and I'm rather confused at the purpose of it all.

 

[Kayle]

I am saying that for those 6 or 7 players, they should have prepared better. Maybe ran some more Calls, maybe played Vilegar if they were concerned, maybe played a couple of Smeargles over Sableye in Gyarados, etc.

In a practical sense, you're right. If you don't want to be donked you should be playing something ridiculously inconsistent that will lose you 90% of your other games but will win you the donk match. Any change minor enough to not hurt consistency will be meaningless to the donk match, but any change major enough to improve the donk match will slaughter consistency; this is a statistical fact and is not going to change.

So then you would say that these six or seven people are victims of the format, I guess? They are faced with an unfortunate choice: take the loss to donks and play a legitimate deck that SHOULD win them the rest of the tournament (assuming they miss the donk decks), or play something illegitimate but be able to win the unfun donk matchup.

That is what we're complaining about here! No one should have to make that choice! I said this a while back; if I mispredict the metagame and walk into a tournament full of Gyarados playing Machamp, I still have a shot at doing well. Not a great one mind you, but I still do have a shot, and at the very least I can still play several great, REALLY fun games of Pokemon! If I walk into a donk deck tournament, though, I have to play something stupid and inconsistent or face loads of quick, unfun, pointless games.

That is the bone I pick.

Edit: Raen, thank you so much for picking that out of his argument, I have been waiting for him to say it for a LONG time...