Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Ban List - Which Cards?

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Vileplume is bad for the game. Its like making a Pokemon that says you can't play Pokemon. All it does is let other powerful cards be even more powerful.

Give some real examples of why Vileplume is bad, because this isn't the first time we've had serious trainer lock. And not the first time we've seen it from the bench either. Houndoom UF? Nobody cried then. Sure, Doom had the drawback of having to have less pokes in play, but Plume has the downside of a 2 retreat, being a stage two, a horrible attack, and weakness to a common tech.

Vileplume has far more counters than SP or Gyarados do. It's prone to getting dragged up, shot in the face, or turned off by a 1-1 Dialga.

Vileplume can be played around. Losing on t1 can't. And if you can't (or maybe won't) at least build your deck so it doesn't autolose when it hits the field, you're (general you) bad, and deserve the loss.

Also, what would those other powerful cards be? Gengar? Guess what, pal. Gengar STILL doesn't autowin the SP game even WITH Vileplume. If it's Dialga? You're in for a rough ride. Without Vileplume, there'd be nothing to even stand in the way of Gyarados or SP. And hell, Gyarados doesn't even autolose to it. In fact, MewDos has at least a 50-50 to Vilegar, and Gyarados can play around Plume in the Vilechamp game.

If you're seriously trying to say that Vileplume hurts the game more than Uxie and Crobat G (and you are, since you said to errata those and ban Vileplume), then... I don't even know. You must not playtest much in that case.

Oh, and it only takes one five to seven card Set Up to donk. So maybe you should add Uxie to that "realistic" ban list of yours. ; x

---------- Post added 04/21/2011 at 10:31 PM ----------

Actually, I'd argue that by playing Vileplume, they do want to play the game. Vileplume prevents stupid shenanigans and slowly turns it back into a game of skill VS LOLOLOL, SETUP, PLAY TRAINERS, SETUP, ROFLZ.
 
Houndoom could work for a turn or 2 but its easy and was easy to reduce your field to turn it off. I play test a lot so I can say these thing. The fact is that I DONT PLAY META. I'd hate to see a ban on any card but when cards are too powerful, like the one I posted above, they need to be banned or at least errated. Vileplume needs to go because no benchsitter should have a effect like that. Does not matter if it has 2 energy retreat cost. People can use Warp Energy it or just set another one up and what then? Draging up 1 plume does nothing when there are 1 or 2 more benched.

What decks do we see right not

Luxchomp
Sabledonk
GDos
Vileplume variants
Diaglachomp

This is whats wrong with this game right now. Decks like those. The game needs to back the way it was, you know when skill mattered.
 
You guys wanting Vileplume to be banned just dilute the message against Sableye, Crobat, and Uxie. Ban/restrict these three, and the season is saved - nothing more or less.
 
Houndoom could work for a turn or 2 but its easy and was easy to reduce your field to turn it off. I play test a lot so I can say these thing. The fact is that I DONT PLAY META. I'd hate to see a ban on any card but when cards are too powerful, like the one I posted above, they need to be banned or at least errated. Vileplume needs to go because no benchsitter should have a effect like that. Does not matter if it has 2 energy retreat cost. People can use Warp Energy it or just set another one up and what then? Draging up 1 plume does nothing when there are 1 or 2 more benched.

What decks do we see right not

Luxchomp
Sabledonk
GDos
Vileplume variants
Diaglachomp

This is whats wrong with this game right now. Decks like those. The game needs to back the way it was, you know when skill mattered.

You need to go read some regionals reports.

The amount of DIVERSITY is MUCH larger than people give it credit for. I've read reports about MegaZone, Magnegatr, Lanturn, and many, many other things.

Also, I played a very good North Texas player Sablock vs. Dchomp the other day. The amount of skill that entire match was amazing, and I couldn't believe that neither of us misplayed. He needed some serious skill, and a bit of luck, to win that match. Also, getting the right list is just as hard as playing it. Ever tried to make a good Dchomp? Luxchomp? Sablock? Dos? I've talked and gotten help from many good players while trying to make good lists, and my Sablock has gotten to be a near-perfect SP counter imo.
 
Your right, I should read some. I might not even play any of these decks. I also know what its like to make the perfect list. Its why my Leafeon deck is not done after 5 months of working on it. We should play some Redshard just so you see I'm not all talk.

I do stand strong about how I feel about those cards.
 
Houndoom could work for a turn or 2 but its easy and was easy to reduce your field to turn it off. I play test a lot so I can say these thing. The fact is that I DONT PLAY META. I'd hate to see a ban on any card but when cards are too powerful, like the one I posted above, they need to be banned or at least errated. Vileplume needs to go because no benchsitter should have a effect like that. Does not matter if it has 2 energy retreat cost. People can use Warp Energy it or just set another one up and what then? Draging up 1 plume does nothing when there are 1 or 2 more benched.

What decks do we see right not

Luxchomp
Sabledonk
GDos
Vileplume variants
Diaglachomp

This is whats wrong with this game right now. Decks like those. The game needs to back the way it was, you know when skill mattered.

I literally lol'ed when I saw this post. Houndoom, for one, was hard to turn off. Most decks back in those days needed a fairly good sized bench to actually work. I don't see how Vileplume is anywhere near bad for the game when you have things that can get off the ground by turn one dealing ninety damage. Or, a deck that was given an engine that no other deck could use, along with two basics that had Level X's with absurd powers/attacks.

Out of all the decks you listed, Vileplume variants are the last thing that need to be wrecked by a ban on Vileplume. You ban Vileplume, and speed decks now have this new lease on life. They no longer have to worry about Spiritomb, and therefore, can play trainers without any sort of ramifications. Vileplume tries to at least counter the speed of the format by slowing other things down, and make people think about their deck builds. You ban Vileplume, and everyone can just throw absurd amounts of trainers in their decks and not have to worry a single bit. Spiritomb can't do the job well enough on its own, it just doesn't last long enough, especially with Luxray GL LV. X in the format, or Dialga G LV. X.

Vileplume also has the worry of being dragged up without ways of getting back to the bench. And, if it's knocked out, the trainer lock deck using Vileplume has to scramble to build Vileplume back up. Meanwhile, the opposing deck gets to take advantage of that. With two retreat, a bad weakness, Vileplume has its counters. It's not the problem.

Whining about Vileplume trainer locking decks, you may as well whine about all the other different forms of lock decks that have been around. Medicham ex turned off powers, so what if it had to be active? That was huge when it released, but, the format survived. Houndoom locked trainers for the opponent, and decks like Banette/Houndoom, Medicham/Houndoom saw rise. Still, there wasn't a problem.

So, tell me, what exactly is wrong with Vileplume? Yeah, it has a pretty nice body. It's able to lock trainers from the bench. But, you have the ability to at least play the game with it. Sabledonk might not even let you have a turn, which is nothing short of absurd. LuxChomp has been nothing short of absurd with the broken powers and attacks given to basics, and the ability of utterly ABUSING Double Colorless Energy. Gyarados being able to hit for anywhere between 90 to 110 damage for no energy is absurd. Thing is, both LuxChomp and Gyarados get up by t2 and swinging. Without Vileplume to try and balance the two, this format might actually be WORSE. Hard to believe, huh?
 
Pokemon is best played slowly. The best formats in the history of this game have been slow formats. Slow formats allow for "bad" cards to become good. Like Delta Salamence. Like Delta Dragonite. Like DP Electivire. None of these cards would win in this format. Why? Because they're too slow and hit for lower damage than what we're currently used to. But, in the format that they were in, they were fantastic. I can easily remember formats where there were upwards of 20 decks winning multiple City Championships. The common link between those formats? We actually played for the entire 30 minute round. There were few, if any, turn 1 kills. The word Donk existed, but it had a completely different meaning at the time. I PINE for the days when a 3 turn setup was considered fast. I PINE for the days when 4 for 120, discard 3 was considered a fantastic attack. Vileplume at least gives me the chance of playing the types of decks, the types of GAMES, that made this game so great to begin with.
 
I understand that but plume goes about it the wrong way. Its the fact that its a bench sitter that prevents play. When I played, there were not many cards that prevented play on a huge level like that. If there were, it was so EX Pokemon could not attack, a supporter could not be used and even still, those Pokemon had to be active, so they were not hard to deal with. There were not cards that stop games on a huge level like Vileplume does.

I guess I would not mind a slower format but not one made because of play prevention.

---------- Post added 04/22/2011 at 01:57 PM ----------

Soooo slow game = yugioh........are you a troll?? Regs felt like yugioh, slow format opposite lol.

Yugioh banned cards that prevented play to help keep the game healthy.
 
Yugioh banned cards that prevented play to help keep the game healthy.

Yugioh has a huge ban list and has got to be one of the most around-the-clock broken TCGs out there. Pokemon is nowhere near Yugioh in terms of gameplay problems. I'm sure TPCi takes pride that their game doesn't have such a problem, and if they had to ban a card, it would tarnish that image. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd rather take negative feedback from their players for a few months than any negative press from admitting they made a bad call by the act of banning a card.
 
I agree with Vaporeon on his logic. Houndoom disrupted only your opponent, not you as well. It had a counter in the "Lati-Lock", that canceled it's body. What counter does Vileplume have? Dialga G? Well that isn't going to be around next format. Vileplume even has a card in Spiritomb that helps it start the lock early in two ways. Earlier in the game since it's a basic and it's a pretty good starter.

I think a lot of players can agree with me on this one. For the last couple years, and the next couple to come Pokemon will be at it's all time low as far as formats go. Since GG hit the scheme it has made players side to choose a side: GG or counter, Sp or not. In the next coming formats I see: LostGar or lose and/or Vileplume/Spiritomb or get locked unwilling.
 
You guys wanting Vileplume to be banned just dilute the message against Sableye, Crobat, and Uxie. Ban/restrict these three, and the season is saved - nothing more or less.

So let's play Theorymon then. With the release of B/W and that set of rules implemented, then we ban said cards Sableye, Crobat and Uxie. What then? In your opinon, what does the Metagame look like then?
 
Pokemon is best played slowly. The best formats in the history of this game have been slow formats. Slow formats allow for "bad" cards to become good. Like Delta Salamence. Like Delta Dragonite. Like DP Electivire. None of these cards would win in this format. Why? Because they're too slow and hit for lower damage than what we're currently used to. But, in the format that they were in, they were fantastic. I can easily remember formats where there were upwards of 20 decks winning multiple City Championships. The common link between those formats? We actually played for the entire 30 minute round. There were few, if any, turn 1 kills. The word Donk existed, but it had a completely different meaning at the time. I PINE for the days when a 3 turn setup was considered fast. I PINE for the days when 4 for 120, discard 3 was considered a fantastic attack. Vileplume at least gives me the chance of playing the types of decks, the types of GAMES, that made this game so great to begin with.

In addition, if anything WAS that good, it was balanced by the fact that it was EX and awarded 2 prizes. For example, we had Banette EX which was very fast and could hit hard... but it only had 90 HP and was EX. Other fast attackers that hit as early as the second turn didn't do nearly as much damage but they still were subject to the EX rule (I can think of the Eeveelution EXs, Manectric EX, Medicham EX, and Arcanine EX off the top of my head).

There were also fast hitters like Raichu delta (which could do 80 as early as T2 with a DCE), and Exeguttor delta (which could also do 70 on T2), but they had pretty low HP compared to the rest of the format and they still usually needed support from a Castform start in order to endure until late game. The there was Ariados (UF) which could hit hard and fast but only had 70 HP. Now we have Stage 1's that can hit for no energy and have 130~ HP lol.

vaporeon said:
I understand that but plume goes about it the wrong way. Its the fact that its a bench sitter that prevents play. When I played, there were not many cards that prevented play on a huge level like that. If there were, it was so EX Pokemon could not attack, a supporter could not be used and even still, those Pokemon had to be active, so they were not hard to deal with. There were not cards that stop games on a huge level like Vileplume does.

I guess I would not mind a slower format but not one made because of play prevention.

Play prevention has always been part of the game... In the early days we had Muk and Dark Vileplume, in more recent times we had Manectric EX, Vileplume EX, Medicham EX, Houndoom (UF), Dragonite EX delta, Gardevoir EX delta, Cessation Crystal, Crystal Beach), LatiLock, Dusknoir (DP), Gardevoir SW, and I probably don't need to go into today's format. I can't think of a format in the past 5 years that I've been playing in which everything works... a format has always presented obstacles to any deck. It's just been poorly executed in the past 2 years.

I understand what you're saying in that Vileplume is never active, but unlike the list of cards I just mentioned... it's not a very viable attacker. Thus, most decks have to dedicate around 6 slots to a Vileplume line anyways just to make it work, and they still have to build their main attacker when they set up. Something like Gardy/Gallade and Mew/Manectric had their lock all set because their locking mechanism was attached to their attacking Pokemon.

---------- Post added 04/23/2011 at 12:05 AM ----------

I agree with Vaporeon on his logic. Houndoom disrupted only your opponent, not you as well. It had a counter in the "Lati-Lock", that canceled it's body. What counter does Vileplume have? Dialga G? Well that isn't going to be around next format. Vileplume even has a card in Spiritomb that helps it start the lock early in two ways. Earlier in the game since it's a basic and it's a pretty good starter.

I think a lot of players can agree with me on this one. For the last couple years, and the next couple to come Pokemon will be at it's all time low as far as formats go. Since GG hit the scheme it has made players side to choose a side: GG or counter, Sp or not. In the next coming formats I see: LostGar or lose and/or Vileplume/Spiritomb or get locked unwilling.

Houndoom made you play with hardly any bench... >.> It came at a cost. Plus you could play Space Center or w/e it was called to shut off LatiLock.

And I would agree with you on Vileplume, but we still don't know what our next format is nor do we know what's in any upcoming sets. It's pointless to speculate how dominant Vileplume might be at the moment. PL-on, RR-on, SV-on, AR-on, and HGSS-on all create entirely different environments for Vileplume.
 
Play prevention has always been part of the game... In the early days we had Muk and Dark Vileplume, in more recent times we had Manectric EX, Vileplume EX, Medicham EX, Houndoom (UF), Dragonite EX delta, Gardevoir EX delta, Cessation Crystal, Crystal Beach), LatiLock, Dusknoir (DP), Gardevoir SW, and I probably don't need to go into today's format. I can't think of a format in the past 5 years that I've been playing in which everything works... a format has always presented obstacles to any deck. It's just been poorly executed in the past 2 years.

I understand what you're saying in that Vileplume is never active, but unlike the list of cards I just mentioned... it's not a very viable attacker. Thus, most decks have to dedicate around 6 slots to a Vileplume line anyways just to make it work, and they still have to build their main attacker when they set up. Something like Gardy/Gallade and Mew/Manectric had their lock all set because their locking mechanism was attached to their attacking Pokemon.

A lot of those blockers had counters:
Dragonite Ex Detla - was never really good to begin with. So many people try to make it work since it was right after Mewtric won Worlds, but it just couldn't be "broken".

Houndoom (UF) - Cessation Crystal, Lati-lock or keep a small bench.

Medicham Ex - As you stated, it was an Ex so it had it's draw back of giving 2 prizes when KOed.

Cessation Crystal - Windstorm. But again was in a format that pretty much made you choose to either run Windstorm or a Cessation Crystal deck.

Dusknoir (D/P) - It's locking power didn't kill your opponent, it was kind of like Houndoom as it only restricted your opponent but within limits. It lost a lot of play once SP/P. Spray hit the scheme and stadiums weren't as big any more.

Then as you also mentioned G/G was just stupidly broken. Mewtric required a lot of skill to play, it was like the DialgaChomp of it's format. No random player could just make a list and go to tournament and expect to do well. It had few good matches, but few bad ones as well.

Locking is a part of this game, and a good one but as long as it's not broken. An example of this is Hariyama Ex locked your stadium and disrupted even more by discarding cards fro your hand, but it wasn't broken, it never really got into being a Tier 1 deck, but never lower than a lower Tier 2 deck. G/G was broken, Slowking was broken, Luxchomp is broken (it locks you from setting anything up as it removes your energy from play). I wasn't around in the beginning when Haymaker was around but I consider Luxchomp a faster, meaner Haymaker. It has the same tools, some even combined into one. Energy Removal/Gust of Wind into Luxray. As it's a good fast attacker being able to KO low HP Pokemon and remove your opponents energy from play.

Houndoom made you play with hardly any bench... >.> It came at a cost. Plus you could play Space Center or w/e it was called to shut off LatiLock.

And I would agree with you on Vileplume, but we still don't know what our next format is nor do we know what's in any upcoming sets. It's pointless to speculate how dominant Vileplume might be at the moment. PL-on, RR-on, SV-on, AR-on, and HGSS-on all create entirely different environments for Vileplume.

No one played that stadium, NO ONE. It was in the Cessation Crystal format, and like I mentioned before it was a format of almost none existent stadiums.

So far in spoiler for the next set for B/W sets we don't have anything else that shut off bodies. So it'll be until CC until we POSSIBLY might see something that does. Even if they do print something that shuts off bodies, we still have to worry about LostGar's dominance, :/.

Sorry if we go off topic with some of our discussions, but they do tie into the initial argument. We went from banning broken cards, to banning Vileplume, to how lock affects metagames, broken cards affect Metagames is the core discussion of the thread. So please don't accuse us of trolling.
 
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No one played that stadium, NO ONE. It was in the Cessation Crystal format, and like I mentioned before it was a format of almost none existent stadiums.

space center was also good vs lunatone/solrock don't forget! play 1 in infernape or you lose to rambolt j/s... also that format had crystal beach, cursed stone, and giant stump.... non existant stadiums chris???





edit: ON TOPIC: BAN LIST: uxie, sableye, vileplume or spiritomb, errata seeker
 
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