Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Black and White Rules in Reguards to Naitonals

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Its not quite that easy....

I dont need to attack t1 to win a game.

4 bats, 40 damage
4 turns 40 damage
4 junk arm, 40 damage
4 SSU, possible 40 damage
4 Pokeblower+, possible 40 damage
4-4-4 Kingdra line, 40 damage
1 seeker, 10 damage
spiritomb (psychic) up to 60 damage

As you can see damage output can still be considerable. The above suggestion could net from 180 damage up to 310 damage. All this without attacking. (I think I just accidentally built a deck) How many basics you gonna lay in your first turn to prevent me from benching you.

So your simple theory does not, in fact, solve the problem.

Jimmy

Well, Actually it does solve maybe not everything, but somethings. Apparently people are worried about the two support thing more then the Donk(According to this thread). Even without attacking, obviously your still hitting crazy high amounts of damage with Bats, Kingdra etc, but then again, Spiritomb would ruin that (assuming you cant attack First turn).
 
Official Guide to Becoming National Champion:

1. Sabeleye
2. Attach Dark Energy
3. Use Trainers to spam Flash Bite
4. Use Seeker if necessary
5. Overconfident

Do this about 15 times.
 
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Of course that also doesn't account for throwing in a 1-1-1 line of Kingdra Prime to do another 10 damage if you have the bench space (which really, at this point you shouldn't). It'd be an extremely clunky tech, but I could totally see a league kid trying to pull it off.

A card that has been surprisingly overlooked is Unown !, put him on the bench and flip a coin. If heads put 2 damage counters on a pokémon thats on the opponents side of the field if tails put 2 damage counters on a pokémon that on your side of the field. The side effects of the power won't matter much since you'll be pokéturning Crobat G.

To be honest, players that truly have respect for the game like you and I will never play Donk dex for nats. So the Little I meant was the bunch of ridiculous noobs who have no respect for a good game.

Your statement is fine with the current Uxie Donk in our format, as its a bad play with Vilegar and if you're unlucky enough to win the coin flip against most other decks. This is why its not favoured by the current top players.

However, Sabledonk is a different animal, Even if your run 4 Spiritomb, call energy, Sableye, Collector, Bebe's, 2,2,2 Vileplume line and a 12 other random basics. You're still likely to frequently experience T1 Donks before you even get to draw. This is because on average you'll start with 2-3 basics. Obviously you'll almost certainly avoid a donk if you go first yourself, but Sabledonk's strategy relies on going first or scooping. Assuming the other player doesn't run Sableye you'll start with him about 45% of the time and force yourself to go first. If you don't you could still win the flip and go first. Overall Sabledonk will have a 70% chance of going first and 9/10 times will get the donk, which equates to a 2/3 success rate. If you ignore the whole "honour" and "respect" agenda that exists among rogue and elite players. Assuming a player goes to nationals with the intention of trying to win, then its hard to argue against the decks viabilty. Espeacially when techs like Unown Dark, Pokémon Collector and Regice can be used to counter Spiritomb starts.
 
Be carefull, if we get a SF-on rotation it will take another year.
Can you imagine one more season with Gengar/Machamp/Luxray/Garchomp/Gyarados around?

I can and it's giving me nightmares.
Like if 3 years of hearing Fainting spell wasn't enough and 2 years of Bright Look.:mad:

While I doubt it will be an SF-on format, that would still be an utter nightmare. If this happens, I would completely lose any respect for P!P and likely go back to Magic.
 
To be honest, players that truly have respect for the game like you and I will never play Donk dex for nats. So the Little I meant was the bunch of ridiculous noobs who have no respect for a good game.

I disagree completely. Your only obligation to your opponent and to the game is to play within the rules and to maintain the spirit of the game. We don't define the format, Pokemon does that for us. If they allow for a format wherein donk decks are the way to earn a National Championship, the player base should not have to feel shame for taking advantage of this.

This is my first full season of Pokemon; I began playing just over a year ago. I've worked hard on my lists, attended a ton of events, and tested my butt off against my friends, and that sought-after 1850 rating is almost within my grasp. Why should I punish myself and negate the work I've done if Pokemon decides to implement rules that make it possible for a donk deck to be the best deck in format? I love the game, and I hope they mid-season rotate or ban Sableye or Uxie or do ANYTHING that will prevent the donkfest. But if they choose not to, and a donk deck is truly the best play for Nats or Worlds, I'm not going to hang my head in shame for using it. I'm not going to go to war with nothing but a knife simply because someone feels fighter planes aren't fair or respectful.
 
While I understand that you have a different opinion, my point is that people play pokemon to have fun, and playing against a player who builds a deck made soley to not even let you play a turn not only makes the player you t1ed feel terrible, but also doesnt further your skill as a player.
 
While I doubt it will be an SF-on format, that would still be an utter nightmare. If this happens, I would completely lose any respect for P!P and likely go back to Magic.

Did you play that new launched online game.
That game that's made to learn new player how to play?

As far I could see SF is in there and I played all 3 decks out to the triple final even twice.
Why would you launch a new game and use cards in it which (we expect) are going to rotate?
Old cards which aren't sold anywere anymore for a long time.
Makes no sense to me?

I have no clue if the current version is the final one, but I would never have taken such old set to teach upcoming players this game. But that's me.

Good think, while SF is used in that online game I didn't play against a Sabledonk:biggrin:
 
Be carefull, if we get a SF-on rotation it will take another year.
Can you imagine one more season with Gengar/Machamp/Luxray/Garchomp/Gyarados around?

I can and it's giving me nightmares.
Like if 3 years of hearing Fainting spell wasn't enough and 2 years of Bright Look.:mad:

I cant imagine it because Id quit if this would happen. I havent played much this season anyway and Im only staying because I hope it will get better. And everyone here is fed up with sp, even the seniors. Everyone I talk to is tired of it and a lot of people would quit, Im sure. Thats not even supposed to be a "do this or ill quit" QQ, only what Im observing.
 
SF-on? Lol REALLY?
You think they would only rotate 2 sets when this is the most complained-over format ever?
 
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"Theyd never do something as stupid as md-on leaving us with gengar/machamp without unown g and robbing every deck except sp of their engine, sp is too good anyway and md on would destroy anythign that beats sp."

sounds familiar?
 
Formats wax and wane, the game changes, the players change with it or quit. Magic's metagame right now is only diverse on the surface. As yoshi posted, I do remember all the backlash against the MD-On format, and the legion of people that complained about Gardevoir. I've played card games long enough to have seen the cycle from the rise and fall of metagames and archetypes and the constant factor tends to be a type of hindsight bias. Everyone talks about how awesome last format, or the format before was now. When we were in that format, the same type of 'this format sucks/is boring/is fail/no variety/ insert your favorite excuse here', is always present. Last year everyone was "sick of claydol", this year everyone is "sick of luxray", next year everyone will be "sick of whatever is successful".

A defined metagame opens the door to talented deck design. When you can predict that you will face SP variants, Vilegar, Gyarados etc, you can tune your red blush deck to take advantage of gaps in the top decks.

Maybe metagame analysis hasn't hit its renaissance yet in pokemon as it had in magic. I remember ten years ago, there was a magic site that hosted articles that taught you about advanced ways of approaching the game. (Psylum Inc's the Dojo - commonly thought to be the spark that lead to the "netdecking" phenomenon, when the DCI started revealing the winning decks from major events.)
 
We knew 2 years ago this was coming. Something needed to be done then as well.

Are donks good for the game?

I just hope something gets done this time.

Maybe we can look at this again.....
State of the game 2010

So on to the main issue….

I would like to address the T1 win potential. This is truly a sad, sad day for the game when this happens. I can understand that the creators want to speed the game to keep up with its competitors such as Magic the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh! However, it is not something that fits our game well at all. There is nothing worse than spending countless hours perfecting a deck, only to lose 3 out of 5 matches before you even get to play a card.:mad:

Please allow me to explain further. In Magic and Yu-gi-oh there is NO win condition if they have NO cards on the field. This allows for speed and can accommodate for the overall power of the cards. If there were such a win condition in those games they would not be able to survive. This is, I’m afraid, were we are heading.

It seems, as of late, PCL has made many mistakes in printing cards that are to powerful for the game. Instead of banning or errating them, they choose to make a more powerful counter to said card. While I will agree with most about the metagame being diverse, I can not agree that it’s what’s right for the game at this point. There a many underlying issues with the current metagame.

First, where is the incentive to pick up a deck and practice? Seems like just about anyone can put off the game for months, pick up (Insert Auto-Pilot Deck here) and top cut at a tournament. I’m sorry, but I can’t see how this would be GOOD for the game. Obviously I can only speak from personal experiences and am looking for some other points of view. However, there is a CLEAR separation in the opinions on the gym. Those who run (Insert Auto-Pilot Deck here) vs. those who take the time to perfect a decent deck that is meant for the longer games to gain advantages over the course of games. The flaming in such threads is absolutely terrible.

Second, PUI has graced us with 40 minute time limits only to have 25% of games ending within the first 5 minutes. I am willing to bet that most games are also decided within that same time frame, win or lose. WHY??? This should not be the case in a game that once took a high level of skill to play. I will not get into a flaming war about how much skill it takes to play in the current format as that will get us no where. I will say that auto pilot decks have made it much easier for new players and less skilled players to compete at a higher level. This is NOT a bad thing. I am sure that it helps sales and makes the game look more appealing to other gamers. This is a great marketing strategy. Not so good for experienced dedicated players.

Lastly, I am convinced that the opening coin flip determines the winner more than 75% of the time. This is evidence that something is wrong. A coin flip is supposed to give each player a 50-50 chance at winning a game. Currently this is not the case. I am going to track my battle roads and see how many games are actually determined by the opening coin flip, as well as T1 wins and post it in this thread when my results are complete. I am really looking for some statistical facts to back up my concerns about the game. Is this truly good for the game? PCL did a great job steering us away from T1 wins a few years ago. Now we are headed down that dreaded road again.

So, I think I just about covered the meat and bones of our current state of the game. Now let me lay out one thing that I feel can help ALL players. New, experienced, casual, poke-parents, and even you Vince! :biggrin: I have heard many people trying to come up with a variety of different ways to help the T1 problem. Thank you all for at least attempting to correct a problem this is quite evident.

The largest suggestion I heard was, to allow supporters on turn one of the games. While that worked for us in the past, I am not so sure this will help us in the future. While reading spoilers I noticed there were quite a few supporters that would also assist in the T1 win/loss that we are trying to avoid. I recently spoke with someone who suggested allowing each player to search out 3 pokemon from their deck. This would keep it in line with the video game by allowing you to pick your initial team of three. That one seems to have some promise.

So on to the idea I believe could increase table time for all players without increasing venue time. This idea would also allow more table time even if you took a T1 KO.

Currently the rule book states…..
You win the game if any one or more of these things occur:
• You collect all of your Prize cards (collect Prize cards as your opponent’s Pokémon are Knocked Out).
Knock Out your opponent’s last Pokémon in play.
• Your opponent is out of cards in his or her deck, when he or she goes to draw a card at the beginning of the turn.
Let’s take a look at the second bullet point. It is saying, if you cannot promote another pokemon from your bench into the active spot at the beginning of your turn, you lose the game. This is where I think we are being limited. Other games allow you to continue playing with no cards on the field and I believe it could also work here.

Here is the ruling change I would suggest to help the game.

You win the game if any one or more of these things occur:
• You collect all of your Prize cards (collect Prize cards as your opponent’s Pokémon are Knocked Out).
Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn.
• Your opponent is out of cards in his or her deck, when he or she goes to draw a card at the beginning of the turn.
Seems like a simple fix to increase playing time for all involved. This would allow new players to compete with experienced players without having a game decided by the opening coin flip. All the current rules would remain the same. No need to alter the current trainer rules, as now player one would get a chance to play the game. This is what we are looking for after all. This rule could apply throughout the entire game. Think of the options this would bring to building decks. What a fun time it would become.

So with a rule change, I have thought about how it would affect the game as a whole. There are certainly some questions that would arise with a change of that nature. I will list the ones I thought of and would be willing to talk through some I did not think about.

First, If I have no pokemon in play at the beginning of my turn and I play a Rosanne’s Research. Does one of the pokemon go DIRECTLY into the active or on the bench then promoted?

Now I am not a part of the rules team, But, I think I could handle this one…. I would have to say benching your poke FIRST would be required in order to PROMOTE it active. This would allow coming into play powers to activate prior to having it become your active.

Second, how would this affect the legendary birds? I would still think you would use them as the power states.

Lastly, If my opponent does not promote a pokemon and ends his turn, what happens??? YOU WIN!!!

Let’s face it, if player 2 takes a KO turn one, he/she is still facing a huge uphill battle. But at least it’s a battle!!! Table time increase the overall enjoyment of the game. It would also encourage people to practice, scout, and get creative with their deck choices. I want to make something very clear here…. I do not intend this to be a bashing session for players who run auto-pilot decks. There is no bashing anyone for wanting to win. It has been proven that these style of decks win tournament. Why not run them???

Please keep all replies logical and expressive as this may at some point get rolled up to the people who make these decisions.

Thank you and good luck at Nationals!!!

Jimmy
 
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While I understand that you have a different opinion, my point is that people play pokemon to have fun, and playing against a player who builds a deck made soley to not even let you play a turn not only makes the player you t1ed feel terrible, but also doesnt further your skill as a player.

I think you have to keep in mind that the majority of players attending high-level events are not playing to have fun, they're playing to win. Sure, there are those of us that go to these events looking to have a good time, but if everyone who went to Nats was going just to have a big league session, there would be so many rogue decks there that it would be impossible to beat them.

If you hate the fact that other people play a dominant deck and refuse to play it yourself because it's "cheap" you qualify as a scrub (at least according to Sirlin you would). The point of playing any game is to win, and as long as you are following the rules (even unintentionally bad ones) you shouldn't be limited to what you can do.

I'm not trying to offend you, and I'm not even advocating that I think this is the way it should be, as I think it's somewhat against the Spirit of the Game. I'm just trying to say that SableDonk will be huge because not everyone shares the opinion that the deck is cheap and shouldn't be allowed. Hopefully it won't make an overwhelming show at Nats, but I doubt very much that will be the case.
 
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Sorry, I dont see the irony.

I don't have the link for it but there was an excellent article that went into depth about what a Noob was. And one thing was that they put restrctions on themselves much like you did when you said you would never play Shuppet Donk like a noob would.

"To be honest, players that truly have respect for the game like you and I will never play Donk dex for nats. So the Little I meant was the bunch of ridiculous noobs who have no respect for a good game."
 
I don't have the link for it but there was an excellent article that went into depth about what a Noob was. And one thing was that they put restrctions on themselves much like you did when you said you would never play Shuppet Donk like a noob would.

"To be honest, players that truly have respect for the game like you and I will never play Donk dex for nats. So the Little I meant was the bunch of ridiculous noobs who have no respect for a good game."

http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80515&highlight=scrub+player

I believe that's the thread you were referring to? I also thought it was funny that his avatar was shuppet
 
RE Shop: Since that thread, I've amended my opinion. My reply in that thread, "donks are good for the game," was present tense; now, what was once a rare occurrence (pre-SP era) is now much more common (post-SP/Crobat/DCE), and so it is - again present tense - bad for the game. Still, I feel like I should explain my "donks are good" logic from back then.

As bad as donks are, everyone should remember that skill in donking is a two-way street:

*For every instance where a donk occurs in optimal playing conditions (i.e., the donker plays sufficiently well to donk, and the donked played as well as he could)...

*There are at least as many instances where a donk occurs (or didn't) in suboptimal playing conditions (i.e., the donker failed to get the win due to misplays, and/or the donked misplayed into his or her own loss)


Everyone hears "I got donked!" all the time, but we almost never hear the other side of things: we never hear about the players who did the math wrong and failed to FTKO; we never hear about players who had that high-HP Crobat or Uxie, yet chose to start Magikarp. It's these latter two instances that actually reflect skill.

I concede that at the highest levels of playing, donks are clearly and unconditionally bad, but in the grand scheme of things, they aren't all bad. Part of the reason why I did so well with Jumpluff is because I knew when and when not to start with certain cards: it's a simple principle, but you'd be surprised how many people fail to get that principle.
 
I don't have the link for it but there was an excellent article that went into depth about what a Noob was. And one thing was that they put restrctions on themselves much like you did when you said you would never play Shuppet Donk like a noob would.

"To be honest, players that truly have respect for the game like you and I will never play Donk dex for nats. So the Little I meant was the bunch of ridiculous noobs who have no respect for a good game."

I see. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'll try to restrain from making posts like that.

Sorry.
 
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