Bluffing?

[billbilski]

Well said Rob :thumb: Good form and bad form are good terms of art here. I know we all have played agst a friend in a BR or CC and joked around talking about decks, prized cards, techs for a deck etc. We arent trying to decieve, we are having fun, which is what this game is about. The "grey" area hits when you get to events and there are people that dont know you and vice versa. We may not be able to "joke" with a player that we dont know. Context may be taken the wrong way. The golden rule is appropriate here too, except some players (and you know who you are!) dont have much of a conscience and would say, do and play anyway they could to win. But, for the high majority of players, they wouldnt want the same junk pulled on them, so they dont do it either.

Keith

I agree 100%. As I said before, in my regional circle of competition I can push the envelope and no one cares. At nationals I'm as quiet as a mouse and try to be very aware of my actions. The goal is not to offend or intimidate but have fun in a slightly mischevious manner. There is a time and place for these "grey areas"and I would not include Nats or Worlds in those... I think as adults we can generally(there are exceptions hence the need for you "lawmen" lol) agree on what is reasonable between ourselves. Juniors may be a group needing a little more supervision, but from my experience they seem to do pretty well for the most part - once again there are bad apples. Since I've never seen a issue regarding this behavior come before judges... I think the whole debate is just that - debate. It's often times engaging to discuss this kind of thing, but I'm guessing most people agree on the general idea of what is "out of order". The exceptions -- Well that's why we have judges...

 

[sol de luna]

This is an interesting topic, which is going to get lots of responses from many different players. Speaking from my own personal experience with bluffing, I would advice people to not use a lot of physical distractions. Verbal cues are also a thing players should observe carefully, especially when treading on the ‘Power Spray’ topic.

For example, I recently played at a Cities tournament with an SP deck and made Top 4 cut. During one of the games, my opponent got a Claydol out and asked me the following: “Do you have a Power Spray in your hand?” In that instance, since he wasn’t declaring Claydol’s Cosmic Power, I answered with “Maybe I do, maybe I don’t.” Neither of these statements caught the attention of the judge watching us.

However, I did try my first and last physical bluff, in which I took a face-down card in my hand and sat it on the table. My idea was to cause my opponent to think it was a Power Spray (which it wasn’t) and not use Claydol’s Cosmic Power. This bluff did get my in trouble after the game finished, in which the judge warned me that I shouldn’t do that kind of gesture again. I’m not sure if that went down as a minor (or major) penalty for the finals, but I learned my lesson.

So, TL; DR version: Verbal bluffs need to be carefully looked at, especially when question (s) are being asked (i.e. power spray). Physical gestures, however, should be avoided at all costs.

 

[PokePop]

I thought it was because he had a reference for the wrong dusknoir. Like, he had a dusknoir in his deck but the reference he was using wasn't correct for the dusknoir in the deck.

Nope. He had no Dusknoir in the deck. It was a deck that often played Dusky.
The intent was to get the benefit of the opponent keeping their bench small without having to commit the deck slots to the actual cards.

 

[weavile#1]

Nope. He had no Dusknoir in the deck. It was a deck that often played Dusky.
The intent was to get the benefit of the opponent keeping their bench small without having to commit the deck slots to the actual cards.

Is that legal?

I have another question:

If a player asks if I play luxray GL X in my deck DURING THE TOURNEY BATTLE, can I lie?

 

[Phazon Elite]

Is that legal?

I have another question:

If a player asks if I play luxray GL X in my deck DURING THE TOURNEY BATTLE, can I lie?

I will literally never play in another sanctioned tournament again if the answer to that question is no (or until the "no" answer is overturned).

Whenever my opponent has the gall to ask me if I play a certain card in my deck, I almost always answer yes, regardless of how truthful I am being. Lying is the best way out of the situation. If people can't lie about what's in their deck, every game will be preceded by a game of twenty questions.

 

[Shino Bug Master]

Or you could just give them no specific and say something edgy like "You can bet on it" which causes their assumption to tilt the game play. I'd rather not lie outright to my opponent if at all possible.

Also, the Dusknoir move, while totally illegal, has got to be given some credit on a purely creative level. Most of the game stories you hear where someone cheated, they do something ridiculous like stack, take extra prizes, stall etc. Honest game > Game against Stacker/Staller <<<<<<<<< Game against kid with Dusknoir "lucky card" translation

 

[sol de luna]

Is that legal?

I have another question:

If a player asks if I play luxray GL X in my deck DURING THE TOURNEY BATTLE, can I lie?

In my opinion, I would answer them with a 'Maybe'. That way, you're not giving out the specific cards in your deck (and giving your opponent helpful information). At the same time, a neutral answer also prevents lying (which could lead to bluffing penalties). If your opponent keeps asking 'what's in your deck' questions after that, I would just ignore them or call a judge over.

 

[PokePop]

Is that legal?

I have another question:

If a player asks if I play luxray GL X in my deck DURING THE TOURNEY BATTLE, can I lie?

If you read the discussion leading up to this statement, it said he was disqualified from Worlds for this.
I think that makes it clear that this is illegal.

 

[waynegg]

I hope you see the difference here vs walking around between rds, talking to friends and others about match-ups, so and so is playing Kingdra, Y is playing Palkia lock, Z is playing Dialga tank, C is playing SP tool box, G is playing Gengar, L is playing LuxRay, etc etc etc. That is not ag'st the rules...
it is OK to see the matchups, recall that Bobby (a friend) played your oppo rd 3 and you go find Bobby and say, hey, what is ABC playing? Any techs to worry about, etc. You havent made it to the table yet to set up and influence your oppo.

Not against the rules? Where do you get that? The tournament rule book I downloaded says this:

From Section 7
Notes taken during a match may not be given to other players during the course of the tournament.

That isn't limited to just written notes. Mental notes fall in here as well.

From Section 5.2
Players who are still participating in a tournament may not watch other games still in progress, as this provides an unfair advantage to those players during later matches.

Colluding with your friends to tell them the inside track of what their opponent is playing is the exact same unfair advantage and is implicitly against the rules.


JMHO, this should really be enforced. I reported it once and was threatened with receiving a penalty if I reported it again.

 

[Jaeger]

Let me be devils advocate for a moment. Players have the right to truth in what is considered public knowledge i.e. cards played, discard pile,number of cards in hand etc.... In some cases when the game dictates it this includes hand and deck i.e. lookers or future sight. Outside of those, your hand and deck are private and card rulings have clearly shown this to be true. Opponents have no right to that information and if it is volunteered, it is in essence void of any truth or deceit and should sound like charlie browns teacher when uttered. In essence it is not recognized at all by the game unless the game says it should. In Box of Fail's situation, what a player says about his deck outside of the game's paramaters should be disregarded - it is not a required by the game to be true or false. I agree it's a cheap manuver and should be discouraged, but common sense should tell you not to believe things you are unable to prove, especially during a competative tourney against people you've never met.....My son just entered seniors and I'm certain he would blame himself in that situation and not his opponent....

I agree 100% well put

 

[billbilski]

I agree 100% well put

Logic does not trump the moral police...... It is obvious that any lie, regardless of it's impact on gameplay is what is being punished here by some. Did you brush your teeth? Are you playing luxray lvx? How many cards in your hand. Did you attach this turn? Are you for Cap and Trade? All of these require a truthful answer......I'm sorry but this kind of black and white attitude is not healthy. A lie is a lie is a lie..... I really hate moral absolutes.... If someone asks how long you have been playing and you say a couple of years and it's really like 6. Is this a DQ? Phazon - Did you read Pokepop's reply? We'll miss you buddy.......The problem is the narrow interpretation of the rules not neccessarily the rules themselves.....I'd really like to understand the official rulings here and the logic behind it

 

[waynegg]

Logic does not trump the moral police...... It is obvious that any lie, regardless of it's impact on gameplay is what is being punished here by some. Did you brush your teeth? Are you playing luxray lvx? How many cards in your hand. Did you attach this turn? Are you for Cap and Trade? All of these require a truthful answer......I'm sorry but this kind of black and white attitude is not healthy. A lie is a lie is a lie..... I really hate moral absolutes.... If someone asks how long you have been playing and you say a couple of years and it's really like 6. Is this a DQ? Phazon - Did you read Pokepop's reply? We'll miss you buddy.......The problem is the narrow interpretation of the rules not neccessarily the rules themselves.....I'd really like to understand the official rulings here and the logic behind it

Unless i missed something, you're saying that somewhere in this thread it says you have to honestly divulge the contents of your deck if your opponent asks. That's ludicrous!

If you are playing Lux GL X and your opponent asks if you are while playing them, until it is out on the field you have no obligation to tell them anything or answer them truthfully. A stupid question deserves a stupid answer. In that example, if you tell them you are truthfully or if you don't say anything they both confirm you are playing that card which isn't public knowledge.

If anything the person asking the question is gaming and deserves to receive the Game Loss penalty because it puts you in the unique position of...

tell the truth or say nothing= confirms you are playing that specific card

-or-

lie= a tough judgment that looks like would give you the GL when you eventually play the card and it only THEN becomes public knowledge

if that wasn't said then please edit this if need be.

 

[Lawman]

Not against the rules? Where do you get that? The tournament rule book I downloaded says this:

That isn't limited to just written notes. Mental notes fall in here as well.


Colluding with your friends to tell them the inside track of what their opponent is playing is the exact same unfair advantage and is implicitly against the rules.


JMHO, this should really be enforced. I reported it once and was threatened with receiving a penalty if I reported it again.

Note taking pertains to written notes.

As to the "scouting" aspect, how can we really police this?? I'm being serious. Every tourney I've judged at and the few I get to play, the top players KNOW what the others are playing w/in a few rds. How you ask? They sit next to them during the games. The players dont play in a bubble. In venues where you have room to enforce the "no loitering around" rule, they go out in the hall/other area and they start TALKING POKEMON. They will talk about the match they just played. People see/hear things. They still have to play the game. Just bc I know that my 5th rd oppo plays Bees, I still have to set up to beat it.

Keith

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

As to the "Are you playing Lux X in your deck" Q, simply refuse to answer, if you dont want to reveal anything in your deck. In fact, simply tell them that it is ag'st the rules for them to ask that Q. That usually shuts them up.

No, on the other side, when playing ag'st a friend, there may be more joshing and talking. You may play them all the time at league and know what they usually have in their deck. When they play something different, you may comment on it. They still dont have to answer though.

Keith

 

[bulbasnore]

Powder Spray vs. Power Spay vs. Power Spray

They should simply state the power, then start to use it.
The player who has spray, should be ready to spray

DFB nailed both sides of play. Do it just like that.

However, it was played differently at Worlds and maybe Nats, where the judge announcements said that the player calling the power needed to wait a 3-5 seconds, which was IMO 1) an enormous invitation to he said/she said and 2) very close to requiring a player to ask permission/coach the opponent. TO/HJ should let the players know how they're going to call Power Spray at States & Regionals.

The only statement in the official rulings is that you must say or indicate your power before its use. If you have Power Spray, you will need to, in that moment, either say "Power Spray" or "wait!". You're entitled to a moment to consider if you want to use it, especially on an unexpected Power (Baltoy, BTS, Claydol, "Cosmic Power").

On the other hand, just taking the action, with no indication or announcement, is against an official ruling. And the announcement/indication should be distinct from the action, e.g. if two players were disputing about Spray and the one had had his hand on the deck while announcing Set Up, that would be a factor in the ruling.

I have the "Right of Way" so I'm just gonna perform the effect. I'm not going to look at my opponent and wait for a reaction.

You have the right of way once you announce it. I wont for a reaction, but I will be glancing at my opponent to see if they got my communication.

Dubious Game Actions

Nope. He had no Dusknoir in the deck. It was a deck that often played Dusky. The intent was to get the benefit of the opponent keeping their bench small without having to commit the deck slots to the actual cards.

I dunno, that DQ sounds awfully lawyery to me.

OK, back to being serious: I was at ground zero of one event that prompted the rule about dubious game actions. That experience left a mark, but we learn from things like that. Don't close your mind or get all lawyery yourself on this issue. Don't think that because the seminal event involved a card that was almost put in play, that the rule doesn't apply to cards that aren't in play, other actions not involving cards, or statements made at the table about the game.

Did that Dusknoir kid learn that fake-out from some well-known person who did likewise, a judge arguing in favor of the legality of this deception on a board somewhere, a relative or elder pal who was showing him how he takes in the noobs, or just maybe he made it up on his own? I'd feel like a rat if my bravado or lawyeryness was a factor in getting that kid get DQ'd.

Talking about your strategic feint or bluff?

Don't listen to anyone arguing that a judge can't take into account your words as part of assessing sportsmanship/cheating issues.

The example 'talk' in the lead post is insignificant and not worth writing about as much as has been typed here. However, if someone says, "That's unquestionably OK and no one can touch you for that," they forget those words are potentially part of a bigger picture in assessing a penalty. Also, someone might miss the point and go too far. To repeat, it's not only unnecessary and might blow the whistle on your strategy, but also creates penalty risk.

No one is going to call a penalty on you for failing a single Premiere ball search. 'Shoot' might bring closer scrutiny, or be part of confirming a pattern, but by itself is nothing. However, if you slip and say, "Ah, my Luxray is prized," when it isn't, then you have just put your tongue in the light socket; better hope that the switch stays off. Just saying that might prompt a judge to turn on the light and take a look.

 

[waynegg]

Note taking pertains to written notes.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that it is limited to written notes. It says not to share your notes. Period.

Every tourney I've judged at and the few I get to play, the top players KNOW what the others are playing w/in a few rds. How you ask? They sit next to them during the games.

That's one thing.

In venues where you have room to enforce the "no loitering around" rule, they go out in the hall/other area and they start TALKING POKEMON. They will talk about the match they just played.

That's another.

People see/hear things.

And so do Judges

Just bc I know that my 5th rd oppo plays Bees, I still have to set up to beat it.

But knowing that, you would know, exactly and without ANY doubt, how you need to set up, giving you an unfair advantage. That's no different than any other kind of cheating.

As to the "scouting" aspect, how can we really police this?? I'm being serious.

Are you gonna catch all of it? No. No one in their right mind would expect you to, but when you hear it you should take the appropriate formal action to stop it and you surely shouldn't give permission by saying it's fine to go hit up your friend as to what your next opponent is playing. When someone reports it to you, you shouldn't threaten the person trying to do the right thing with a penalty...

Judges will never catch every person doing something shady. Some are going to get by with things such as marked sleeves, stacked decks, etc. Does that mean you turn a blind eye to the ones you do catch or are reported to you? No. The former should be handled the same way. Not asking you to go out of your way, just to act when you inevitably witness it or it is brought to your attention. It won't take long for the word to get around that it is unacceptable and it won't be near as common place.

In poker terms this is like telling your buddy that their opponent is holding a full house.

 

[Box of Fail]

Nowhere in the rules does it say that it is limited to written notes. It says not to share your notes. Period.

"Mental notes" are too vague and figurative to be covered in the rules with that kind of statement. Your average player will NOT think of "mental notes" as "notes" in official text. If a legal document stated, "all notes taken during court proceedings must be submitted to the judge", does this mean everything you think during the course of that trial?

Also, the very same rulebook you cited also says:

Notes are restricted to game information that is public to both players.

Can I not take mental notes on what is prized, or what I have in my hand? Because "notes" are restricted to public information. Period.

A player may not refer to notes taken during previous rounds while the tournament is still in progress.

According to your definition of "notes", if I play the same person in Top 2 as I did in Round 3, I can't think back to that match to recall what techs he plays, etc.


Clearly, the same section of the rulebook that you yourself cited proves the rulebook's definition of "notes" does not include mental notes.

 

[billbilski]

Unless i missed something, you're saying that somewhere in this thread it says you have to honestly divulge the contents of your deck if your opponent asks. That's ludicrous!

If you are playing Lux GL X and your opponent asks if you are while playing them, until it is out on the field you have no obligation to tell them anything or answer them truthfully. A stupid question deserves a stupid answer. In that example, if you tell them you are truthfully or if you don't say anything they both confirm you are playing that card which isn't public knowledge.

If anything the person asking the question is gaming and deserves to receive the Game Loss penalty because it puts you in the unique position of...

tell the truth or say nothing= confirms you are playing that specific card

-or-

lie= a tough judgment that looks like would give you the GL when you eventually play the card and it only THEN becomes public knowledge

if that wasn't said then please edit this if need be.

Read post 168 from pokepop. He is stating it IS illegal. You and I agree that the game state does not require this kind of question to be relevant in any way.. I explain this in detail in an earlier post. My concern is over this kind of strict interpretation and would like some sort of a unified understanding of what is in actually worthy of penalty.

 

[Lawman]

@Waynegg: Box of fail hit the points I would add. Mental notes cannot be part of the rule. The note taking portion of the rules means actual written notes. The rules allow note taking for the sake of reports and game state. Again, you can only write out public info. That is why azelf's time walk has been ruled the way it has been.

As for the sharing of info in the hallway between rds.....If the actions are soo illegal, why hasnt POP ever told the judging staff to stop/police that act? We keep players away from the rail as best we can at Nats and Worlds. We try to limit scouting. We do not police talking between rds. Not trying to sound "superior" here, but you have several worlds and Nats judges posting in this thread and no one is backing you up on this suggestion.

Let me ask you it this way....when T32 is announced at Worlds or t64 at Nats....everyone looks over the standings. Every player and judge understands that the highest seed plays the lowest seed. 2nd goes agst the next to worst seed. The seeds are placed in a bracket like the NCAA tourney. When they go out of the hall until the next day and staff starts deck checks, what do the players that qualify do? They find out or know already what the oppo is playing. I've even seen players try to recreate the oppo's deck to playtest vs their recreated deck overnight. Is this cheating?? No way!

Keith

 

[PokePop]

Read post 168 from pokepop. He is stating it IS illegal. You and I agree that the game state does not require this kind of question to be relevant in any way.. I explain this in detail in an earlier post. My concern is over this kind of strict interpretation and would like some sort of a unified understanding of what is in actually worthy of penalty.

I was referring to the part of the post asking about having the bogus "reference card" displayed.
That is illegal.

I made no comment about answering questions between rounds about deck contents.
I'm not going to get into that foolishness.

 

[waynegg]

@Waynegg: Box of fail hit the points I would add. Mental notes cannot be part of the rule. The note taking portion of the rules means actual written notes. The rules allow note taking for the sake of reports and game state. Again, you can only write out public info. That is why azelf's time walk has been ruled the way it has been.

As for the sharing of info in the hallway between rds.....If the actions are soo illegal, why hasnt POP ever told the judging staff to stop/police that act? We keep players away from the rail as best we can at Nats and Worlds. We try to limit scouting. We do not police talking between rds. Not trying to sound "superior" here, but you have several worlds and Nats judges posting in this thread and no one is backing you up on this suggestion.

Let me ask you it this way....when T32 is announced at Worlds or t64 at Nats....everyone looks over the standings. Every player and judge understands that the highest seed plays the lowest seed. 2nd goes agst the next to worst seed. The seeds are placed in a bracket like the NCAA tourney. When they go out of the hall until the next day and staff starts deck checks, what do the players that qualify do? They find out or know already what the oppo is playing. I've even seen players try to recreate the oppo's deck to playtest vs their recreated deck overnight. Is this cheating?? No way!

Keith

Just one simple question;

If sharing written notes is deemed to be illegal and gives an unfair advantage to the informed player, which I'm sure we can BOTH agree is implicit in the rules, how is it that doing THE EXACT SAME THING with your mental notes, which provides for the exact same informed player unfair advantage situation, not against the rules? Same method (shared prior knowledge), same outcome.

To answer your question, just because no one has backed me up on this, yet, doesn't make me wrong. Following the crowd and not applying common sense (cause/effect=cause/effect) to the issue doesn't make you right. You can have 10,000 tweens on your side and find strength in your numbers; I'll be happy to stand on my own and gather my strength from my stance alone.

How people are paired in a tournament is extraneous information meant to throw the reader off ('well, he's right about that, so he must be right about the other as well...') and subliminally persuade them to your side. I never asked you to monitor hallway conversations, a purposely distracting statement, also extraneous to the topic, you made where-by putting words into my mouth and designed to bolster your argument by trying to make me lose face. And "everybody else does it" is, as it has always been, a flaky argument which I'm sure you wouldn't accept from your teen if you caught him/her getting into your liquor cabinet.

As I stated previously- I know you can't stop all of it. I wouldn't even ask you to try. That doesn't ex post facto mean you should turn a deaf ear and blind eye to what you do hear and see.

Wayne