jimu and Sabu

[EliGagerNorris]

I use Catcher in a lot of my decks, but I still deem it broken and won't miss it when it's gone.

I'm not gonna touch on that other stuff, as opinions are opinions, but Catcher is here to stay for at least 29 months, if not longer, depending on if they reprint it later on after DE.

 

[vaporeon]

No.

It attacks a part of the game that you would like to be safe. That's not the same thing.

There's no rule that the Bench should be a safe place for Pokemon, no underlying principle, no unwritten law (even the VG has Roar) - they are 'in play' just as much as the active. The most you can say is that the Bench should be safer than the active - which it is, as you don't need Catcher to attack the active and spread/snipe attacks tend to do less damage and/or have higher costs than those that target the active.

Again it's a matter of people having different opinions on what the game should be like.

We both have a different meaning of safe then. Roar, unlike catcher uses your attack for the turn and, just so you know, brings out a random Pokemon, You don't get to bring out a pokemon of your choosing. If catcher were a supporter, it would be 10 time more balanced or if the effect stayed as an attack effect.

it true there's no written rule on it but the bench is suppose to be 'safe'. Spread and snipe has always been with the game but it should not go past that but we both have different views on the game.

---------- Post added 04/20/2012 at 02:50 PM ----------

Switch is easy to play. Must be broken.
Revive is easy to play. Must be broken.
Energy Search is easy to play. Must be broken.
Heavy Ball is easy to play. Must be broken.
[/I]

Not sure how you can relate any of those to Catcher...

 

[raw19]

I'm not gonna touch on that other stuff, as opinions are opinions, but Catcher is here to stay for at least 29 months, if not longer, depending on if they reprint it later on after DE.

Indeed. A lot of stuff that is the topic of these kinds of threads are here to stay for awhile. We as Players must indeed learn to deal with it and adapt to it.

Which doesn't mean that we have to like it, doesn't mean we can't or won't complain about it, and doesn't mean we won't always vie for a better and happier format.

 

[baby mario]

We both have a different meaning of safe then. Roar, unlike catcher uses your attack for the turn and, just so you know, brings out a random Pokemon, You don't get to bring out a pokemon of your choosing. If catcher were a supporter, it would be 10 time more balanced or if the effect stayed as an attack effect.

it true there's no written rule on it but the bench is suppose to be 'safe'. Spread and snipe has always been with the game but it should not go past that but we both have different views on the game.

I know what Roar does, I only mentioned it to say that even in the VG non-active Pokemon aren't totally immune. It's always dangerous to compare the mechanics of the two games anyway, so I guess I shouldn't even have mentioned it.

I don't even have an opinion on whether the Bench 'should' be safe or not. It is as safe as the game designers want it to be. My job is just to work with what they give me.

 

[psychup2034]

Catcher is easy to play, not hard to trade for/buy, and has an insane;y powerful effect that 9 times out of 10 can win you the game. (It lacks the luck factor of Reversal, but depending on what you drag up can win you the game right there.)

Your statement here is just blatantly wrong. Pokemon Catcher doesn't win you the game 9 times out of 10. At Regionals this past weekend, my opponents used Pokemon Catcher on me more than I used it on them. I was able to win 9 out of 11 matches.

Depending on what you drag up, Pokemon Catcher can certainly win you a game, but so can other cards, like Pluspower (to do an extra 10 damage), Switch (to get an Eelektrik out of the active spot), Revive (to get a Mewtwo EX back from the discard), Energy Retrieval (to get an energy to power up the final attack for the win), etc.

 

[EliGagerNorris]

it true there's no written rule on it but the bench is suppose to be 'safe'. Spread and snipe has always been with the game but it should not go past that but we both have different views on the game.

---------- Post added 04/20/2012 at 02:50 PM ----------



Not sure how you can relate any of those to Catcher...

Once again, it's not necessarily supposed to be safe. Gust of Wind was in Base Set, and Pokemon Reversal has had many reprints, not to mention cards like Spinarak HS.

 

[psychup2034]

Not sure how you can relate any of those to Catcher...

You implied that easy to play = broken. I simply countered your faulty argument.

 

[vaporeon]

I know what Roar does, I only mentioned it to say that even in the VG non-active Pokemon aren't totally immune. It's always dangerous to compare the mechanics of the two games anyway, so I guess I shouldn't even have mentioned it.

I don't even have an opinion on whether the Bench 'should' be safe or not. It is as safe as the game designers want it to be. My job is just to work with what they give me.

Amen to that.<img src="http://pokegym.net/forums/images/smilies/nonono.gif">

---------- Post added 04/20/2012 at 02:59 PM ----------

Once again, it's not necessarily supposed to be safe. Gust of Wind was in Base Set, and Pokemon Reversal has had many reprints, not to mention cards like Spinarak HS.

But there was a reason you did not see the effect again till Luxray LV.X and now catcher. Reversal was over looked for the same reason any card with a coin flip effect was and was in the shadow of Warp Point. Reversal was still a strong card. An effect for that should be limited to a supporter or attack and maybe an ability.

---------- Post added 04/20/2012 at 03:03 PM ----------

You implied that easy to play = broken. I simply countered your faulty argument.

How is it faulty? Pokemon Catcher is a very aggressive card to be played at no cost . It's too powerful to be played for free. You lose nothing playing it. That's what we mean by broken. It even more broken when paired with another broken card and I mean Junk Arm.

just because a card is easy to play (Revive,Heavy Ball, etc) does not mean it's broken but when a highly aggressive card is easy to play, then it adds to its broken factor.

 

[psychup2034]

But there was a reason you did not see the effect again till Luxray LV.X and now catcher. Reversal was over looked for the same reason any card with a coin flip effect was and was in the shadow of Warp Point. Reversal was still a strong card. An effect for that should be limited to a supporter or attack and maybe an ability.

Your statement that "you did not see the effect again till Luxray LV.X and now catcher" is completely wrong.

After the first rotation, Reversal was quickly brought into the format in Pokemon Expedition (released in Japan in 2001), and a similar effect has been in the format ever since. A "gusting" effect has been used in a variety of top-tier decks, with Ross taking full advantage of it (POW! Block in 2005) and of course Rambolt 2 years later (2007).

---------- Post added 04/20/2012 at 03:08 PM ----------

Just going to let you debate yourself here:

Catcher is broken in the same way Pot Of Greed in yugioh is and that's because the card is too easy to play.

just because a card is easy to play... does not mean it's broken...

 

[vaporeon]

Your statement that "you did not see the effect again till Luxray LV.X and now catcher" is completely wrong.

After the first rotation, Reversal was quickly brought into the format in Pokemon Expedition (released in Japan in 2001), and a similar effect has been in the format ever since. A "gusting" effect has been used in a variety of top-tier decks, with Ross taking full advantage of it (POW! Block in 2005) and of course Rambolt 2 years later (2007).

Tell me how many of those had the same hard effect the gust of wind did? To my knowledge, only Luxray X and Catcher. The other cards, like I stated before were by attacks and abilities. Reversal was not played because people did not want to risk the coin flip. Other required you to be behind in prizes but there was not a hard gusting effect till Luxray X.

 

[baby mario]

Torterra LV X and PokeBlower+ come to mind.

Ok, they weren't used much . . . but that GoW effect was still there.

 

[Otaku]

A "gusting" effect has long been with the game... but the game was designed with a Bench that requires a card effect in order to strike something on it (or that once was on it). If the Bench is to offer no protection, why have it at all? Nothing says the rule couldn't be change to "you may only attack with one Pokemon per turn" and just have a row of Pokemon" (no Active, no Bench).

I'll have to go into detail later; I had just enough time to catch-up on the thread and post.

 

[vaporeon]

Torterra LV X and PokeBlower+ come to mind.

Ok, they weren't used much . . . but that GoW effect was still there.

Yes. Again Torterra X required you to be behind in prizes much like Pow hand Extension and PokeBlower+ required you to play both at the same time but Luxray X was the first card since GOW to have the same hard text with no cost other then evolving.

 

[psychup2034]

Yes. Again Torterra X required you to be behind in prizes much like Pow hand Extension and PokeBlower+ required you to play both at the same time but Luxray X was the first card since GOW to have the same hard text with no cost other then evolving.

Wait, so to you, having 2 of a card in your hand is a "cost," but having to level up is not a "cost"?

vaporeon, please stop being so arbitrary with your arguments. The reason your arguments are faulty is because you're making up the premises as you go along and adjusting those premises to fit your own narrow view.

 

[raw19]

Your statement here is just blatantly wrong. Pokemon Catcher doesn't win you the game 9 times out of 10. At Regionals this past weekend, my opponents used Pokemon Catcher on me more than I used it on them. I was able to win 9 out of 11 matches.

I'll admit I was wrong here.

Depending on what you drag up, Pokemon Catcher can certainly win you a game, but so can other cards, like Pluspower (to do an extra 10 damage), Switch (to get an Eelektrik out of the active spot), Revive (to get a Mewtwo EX back from the discard), Energy Retrieval (to get an energy to power up the final attack for the win), etc.

These cards are good and can mos def help one win a game. But, they still aren't nearly as over-powered and game-state changing as Catcher. People aren't complaining about Catcher because it's being used to drag up their Emboars and they can't find a Switch. They're complaining because, and especially in this format of OHKO's, Catcher = a prize.

You and a lot of others seem to have no problem dealing with Catcher. A lot of Yu-Gi-Oh players would have no problem dealing with Pot of Greed were it to return. But, even if you can deal with something, play around something, counter something, a broken card is still a broken card.

 

[psychup2034]

A "gusting" effect has long been with the game... but the game was designed with a Bench that requires a card effect in order to strike something on it (or that once was on it).

Yes, the game was designed with a Bench that requires a card effect (Gust of Wind) in order to strike something on it (or that once was on it).

That's one of the points I've been trying to make. The game was designed such that a card effect (Gust of Wind) could make the bench no longer safe. Thanks for making this point for me.

If the Bench is to offer no protection, why have it at all?

• To set up other attackers
• For support Pokemon like Eelektrik
• To play Pokemon cards to bait an opponent's action (like benching a Smeargle to force out the Catcher when you wouldn't want to Portrait your hand)

Nothing says the rule couldn't be change to "you may only attack with one Pokemon per turn" and just have a row of Pokemon" (no Active, no Bench).

I'll bet a significant amount of money (somewhere in the thousands) that Japan will not make this rule change within the next 5 years (and I only say 5 because I want to see a return on the bet!).

Let me write a more realistic comment: "Nothing from current tournament results is suggesting that the game is more unbalanced because of Pokemon Catcher. As baby_mario said, Catcher isn't making the game unplayable. It isn't creating a situation where every game is a 50-50 regardless of player skill."

 

[vaporeon]

Wait, so to you, having 2 of a card in your hand is a "cost," but having to level up is not a "cost"?

vaporeon, please stop being so arbitrary with your arguments. The reason your arguments are faulty is because you're making up the premises as you go along and adjusting those premises to fit your own narrow view.

All I'm trying to say is no card since GOW had the same hard effect. other cards had a cost. GOW had no cost, just play and go. Luxray X has no cost to using its power. catcher has no cost to being played. There's nothing being made up here. Every other Gust card( Double Gust, Warp point, Circulator.etc) gave players a chance at defense to save their setup most of the time. Could still get a prize but not most of the time. Others had a cost or activated effect to be played like POW hand Extension, Pokeblower+ and Torterra X and the last few have no cost to be played what so ever and those are GOW, Luxray X and Catcher.

You on the other hand compare a card POW hand extension to GOW and Catcher when you can't.

 

[psychup2034]

All I'm trying to say is no card since GOW had the same hard effect.

This doesn't make Pokemon Catcher broken.

No card since Impostor Professor Oak has had the effect of Impostor Professor Oak. By your implied argument, Impostor Professor Oak would be broken. Right?

 

[vaporeon]

This doesn't make Pokemon Catcher broken.

No card since Impostor Professor Oak has had the effect of Impostor Professor Oak. By your implied argument, Impostor Professor Oak would be broken. Right?

Well, we both have different meanings of broken.

 

[psychup2034]

Well, we both have different meanings of broken.

I posted this to Otaku on the last page, and I'm going to post this again to you, vaporeon:

vaporeon, do you care to explain how your opinion that Pokemon Catcher is broken is based on fact? From what I can tell, your opinion about Pokemon Catcher just reflects your bitterness and resentment about this format.

Here are the facts:

• City championships this season had Pokemon Catcher in the format. A myriad of decks performed well during cities, like Magneels, Chandyplume, 6 Corners, Durant, etc. If you look at the list of Cities winning decks, there's a boatload of variety. Pokemon Catcher did nothing to limit the number of playable decks. In fact, in a format with Pokemon Catcher, we had so many playable decks that people were complaining that the format was too "rock-paper-scissors" in the sense that getting lucky matchups was more important than playing skill.
• Pokemon Catcher changes the format, but also adds skill to the game. Gone are the days (at least temporarily), where games are about who can get their ideal setup of multiple Stage 1 and Stage 2 Pokemon first. Decks have to be more adaptable now to the fact that the bench is no longer safe. I've seen misplays happen when a player has "benched the wrong Pokemon" and lose the game as a result.
• Pokemon Catcher (with the help of N) makes wild comebacks a possibility. A player less frequently loses a game because your opponent took the first prize and you could never recover. Both sides have to be more prudent about managing their resources to recover from the loss of a key Pokemon.

vaporeon, the two arguments you have given so far to explain why you think Pokemon Catcher is broken are:

1. It's easy to play
2. The effect wasn't replicated on another card at "no cost" until recently

Neither of these are good arguments as to why Pokemon Catcher is broken. I've highlighted a bunch of cards that are easy to play, but not broken (even you agree). I've also highlighted one card for which the effect wasn't replicated on another card (Impostor Professor Oak), and you seem to agree that it isn't broken either.

So, I ask, please justify your assertion that Pokemon Catcher is broken using facts.