Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Lost world + Gengar Viability

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chetabear

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If lost world is released in call of legends with all of its other unreleased support, I still don't see how it can manage to be as competitive as people are making it out to be. Sp decks will almost never have pokemon in their hands after their first turn of trainers, so how does "lostgar" or "mewgar" intend to lost zone 6 pokemon w/ Hurl into darkness?

Seeker is not a viable option to try to play 5 times against SP, (assuming you did somehow get something with a T1 Hurl), leaving easily blocked hand shuffle options as your only shot at lost zoning Pokemon (Spiritomb gets sprayed, or you can blow another supporter to play lookers or judge).

Discuss?
 
It's extremely viable if you do nothing more than tech ONE card into this existing format: LostWorld.

Palkia G LvX makes them lost zone their bench.

Gengar Prime Hurls things after a Lookers, Spiritomb TM, OR a Seeker .. OR MORE if you play warp energy and smeargle.

Twins enables you to keep things going after your Gengars get smashed by attackers.

The prize count will be like LostGar 6 and you 2 or 3 before the stadium drops and ends your game.

I've played against the deck alot. It's a royal pain.

The problem is, alot of people are merely THEORIZING about it and not many are actually building it out (with what we have available now) and testing it.

It's nasty WITHOUT any new cards from the coming set EXCEPT for Lost World.

So, I truly hope that there is some kind of counter card(s) to Lost World (perhaps a PokeBody that says "NO STADIUMS can be in play as long as ___random Pokemon___ is on your bench"
 
But almost all of that only works on paper, I have seen MewGar go 50-50 at best against decks that were completely unprepared for it, and get straight SWEPT by anything with a tech against it (dialga G, Honchkrow SV, weavile.. etc)
 
and makes you incapable of playing a supporter to set up pokemon on your bench while your active stage 2 is getting 1-2HKOed
 
Are you SURE you've played against this deck?

Because it looks like you haven't really played against someone who has really been trying to work this deck out and has built it out with a couple of proxies.

The seekers allow you to drop continuous Uxies. Builds I've played against don't even have mew in them.
 
Ive played against lostgar with mew, and lostgar with a fast trainer engine, and I have seen them get walked over by a single Weavile G / Honchkrow, since the game is essentially over after 3 turns of "Riot for 220"
 
Just a side note lookers is not a viable option for shuffling pokemon into your opponents hand. They can choose to draw 0-5 cards, making it an unreliable option. Spiritomb TM is your best choice.
 
So, I truly hope that there is some kind of counter card(s) to Lost World (perhaps a PokeBody that says "NO STADIUMS can be in play as long as ___random Pokemon___ is on your bench"

It's called Dialga G. By the time that you need to Deafen wall-off stadiums, your opponent will have 6 mon LZ'd. If you have 2 dialga G open, you will take 5-6 turns to KO them both... that should leave time to be called. Obviously, LostGar will be behind in prizes. That ISN'T including the possibility of Chomp and Poketurn. This just makes me want a Manectric EX reprint style of card even more... just to quiet people down about the topic :)

LostGar is a hard deck to play around. I've seen two types of builds for it: fast/consistent. Fast build is generally the worse of the two. Once you KO the 2nd Gengar in the fast build, you basically win. The consistent builds sometimes use Mew... sometimes not. The ones that do will hopefully (for them) LZ a gar T1/2 and then start going to town. These ones are very winnable if you have Dialga G in deck. You will have many prizes quickly, and if everything goes well, you will not have too much trouble. The other consistent build is a slow-and-steady Gengar build. These builds often get off around T2/3. This is the very hard build to play around (I have found). The constant Huntering (not calling it the American name) of Uxies/Mesprits/Gengars is just a real pain. They will usually get 3-4 Gengars out in play in a game... assuming the opponent is doing well. This matchup is a real big pain in the butt. Once again, Dialga G is an option, but it is less amazing because this build will be able to Compound pain pretty easily. I have seen it happen in many games. They have enough time and resources to do it. All three of these builds can be played around in a few ways. First off, I LOVE Cynthia and Judge right now for hand removal. I doubt we're going to see more than 1 Spiritomb TM per deck. I dislike it... and I'm sure a few others do as well. It feels very random and giving an opponent 6 cards (+ draw) is never a good idea. I barely feel comfortable giving my opponent a looker. Next, Junk Arm and Regice are your friends. The game will get to a point where you barely have pokemon left in your deck... and you'll happily Junk Arm/bebe/PokeComm/Regice them away. That means that the opponent needs to go Agro Gengar, or start using Hunter and hoping for the best. You will rarely ever need more than 1 attacker per game against Gengar... so just don't drop evos on bench and you should be relatively safe. Assuming they get 6 Hunters per game (Very possible), that will only give them 5 LZ'd mon plus your active remains. This is very hard to do and very situational, but I find myself putting Junk Arm, Regice, Cynthia, and Judge in things that probably don't need much. Techs that do one-shot gengar could work... theoretically. If anything, I'd say go Riot Honchkrow SV or Absol G X (yes, it exists). There are plenty of options to play against this deck...just work with it.

Is this deck over powered? I would say not. Is it BDIF? We'll see. Is it very good? I would say so. Another big problem I can see with it is match play. 75 minutes is not enough time for this deck to play a few full games. Since it barely takes prizes, it needs to be pretty fast to even win. It basically has to go 2-0 against a deck in top to survive. If it loses first game, it will probably have 40ish minutes left. It NEEDS to play 2 more full games to win. Seems very unlikely to me. Other decks (even VileGar) can try to take a prize against it in 3rd game to just win.

Once again, just my 2 cents. I have found a lot of this from testing. If you have not done so yet, try it ;D This game is not a science. You may get different results than me despite using the same variables.
 
Vague, nebulous deck-builds around a particular set of soon-to-come cards?
Theoretically insufficient counters?
Gimmicky setup?
Requires a mix of luck and redundant lines for any semblance of consistency?
Popular in Japan?

Sounds like another AMU, tbh.
 
We did some heavy testing with it yesterday. The LostGar player will usually have no problem getting 4 or 5 Pokemon into the Lost Zone early game. Without Mesprit techs, the LostGar player will generally lose to anything with Regice/Regirock or players than can Junk Arm away Pokemon that could otherwise be Hurled. Mr. Mime is essential for checking out hands, and Spooky Whirlpool helps for surprise HID. It hasn't been tested against VileGar yet, but I personally theorize that it will have the same problems that regular Stage 2 decks face with being denied access to Rare Candy, Pokemon Communcation, etc... One more thing is the importance of Judge late game... If they get close to their win condition, you can get lucky by Judging them away from any of their 2, sometimes 3 stadiums. Will the deck be a force to reckon with? Absolutely. Will it take over the format? Time will tell.
 
Most of the stuff you guys are talking about doing to counter LostGar, LostGar already has a built in (as in no need for techs) counter to. I've all but stopped playing competitively so here's what I've been running:

4-2-3 Gengar Prime
2-2 Palkia G LV X
2-2 Omastar (AR-MD)
2 Uxie
1-1 Honchkrow SV

4 Helix Fossil
4 Pokemon Collector
3 Hunter
3 Twins
2 Broken Time Space
2 Lost World
2 Pokemon Communication
2 Rare Candy
2 Warp Point
1 Luxury Ball

8 Psychic Energy
6 Water Energy

That's with this Haunter which takes care of the Deafen lock issue. T1 Omanyte forces your opponent to focus on taking it out (usually 2+ turns) as you're drawing 4 cards per turn at least with no extra draw. By the time it's eliminated you usually have at least 1 Twins in your hand to nab the 1 or 2 vards you may still need. It's all downhill from there. When you're able to Lost Zone 2-4 Pokemon each turn, Gengar doesn't care if it's one shot a couple of times.

Contemplating dropping the 1-1 Honchkrow in favor of a couple of Pokemon Reversal just to strengthen the Dialga G match-up though because I've only had to use Honchkrow once.
 
I've GOT to ask, how does that Haunter stop Deafen lock? It does 30 and stops retreat... oh wait, resistance, 10... oh wait, special metal... Even if you did KO it eventually, can't they just promote a new one?
 
I've GOT to ask, how does that Haunter stop Deafen lock? It does 30 and stops retreat... oh wait, resistance, 10... oh wait, special metal... Even if you did KO it eventually, can't they just promote a new one?

Warp Point/ Pokemon Reversal to bench the Dialga G, promote another Pokemon (peferrably a non SP hence the thought of changing out the Honchkrow), and then Shadow Bind so they can't retreat. Next turn you can drop the stadium because they can't Deafen from the bench.

I really just posted that list as a jumping off point on what all Gengar has going for it that doesn't have to be worked in. It's all part of the strategy in the first place. I'm by no means trying to say that my list is the end all.

Anyhow, that's how that Haunter counters Dialga G. Locks it on the bench.
 
Warp Point/ Pokemon Reversal

both trainers! Going to try and play Cyclone Energy?

I really just posted that list as a jumping off point on what all Gengar has going for it that doesn't have to be worked in. It's all part of the strategy in the first place. I'm by no means trying to say that my list is the end all.

In any event I appreciate the list, and I'm sure many prospective testers will too.
 
I wouldn't want to. I like the all basic Energy since it maximizes the chances of having the one I need when I need it.
 
Are you SURE you've played against this deck?

Because it looks like you haven't really played against someone who has really been trying to work this deck out and has built it out with a couple of proxies.

The seekers allow you to drop continuous Uxies. Builds I've played against don't even have mew in them.

the Seekers allow you to retreat Gengar and effectively prevent your opponent from doing anything that isn't OHKO'ing you.
 
Sp decks will almost never have pokemon in their hands after their first turn of trainers, so how does "lostgar" or "mewgar" intend to lost zone 6 pokemon w/ Hurl into darkness?

Seeker is not a viable option to try to play 5 times against SP

I find both of those statements to be untrue based on actual testing with proxy cards.

Most traditional SP builds are in fact uniquely vulnerable to LostGar. Many current SP decks have 14 or more basics ... an only 5 bench slots. They also have 3+ level X cards that are frequently in hand. Playing SP it's actually hard to keep Pokemon out of your hand mid game, though I'll grant you the early game potential.

As for Seeker, as other's have pointed out, unless you OHKO something it just gets Seekered back up and put down fresh ... while at the same time forcing the SP player to put something in hand.

I think that some of this comes from people playing LostGar wrong. They try to use Mew to send one of their own Gars to the lost zone and then spam Mews. That's going to get beaten by SP, no doubt. However if they spam Gengars on the other hand it's a lot harder.

To counter Lost Gar SP will need to do some of the following:
  • Play Lost Gar counters like Wevile G, Honchkrow G, and Dialga G ... many of these aren't great against the rest of the meta though.
  • Play more ways to get Pokemon out of hand ... Regice, ,more Bebe's, additional SP Radars, shuffle supporters like Judge, etc.
  • Play few basics and fewer level X cards ... which means less consistency and that it's harder to run broken combos.
  • Have their own ways to send stuff to the lost zone like Palkia G lv.X or Absol G lv.X ... most of which aren't as good as Gengar's attack and you may need something flippy like Level Max to really get Palkia in by suprise.
  • Find more ways to play without powers since LostGar is likely going to be running Mesprit for the lock ... which among other things means more draw and hand refresh trainers instead of Uxie & Cyrus chaining being the only cosistency engine.

All that's doable, but it's a big hit for SP no matter how you look at it. LostGar isn't going to be the only thing being played either. T-Tar, Machamp, Kingdra, Gyarados, and more are all going to be lurking around and perhaps seeing a lot of play in a given area ... so your nifty SP Counter deck needs to be able to win vs them too.
 
Something that is really good about Lostgar, is that it has alot of different techs it can play for any type of problem (this is why decks like Luxchomp stay so playable.) If Dialga is a problem or other SP cards, you can tech Machamp. If people like to use the fossil trick to make Seeker worthless for the Gengar player, run Vileplume.

The deck also abuses Seeker so well. It's already a good card when it benefits the opponent as well, so being able to stop that as well as picking up one of your own Pokemon and having a Pokemon avaliable to Lost Zone is amazing.
 
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