Ohio & player issues discussion.

[Idling_Crisis]

It was noticed during game two while I was cutting his deck. But like in any game if a sleeve rips it must be replaced. This was about 10-15 cards that had the side edges beginning to pull back revealling white on the sides of blue sleeves in random spots. Is that what you asked for?

 

[MrMeches]

Approximately, how long was game one??

 

[Idling_Crisis]

I do not know where these question are leading but game one was him scooping after drawing his first card as I was able to ko his only Pokemon. He scooped game two about 10-20 minutes in the match totally, turn two or three. Point being?

 

[calisupra2nr]

Let's not over react.
I'm sure you don't mean that you want to play people that are disregarding the rules, rules against stacking their decks, or playing illegal decks, etc.

The rules are there not to annoy you, but to protect you, and all the players.

I wasn't there, so I don't know what your deck sleeves looked like.
I don't know what kind of attitude you were faced with when being told your sleeves were bad.
I would hope that things were handled within the Spirit of the Game.

From what the staff has said, if you had a little patience, they would have worked with you to correct the issue. That seems like SotG to me.

Would you like staff to ignore players that are in fact marking their decks with damage sleeves so that they can cheat when they play you, undetected?
No? Well, the only way to protect against that is to deal with bad sleeves when they are found.
Even if they are being used by a player that is not cheating.
It was not a personal slam against you.
It's like a policeman giving a driver a ticket for having a broken tail light.
They didn't mean to have a broken tail light.
But it was a danger to all the drivers on the road.
It might come with the opportunity to get the light fixed and not pay the fine, but the light still has to be fixed, right?
The policeman can't say to himself, "Well, he didn't know he had a broken tail light. I'll let him keep driving with it because the rules annoy him".
See what I'm saying?

I am trying to understand your relation to a policeman, but I can not fully agree with it. While everything is relative, this is Pokemon and it is a game of fun. I understand that people should be protected from cheating by rules. To feel the need to approach a judge after they have already looked over the deck twice and then play through 2 rounds prior to the one in question and then call out a judge for sleeves... does not make a whole lot of sense. I could understand if I was talked to before out tournament started, but I was not. Instead I was addressed in game 2 of top cut, which inherently feels like a slam against myself as why would someone approach a judge with a concern this far along if it was not for me cheating? Rules are rules, but at some point you need to be considerate of an individual. Like I said before, I have played numerous players that do not have "best sleeves in format". Do I call them out? No, because you are making that leap into assumption of rulebreaking and the need for a judge to rule upon that assumption.

I guess it is my turn to step in. I am the other player. And yes I am not that old, but I am older. Your statement on that is correct. Although much like what happened between us, you are jumping to conclusion about Kemony's comments. She was just making a comment to try to make fun of me not correct anyone. She found the old geaser comments to be funny.

And with that, you did just that. I made the judge aware of the sleeves not to get them to make a rule against you. Like I did prior to the beginning of the match by letting you know your options that the judges did not let you be aware of, I was only letting you aware of the issue for future events. The judges are the ones who made the descision to make a ruling. I even said, as Agent P stated, don't worry about it and to play the sleeves as is. I knew what you were playing and would never made you play unsleeved as the judge ruled. But that part must not been heard as you had made your conclusion and just ended up scooping your cards up and storming out of there without hearing anything else.

I'm sorry if you felt that way about the issue without knowing the entire reasons. And I'm sorry your tournament ended like that, but it was all your choice to scoop and walk out. As you said I had won the first game early on and our 2nd game, though it had just started, seemed to be going well for the both of us. I would of loved to seen the end of it. I am a person who loves the game but I also believe rules are placed for reason and they are for everyone and every event, even a small battle roads. The smaller events just have lesser penalties for the rules. As Agent P said I am a judge that is big on sleeves but there are many others who are much worse about it than me. There are also many others who would find every little thing to get an easy win as it has happened to others I know in previous years.

I hope our encounter does not remove you from this great game as I felt you were a very nice kid and I did trust that the sleeves were not intentional as you didn't come across as someone who might cheat. Otherwise I wouldn't of offered to keep playing as is. As I did in other matches letting the judges know I did not want warnings giving for small errors, we are people and no one is perfect.

Well, I am done babbling now and everyone can make there own opinions about everything now. Good luck to everyone this battle road season as it is a hard one.

Well I stormed out because honestly, it was a slam against my integrity. We played 2 games prior to the incident and you did not request a judge at that point. I understand that you said it was fine, but if it was fine why did you ask for the check in the first place? Rules are rules, and if you want to follow them to the point that it ruins the game for casual players by interrupting what is supposed to be fun, then that is your choice. I am not that kind of person and I am the kind of person that thinks when someone calls you out on a form of cheating, they think your cheating. It is a matter of opinion and lifestyle, but I know many people are turned away by such strict gameplay judgments on such a chill game, and I will not submit my time to a game like that again. I am not going to stop attending Ohio events because of this and I do not have a grudge against you, like I said matter of choice and lifestyle. As long as we can agree to disagree we can move forward and have fun in our own manner.


Also, could someone clarify what older sleeves could hurt? Thinking through this, I am not sure what the problem is with bent sleeves? If you are "stacking your deck", your opponent always has the option to cut. If you are searching your deck for a single card, you are doing so because a card already lets you and in which case you are showing to your opponent. I understand if you see a card coming you can plan for the upcoming choices, but nearly every turn your opponent will shuffle/cut your deck so you have to literally hope for that card to be naturally drawn and then "cheat" by planning around that draw? But don't we do that already by hoping/planning to draw cards in our deck regardless of sleeves?

 

[mddcb]

Adam,

You said, "Rules are rules, and if you want to follow them to the point that it ruins the game for casual players by interrupting what is supposed to be fun, then that is your choice."


I don't think he ruins the game for casual players. It's hard to believe that through all these posts no one has mentioned that your opponent (the one that loves rules and hates fun)...WAS WEARING A PIKACHU SUIT while playing in the top cut!

How great is that? He's a 31-year-old, geezer that LOVES pokemon! In my opinion, he embodies the spirit of the game: clean, competitive play, while having a great time.

DB

 

[calisupra2nr]

Adam,

You said, "Rules are rules, and if you want to follow them to the point that it ruins the game for casual players by interrupting what is supposed to be fun, then that is your choice."


I don't think he ruins the game for casual players. It's hard to believe that through all these posts no one has mentioned that your opponent (the one that loves rules and hates fun)...WAS WEARING A PIKACHU SUIT while playing in the top cut!

How great is that? He's a 31-year-old, geezer that LOVES pokemon! In my opinion, he embodies the spirit of the game: clean, competitive play, while having a great time.

DB

I appreciate the fact that he decided to throw on a pikachu costume. That is wonderful and all, but it does not change (or have anything to do) with the concern that I have put into discussion... I am not alone on this school of thought, I have talked the situation over with friends who agree that it is ridiculous to just assume that about someone. I do not care if he wears a life size snorlax suit and makes a commercial for Pokemon, the fact of the matter is that to me and others, it ruins the game and is insulting to have something like that called against you. I am not a person that takes things too seriously or too far, but I know where this logic stems from and I have learned about these kinds of topics in psychology. He meant to call the judge because he meant to ensure that if I was cheating I would be caught. In order for that check to happen you have to assume the said person is cheating...

 

[Biggie]

Well I stormed out because honestly, it was a slam against my integrity.

By whom?
The player who was willing to let you finish the game with those sleeves? If he thought you were cheating he would not have made that offer.
The judges who made a correct call by the letter of the rules and who would have been happy to offer you replacement sleeves had you not "stormed out"?

I can see why you might have felt that way at the moment but to continue portraying it as such after now knowing the details makes no sense to me.

I am the kind of person that thinks when someone calls you out on a form of cheating, they think your cheating.

Before you go smacking anyone in the face with a frilly glove and demanding satisfaction I would like to point out that if anyone had decided that you were actually cheating you would have had a very different conversation.
A brief summery per the penalty guidelines:

7.6.4. Cheating
Players who intentionally commit infractions are looking to gain an unfair advantage over other players at the event.

Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Disqualification
Tier 2: Disqualification

Since a DQ never came up in your conversation, I assure you that neither did cheating.

Also, could someone clarify what older sleeves could hurt?

Also per the penalty guidelines:

Marked Cards
Cards in a player’s decks that are clearly distinguishable from other cards in the deck are called marked. A variety of conditions can cause the cards in a player’s deck to become marked. Because marked cards can give a player foresight into the next card that he or she will draw, the contents of his or her deck, or the location of a specific card in the player’s deck, marked cards cannot be allowed in a player’s deck at a sanctioned Pokémon TCG event.

Examples of Marked Cards: Minor include:
The player’s sleeves have standard wear and tear in different areas of the sleeves, which could allow the player to determine which cards are which at a cursory glance


Is it an effective way of cheating? Probably not. But again, that is why you get a warning and a chance to resleeve instead of a DQ. Why is it against the rules if it's not a great way to cheat? Because judges are not mind readers. We cant always determine intent, so we have to restrict the methods available to those with bad intent. Does that mean that folks like you have to change their sleeves even when they have no bad intent? Yup, and that is a small price to pay to make sure that the game is more fun and less open to abuses.

 

[EHLERZ5]

Does this thread need to go on much further? You have a down-home 31 year old fan wearing a pika-suit... Clearly someone that enjoys the game for what it is. So when he cuts or shuffled, the guy felt something strange. It's not wrong to at least get his curiosity satisfied, is it? I'd rather take the win or loss with the feeling that the person accross the table KNOWS I'm playing him straight up. And were you offered replacement sleeves at no cost? HELLO????? You take the sleeves bro for other practice decks at home....

Dude, you're in the Masters division, so you're not a kid.... Let this go, if you really like the game, then suck it up... Go to the next event, shake Geezer-Pika's hand... And enjoy the game.... It really "IS" that simple if you think about it...

I'm not from Ohio, but if I was you I'd refrain on downtalking the area you play/live in... Every area has people that have reps for bending the rules a bit, and you tend to watch their actions a little close. With your opponent coming on here and giving the peeps his side, you can tell he's not cut from that cloth....

End this thing..........

 

[Kemony]

Next turn is going good for both of us and then this older man decides that I am a cheater.

dude did u do a deck check with a judge
if so then the judge should of told the old geaser that the sleeves are fine since he checked them already

Well looking at it seems strange a random 61 year old calls you out on something so small but he makes it a big deal..

Mike is just so old... -shakes head-

Go to the next event, shake Geezer-Pika's hand

I could not help myself... Mike's new nickname is going to be 61-year-old-"Geaser"-Pika-BelugaChu.. FTW

On topic, Adam, I am sorry that you feel Mike was assuming you were cheating. Honestly, as everyone can see, it upset you that someone would assume you were cheating. As you do not like the assumptions of being a cheater, I am sure Mike does not appreciate you making the assumption of his assumptions. He never said you were cheating him, he just asked the judge about the sleeves. That is what a judge is for, to make sure rules are followed. You should complain more about the sleeve rules as appose to complain about the people who are following them.

Edit: As Mike had said, he was fine with you continuing play with the sleeves. He was just making everyone, the judges and yourself, aware of the difference in the sleeves so you could change them for next time.

 

[calisupra2nr]

Look, this thread is going nowhere and I am tired of refuting mute points. I felt the way I did because of what I experienced at the time. Whether or not he literally meant I was cheating is not the point in question. The point in question was that he made me feel like I was a violator and I could not enjoy the game because I could not relate to such a strict following to rules in a Pokemon game. I know many others have felt the same way and I did not start this thread to talk down upon my area, but to shed some light on some concern's that make casual players feel out of the loop. Ask anyone who knows who I am, I do not attend many of the events, and it is not because I do not like Pokemon, it is because of school, work and other pressing matters. So when I do get the chance to attend one of my favorite past times I would rather not feel out of place. He clearly did not know me, and you never want to make someone you just met feel out of place, and it SHOULD be well known that calling someone out on xxxxxxx COULD result in them feeling like a xxxxxxxx. It is a generic example of a situation of social interaction and whether or not he meant it, he should have at least thought to handle it differently as should have I after the fact.


To wrap this up, I want to ensure a couple things. First and foremost, Mike, I literally mean nothing bad about you. You are clearly a good player and have your thoughts in the right place, but just try to be more open with newbies like myself and others so that there is 0 possibilty of alienation. Second, Ohio is mentioned to pool some commentary from its players and by no means degrades the Ohio community. Overall it has been a great place to relax and this was just culture shock for the most part and I have nothing but the most respect for Ryan, Dustin, Heather, etc. Lastly, if I did offend anyone I would like to apologize, this was never meant to attack, but to voice an opinion that I have watched other's keep to themselves and ultimately just not attend Pokemon events because of.

I request that this thread be closed.

 

[Zangoosed]

Idling_Crisis you really need to take this game a little less seriously. I think calisupra2nr has every right to be upset. Nobody likes a rules stickler. This is a game and is supposed to be fun. At Battle Roads too of all things.

 

[PokePop]

I request that this thread be closed.

Sorry, it's not your thread anymore.
It is the communities.

You have accused players and judges of acting in bad faith.

Maybe they should storm off in a cloud of righteous indignation, but instead they have chosen come on here to defend themselves and clarify things for you.

Maybe you should consider that they are not lying and maybe consider that no one intened to accuse you cheating.

Their points are not moot.
You accuse them of being bad people. That should stand?

 

[calisupra2nr]

Sorry, it's not your thread anymore.
It is the communities.

You have accused players and judges of acting in bad faith.

Maybe they should storm off in a cloud of righteous indignation, but instead they have chosen come on here to defend themselves and clarify things for you.

Maybe you should consider that they are not lying and maybe consider that no one intened to accuse you cheating.

Their points are not moot.
You accuse them of being bad people. That should stand?

Ok I just suggested closing it out of the requests others made to move on... apparently we need to continue rehashing.

I have not accused judges of acting in bad faith first of all. They performed all of their requested tasks perfectly fine. Secondly, I am putting out my experience to get feedback and input from players who can relate and those involved. I did not ask for your input, especially considering you are not involved in the situation at hand. And while this is not my thread anymore, the community did not ask for your input either, so it is safe to say you clearly just enjoy being the PokePOP of the world.

I can see how your stating that I stormed off in a cloud of righteous indignation, yet you were not even there. So the only plausible explanation for your ensuing rudeness was that you heard from someone else... is there gossiping going on behind people's backs in the Pokemon community? Is that how you are implying you know so much? Or are you just trying to place your thoughts (based on speculator's comments) on a situation you want to address? For whatever reason you clearly are offended and I think it is absurd that you decide to be so shrude with responses. Maybe I should just consider all of those you just said, or maybe I should just move on and not concern myself with this... either way I was never looking for your input.

 

[SteveP]

Sleeves serve two major purposes:

- Protection
- Uniformity

To the players, protection is the most important. To the judges, uniformity is the most important.

When both sides understand these differing priorities, common ground is possible.

In a good-faith gesture, TPCi has lowered the Marked Cards penalties this season. To acknowlege this gesture, players need to be more vigilant with sleeve uniformity.

My kid constantly harps about "lightening-up" on the rules at home. Though I often stand-firm, funny thing is, as he abides the rules, I DO lighten-up sometimes.

Hopefully, both sides will learn from this.

 

[baby mario]

Idling_Crisis you really need to take this game a little less seriously. I think calisupra2nr has every right to be upset. Nobody likes a rules stickler. This is a game and is supposed to be fun. At Battle Roads too of all things.

No.

Nobody likes people who try and rule-shark to get cheap wins. That's different.

Asking someone to play by the rules (having legal sleeves) is a right that all players have, and they should be able to ask for it without being made to feel bad. Storming off and claiming that someone has questioned your integrity is a massive overreaction imo.

Just who was taking things a bit too seriously, hmmmm?

 

[Biggie]

I can see how your stating that I stormed off in a cloud of righteous indignation, yet you were not even there. So the only plausible explanation for your ensuing rudeness was that you heard from someone else...

He did hear it from someone else as it happens:

Well I stormed out because honestly, it was a slam against my integrity.

:thumb:

 

[calisupra2nr]

No.

Nobody likes people who try and rule-shark to get cheap wins. That's different.

Asking someone to play by the rules (having legal sleeves) is a right that all players have, and they should be able to ask for it without being made to feel bad. Storming off and claiming that someone has questioned your integrity is a massive overreaction imo.

Just who was taking things a bit too seriously, hmmmm?

Haha again, did I storm off or was it an expression? Where you there? That is weird what is your name again? Did I scream and run out of the building? No, let me clarify what happened. I simply decided to get home and get going on homework I needed to finish, so I literally stood up, said no I am good to scoop up, grabbed my prizes (which I was perfectly fine without) and walked out quietly. Clearly storming out and a massive overreaction...

 

[SD PokeMom]

Ok I just suggested closing it out of the requests others made to move on... apparently we need to continue rehashing.

I have not accused judges of acting in bad faith first of all. They performed all of their requested tasks perfectly fine. Secondly, I am putting out my experience to get feedback and input from players who can relate and those involved. I did not ask for your input, especially considering you are not involved in the situation at hand. And while this is not my thread anymore, the community did not ask for your input either, so it is safe to say you clearly just enjoy being the PokePOP of the world.

I can see how your stating that I stormed off in a cloud of righteous indignation, yet you were not even there. So the only plausible explanation for your ensuing rudeness was that you heard from someone else... is there gossiping going on behind people's backs in the Pokemon community? Is that how you are implying you know so much? Or are you just trying to place your thoughts (based on speculator's comments) on a situation you want to address? For whatever reason you clearly are offended and I think it is absurd that you decide to be so shrude with responses. Maybe I should just consider all of those you just said, or maybe I should just move on and not concern myself with this... either way I was never looking for your input.

dude, you yourself posted in your OP that you scooped and left, fuming...

I decided you know, this is not for me. I then just scooped up and walked out. I was fuming at the time

if you post here, you're inviting anyone on the 'gym to post in reply...including other members, mods/admins, TPCi staff, judges, etc. so by posting here you ARE looking for their input: telling anyone that their opinion is not wanted in 'your' (...not) thread is against 'gym rules.

'mom

 

[baby mario]

Haha again, did I storm off? Where you there? That is weird what is your name again? Did I scream and run out of the building? No, let me clarify what happened. I simply decided to get home and get going on homework I needed to finish, so I literally stood up, said no I am good to scoop up, grabbed my prizes (which I was perfectly fine without) and walked out quietly. Clearly storming out and a massive overreaction...

Umm . . . see Biggie's post above.

IN YOUR OWN WORDS

I stormed out

Or are your own words that unreliable?

 

[AgentP]

Adam, I should point out, that the moment you decided to post your thoughts on a public forum, you were going to get input from people who weren't there or weren't involved. So people like PokePop will be posting their replies to your topic, whether you want them to or not.

Also, I want to let you know, that you are free to email me, pm me here on the 'gym, or even call me, if you ever have any concerns about any issues that come up at my tournaments. Sometimes these things are best handled in private, than in a public setting.