Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Shuffling Your Opponent's Deck

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Don't confuse you with the facts, eh? :wink:

When one side presents facts and example and the other side just states "it's just a matter of opinion", who should we give more weight to?

The facts are shuffling your opponents deck, the opinions are that shouldn't be allowed. I am not confused by anything on the gym'. The likely hood of me being confused by anything here on the gym is slim to none, afterall, it is the gym.

A cut is a far enough sufficent randomizer. I am still on the side of saying my opponent shuffling my deck can be cheating. How to you illeviate the problem with that?

Its kind of funny 'pop, the only facts given is that is legal to do it. Cheating is a fact, damaging cards are facts. Shuffling your opponents deck wastes time...fact!

Watters-way to write an irrelevent post. Damaging of sleeves has nothing to do with winning.
Posted with Mobile style...
 
The fact is that cutting a deck that has been "weaved" does little to nothing to remove that weave.
You don't have to know where every card is in a deck to have a significant advantage knowing that a class of card is well spread throughout the deck, as opposed to true randomness which could include spread out, clusters of types of cards, and sections void of certain types of cards.

You are asserting that it is a matter of opinion that to cut such a weaved deck will be just as good as sufficiently shuffling it.
You were presented with specific examples of how that would not be the case, by showing how two energy cards could be distributed through a deck, ensuring that just a cut would still net the player one of those energy cards.
You dismissed that hard and fast example as "opinion".
In the words of Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
 
Vegeta ss4 said:
A cut is a far enough sufficent randomizer. I am still on the side of saying my opponent shuffling my deck can be cheating. How to you illeviate the problem with that?

By your own logic, maybe we should implement a rule where you're allowed to cut your own deck once after your opponent has shuffled. Oh wait... :nonono:

---------- Post added 11/10/2011 at 11:59 AM ----------

Vegeta ss4 said:
The facts are shuffling your opponents deck, the opinions are that shouldn't be allowed.

It appears that Pokepop is correct. This great line suggests that you actually have no idea what the difference between fact and opinion is.
 
so if you search your deck and see that the same cards are right next to each other and "declumping" is illegal, why dont you power shuffle right after your done shuffling?
 
If my opponent doesn't want me to shuffle his or her deck, I"m shuffling the HECK out of it. And I'm watching them like a hawk all game.
 
The Gorn: perhaps you should call a judge over, explain the situation, then let the judge shuffle the cards ins such a manner. Just to make it official. ;)
 
I just wanted to be clear that while I understand how tempting it is to do the deed directly, it just works better for all parties involved if the judge is the one giving a super-thorough shuffling and being alerted that perhaps the owner of said deck should be worth extra observation.
 
if someone shuffles my deck and damage one of my cards i exspect them to first say sorry and 2nd replace the card if it is too damaged if not then no real harm is done.
i think this way because if i damaged someone cards by my own shuffling i would replace the card and say sorry.
 
Now to answer your question. If your opponent ruins a $30 card of yours when he or she is shuffling your deck, you are generally responsible for replacing it, except in extreme circumstances (like when your opponent agrees to replace it, or when the damage was intentional). Accidents happen, it's part of life.

You might not be pleased with this answer, but if you think about it, that's kind of how life works. A little kid on a bike accidentally runs into your leg and gives you a small cut. Are you going to sue his parents demanding compensation for your injury? The truck driving in front of you on the highway kicks up a small rock that puts a small dent in your hood. Are you going to sue him demanding that he pay for a new coat of paint? Things happen all the time that may cause you some inconvenience, whether physically or financially. Although unfortunate, sometimes we just have to deal with it.

It seems that you're talking about small dings in a card like with your "small cut" and "small dent" comments. If a card gets damaged by shuffling then there's a far higher chance of it getting a crease down the middle than just small damage.

For the bolded part, that's not how real life works. Let's see some real-life examples that are roughly the same as a card getting a large crease in it by an opponent's "mistake" (but obviously with far larger items than just cards).

1: You're driving down the street and the person to the left of you accidentally drives into you instead of keeping in his/her lane which resaults in the whole left side of your vehicle getting scratched. What would happen? Simple, you both call your insurance and the other peron pays for the damage they did by their "accident".

2: An adult on a motorbike is driving towards a crosswalk and accidentally didn't see the red light which caused him/her to hit a pedestrian that's walking past and that pedestrian ends up with a broken leg. What would happen? Most commonly in the US the biker would be charged with some pretty heavy fines, and might even be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

While cards aren't as expensive as other things in life, why shouldn't another person have to replace them if they damaged them, accedentally or not? Miskakes do happen, but in real life the person that makes the mistake has to pay for it. If you don't want to have to replace someone's properdy if you damage it then don't touch it. But if you do touch it and you do damage it then take some responsibility for it and replace it.
 
Skitty, you're mistaking personal responsibility for legal responsibility, personal injury for property damage, extrapolating a pattern without making sure it is safe to do so, and comparing unlike circumstances in general.


  1. Personal responsibility appeals to ethics and morality, while legal responsibility pertains to the laws or rules governing the situation. The former is of a far greater scope than the latter. Simply put, personal freedoms allow for people to be ethically or morally "wrong" to a degree. Just as important, ethics and morality often have to deal with concepts that are vague or actually impossible to know beyond a reasonable doubt; in short you'd have to be "God". If that sounds bizarre, tell me how easy is it to know exactly how much damage to the card was excessive? What might have been there before hand, and how much of the damage done was "acceptable" for regular TCG play?
  2. Both actual rules and laws, as well as perceived "ethical" behavior with respect to personal injuries are different than with property damage, because in all honesty they are different. Damaging one's person is at one more serious (you may kill or at least irreparably damage them) and less (accidentally scratching a car versus accidentally scratching a person's skin, the latter can usually heal up on its own in a few days with no long term problems).
  3. Scale of the damage is also a factor: again laws and ethics are different. Some ethical systems claim that ultimately any "wrong" is ultimately equal in "wrongness", though from a human perspective we usually look at how much damage was done and how hard the wrong was to enact. Bending a trading card is easy, so even though said card might be expensive at the time its future worth is always in question: could be more, could be less. This is unlike personal injury, where unusual circumstances are easier to take into account: broken arm on someone in normal health versus a broken arm on someone for whom it may never properly heal due to already compromised health. We punish murder more than serious injury and serious injury more than minor injury.
  4. In most places, just because pattern exists in laws, damage, and compensation, it does not apply universally. The most obvious example would be the concept of "minors": a child is rarely punished the same as an adult. We have small claims courts for damages that are below a certain price range because it just isn't conducive to the justice system to treat the smaller injuries with the same scrutiny as the larger.
  5. Perhaps the most important is Pokemon TCG tournaments are a competition where you know going into it that your opponent will be forced to handle, somewhat roughly, your property. Your two examples were lapses in safe behavior. I can present a counter example of how injuries that occur during sporting events require gross incompetence or obvious, malicious intent to be treated as the same kinds of injury to person or property would outside of a game. Additionally it can be hard to see how much of your own actions contributed to the problem.
I can't say I am completely happy with my wording, but that's the basics. If I damage a card of my opponent's through negligence, it is my personal but not legal responsibility to replace it. Shuffling and damaging a card is not the same as carelessly spilling soda on it.


To give you an idea, here is a scenario where personal responsibility isn't so obvious:


At the beginning of the game, one player requests that they both use a legal coin for the coin flips required for the game. This coin is made of metal, but again meets all legal requirements. The other player prefers using dice (again, perfectly legal dice). Assuming the second player acquiesces to the first, should the act of tossing the coin damage either player's cards, who is responsible for that damage? Yes, another assumption, that the manner in which the coin tossed was legal. I dislike so many assumptions but in this case such assumptions are "details" important to the scenario.


So under these circumstances, is it the player who tosses the coin when it does damage who bears responsibility (personal and/or legal) for any damage done to the cards, the first player for insisting the coin be used, or the second for agreeing to use the coin? Or perhaps neither of them, given the ground rules of the game as I understand them.
 
Skitty said:
For the bolded part, that's not how real life works. Let's see some real-life examples that are roughly the same as a card getting a large crease in it by an opponent's "mistake" (but obviously with far larger items than just cards).

1: You're driving down the street and the person to the left of you accidentally drives into you instead of keeping in his/her lane which resaults in the whole left side of your vehicle getting scratched. What would happen? Simple, you both call your insurance and the other peron pays for the damage they did by their "accident".

2: An adult on a motorbike is driving towards a crosswalk and accidentally didn't see the red light which caused him/her to hit a pedestrian that's walking past and that pedestrian ends up with a broken leg. What would happen? Most commonly in the US the biker would be charged with some pretty heavy fines, and might even be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

You're absolutely right. Getting a crease down the middle of your $30 is exactly like hundreds of dollars of car repairs or manslaughter. How could I have been so stupid as to not have realized that? :nonono:


Skitty said:
While cards aren't as expensive as other things in life, why shouldn't another person have to replace them if they damaged them, accedentally or not? Miskakes do happen, but in real life the person that makes the mistake has to pay for it. If you don't want to have to replace someone's properdy if you damage it then don't touch it. But if you do touch it and you do damage it then take some responsibility for it and replace it.

Of course mistakes happen in real life. However, it's absolutely not true that the person that makes the mistake has to pay for it all the time.

So you're telling me that if a little kid runs into you with his bike, you're going to flag down his parent and demand financial compensation for your physical injury? If a commercial truck dings your car's hood with a small pellet, you're going to call his truck company and demand financial compensation for the damage to your car? While you have every right to demand compensation in both these cases, sometimes as human beings we need to be mature and understand that stuff happens. In other words, sometimes we need to just deal with it.

Obviously for some accidents, the party that committed the accidental act should be responsible for compensating the damage, but there are accidents out there where the party affected by the accident should just be an adult.
 
Otaku, all of your comments are very valid. As with your example of a sporting event, I'm pretty sure all of the athletes have signed something wavering at least some of their abilities to claim for injuries by themselves and others. I woud be completely fine with all of this if TPCI put somewhere in their tournament resources that the players aren't responsable for damage to other player's property while at their event. Just as it said somewhere in the guidelines that TPCI isn't responsable for damage to player's property while at an event. And at this rate with all of these sleeve problems that are coming up they might have to add that.

You're absolutely right. Getting a crease down the middle of your $30 is exactly like hundreds of dollars of car repairs or manslaughter. How could I have been so stupid as to not have realized that? :nonono:

Which is why I said

(but obviously with far larger items than just cards).


Of course mistakes happen in real life. However, it's absolutely not true that the person that makes the mistake has to pay for it all the time.

Corrent. But shuffling gently so that damage isn't done can be easaly done. If someone is shuffling you deak really fast or overly rough then that's their own fault. Like how it says in the Tournament Rules.

Players should take care when shuffling an opponent’s deck, as the cards in that deck are not the shuffling player’s property.

If they aren't even going to be careful and follow the rules of the tournament then they shouldn't be playing. It's not like cards would get damaged if you shuffle gently. I can't even imagine how a card could get damaged at al if someone's pile shuffling a deck at a normal speed. The problems only start when the person isn't trying to be careful.

So you're telling me that if a little kid runs into you with his bike, you're going to flag down his parent and demand financial compensation for your physical injury? If a commercial truck dings your car's hood with a small pellet, you're going to call his truck company and demand financial compensation for the damage to your car?

As I said in my last post, a small scrape or a small ding isn't much at all, either on a card or anything else. But if a card gets a crease in it then that's different because that's alot more damage than just a small ding. Using your example, if that little kid with the bike hits you so hard that you break a leg or he causes you to fall and creak your skull that I'm pretty sure their parents would be called into it.

Obviously for some accidents, the party that committed the accidental act should be responsible for compensating the damage, but there are accidents out there where the party affected by the accident should just be an adult.

"Being and adult" has nothing to do with it. If you worked hard for your cards then you shouldn't have to worry about someone damaging them just because they aren't shuffling as gently as they could have.
 
Skitty: "Shuffling gently" is seldom compatible with "shuffling thoroughly and in a timely manner". I am hardly the greatest at shuffling, but even I know that accidents happen, or at least that sometimes while shufflingit is my opponent's fault for not taking care of their own deck and sleeves.

Notice how the ruling you quoted said player's should "take care" when shuffling an opponent's deck. This is because we must understand that rule in conjunction with rules about shuffling promptly and sufficiently.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "gentle", but the gentlest shuffle I (and most people I know) can perform while making sure to sufficiently shuffle in the time allotted to shuffling does mean that


  1. If my opponent has no sleeves, mild scratching or even scuffing of cards can occur (this is why sleeves in good repair are recommended).
  2. If my opponent has sleeves in poor condition, my opponent is as much or more at fault than I am should damage result from shuffling and those poor sleeves, such as a "dent" in the sleeve lightly scratching a holofoil, or a tear on the seam allowing another card to be inserted part way into said sleeve and one or both cards becoming scuffed or even folded.
  3. If my opponent's sleeves are dirty it can affect the difficulty of shuffling. If something that makes them stick together is on the sleeves, I have to shuffle harder... or a judge would have to shuffle harder or force the owner to clean/change out the sleeves. If something actually makes the cards slicker, that can still make shuffling more difficult, since what I meant as a small movement becomes a big one! If it is just static electricity making sleeves stick together, it is the owner's responsibility to warn the other player or change out sleeves, and if said sticking means less "gentle" shuffling for sufficient and timely randomization is required, it is on the owner's head. If while doing this the clinging causes a card to catch in an odd place and get bent, again the owner is at fault. Most of us are willing to take that risk instead of requiring several full sets of sleeves per tournament.
  4. Again, accidents happen! Unless you are very slowly and with little force shuffling, which means you are penalizing yourself by not sufficiently randomizing your opponent's deck, or you are taking far too much time to shuffle, sometimes a card will seemingly randomly slide the wrong direction and get bent.
Now I will finish by saying I don't think we are truly in disagreement. I believe the language being used is confusing some reading the discussion, which is why I laid out what I just said for further clarification. It most certainly is against the rules to take a properly sleeved deck, split it into two piles, and begin banging them together like you're trying to use flint to start a fire. :lol: There are also less extreme examples of abusive shuffling. Just like many on this thread have encouraged players who seem to be overly picky about an opponent shuffling his/her deck, the same goes for an opponent manhandling your deck: call a judge! A player can cheat by stacking and a player can cheat by "accidentally on purpose" making sure a valuable card of yours is ruined to the point it can't be played and hoping you can't replace it and are DQed! I would hope neither is likely, but people do bizarre things for TCGs.:rolleyes:
 
Now I will finish by saying I don't think we are truly in disagreement. I believe the language being used is confusing some reading the discussion, which is why I laid out what I just said for further clarification.

Then I would like to explain myself better too. :smile: I was never talking about light damage to cards or sleeves through shuffling. I'm talking about the players that don't care about anything but winning and playing as fast as they can and are trying to mash shuffle the deck about 10 times in 10 seconds (you probably know the kind of people I'm talking about). Like how I was judging Cities a few weeks ago and I had to tell a player 3 times (all against different opponents) to slow down with shuffling the opponent's deck. Every time the first player would shuffle their deck then the other guy would mash shuffle it so fast and hard that he ended up ripping 3 of someone's sleeves and 2 cards flew out of the deck a good 5 inches and revealed them. Now I'm not being mean, but if you're told by a judge to slow down your shuffling speed 3 times because it's causing gameplay problems then I would sure hope they would pay for any cards they damage because of it. If a card gets damaged by a true accident then I agree that they shouldn't have to pay for it. But if someone is shuffling their opponent's deck unreasably then that's a different story.
 
Skitty said:
If a card gets damaged by a true accident then I agree that they shouldn't have to pay for it. But if someone is shuffling their opponent's deck unreasably then that's a different story.
Skitty (earlier post) said:
While cards aren't as expensive as other things in life, why shouldn't another person have to replace them if they damaged them, accedentally or not?

Backtracking much? What you said in your most recent post is much more reasonable than what you were saying before.

Also, for the sake of humanity, I sincerely hope you don't actually believe that accidentally creasing a Pokemon card is comparable to accidental vehicular manslaughter. While I understand how it can be tempting to exaggerate the severity of creasing a card to make an argument, there is a point where exaggeration goes too far.
 
Backtracking much? What you said in your most recent post is much more reasonable than what you were saying before.

Meh, that's why talking on the internet doesn't always come out as you meant it. Look at the examples I gave in that post, they were all accidents that were done by the carelessness of the person. Though they were still not meant to be done, they were still caused by the person not being as careful as they should have been.

Also, for the sake of humanity, I sincerely hope you don't actually believe that accidentally creasing a Pokemon card is comparable to accidental vehicular manslaughter. While I understand how it can be tempting to exaggerate the severity of creasing a card to make an argument, there is a point where exaggeration goes too far.

No, I don't think they're directly comparable at all. I was just giving some examples of larger scale damages in "real life" based on your post here.

Now to answer your question. If your opponent ruins a $30 card of yours when he or she is shuffling your deck, you are generally responsible for replacing it, except in extreme circumstances (like when your opponent agrees to replace it, or when the damage was intentional). Accidents happen, it's part of life.

You might not be pleased with this answer, but if you think about it, that's kind of how life works.
 
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