Slow play

[SteveP]

Let me first preface my examples be saying lively strategic plays fail to meat any definition of slow-playing or stalling. However, if your actions are unlively AND/OR non-strategic (no effect), that's when you're susceptable to being corrected or penalized. Even if you're making lively (quick) plays, that doesn't rule-out a penalty if the actions are considered by the judge to have no effect. You can argue all you want, but the judge might "see right through" your rationale.

- Asking your opponent to count his deck when there are still 20-30 cards left in his deck. Unless you are employing a deck-destruction strategy, the size of your opponent's deck is only valid during the late-game if it's obvious he only has a few cards left.

- Playing multiple Lux Balls, Poke Comms, Bebe's, etc., searching and shuffling your deck each time, but never retrieving a Pokemon. Certainly, reducing your hand-size might have a strategic impact, but if the time you took to search and shuffle your deck was merely used to reduce your hand-size, if you take too long, you're slow-playing or stalling.

I love Judge Judy's famous line that says "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!" Good judges can discern when players are performing unnecessary actions merely to eat clock time.

 

[PokePop]

Quick question regarding something that happened to a friend of mine at a recent State championship.

If you allow your opponent to go to the bathroom and time is called, is it out of the question to ask for a brief extension to make up for the time lost going to the bathroom? Would it be looked down upon to ask for an extension prior to allowing them to use the bathroom? Or should you just say no, and make them play it out.

The right way to do this is for the player to get permission and an extension from the judge at the time they need to go to the bathroom.

Oh, and for you Europeans.... "water closet"

 

[Biggie]

There's a shot clock in pokemon too. Like a maximum of 2 minutes to shuffle your deck, etc.

If you want to slowplay in basketball, you waste as much time as possible within the time limit.
If you want to slowplay in Pokemon, you waste as much time as possible within the time limit.

From the penalty guidelines 7.4. Game Tempo:

"In general, the following time limits for various game actions should be appropriate. The times given below are general guidelines; players attempting to compartmentalize their turn in order to use every second of the time allowed for the items below are almost certainly stalling and should be subject to the Unsporting Conduct: Severe penalties."

The times given are not there to tell you have much time you can waste, they are there to give people an idea of what times are considered typical.

 

[Jaeger]

Bullados: Loops are different and illegal without question becuase after done once they do anything else (obiviously things like Alakazam 4 are slightly different but the same basic idea)

LL: Thats is not an in game action

SteveP: The first one is very quesitonable but yes there are reasons for it. But I'll give you most likely a stall attempt. The second one a player has every right to play them one at a time for mutible reasons by no means should they need more than 10 seconds to shuffle though.

I just want to make it clear I'm not advocating stalling expecially blanted attempts. What I'm talking about is actions like retreating, Placing energy, or using other powers in a game a player seemingly has lost. All the before mentioned actions could have meaning even if it is not clear to the professor.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

From the penalty guidelines 7.4. Game Tempo:

"In general, the following time limits for various game actions should be appropriate. The times given below are general guidelines; players attempting to compartmentalize their turn in order to use every second of the time allowed for the items below are almost certainly stalling and should be subject to the Unsporting Conduct: Severe penalties."

The times given are not there to tell you have much time you can waste, they are there to give people an idea of what times are considered typical.

I just want to say, you have no idea how much respect I have for you guys that come on the boards and interact with the player base expecially on highly sensative topics like this.

-Jay

 

[SteveP]

Jaeger, just like the accused suspect might disagree with the jury's verdict and/or judge's sentence, players might disagree with a judge's ruling for slow-play or stalling. It really doesn't matter if you think your actions are lively and strategic. If the judge feels otherwise, there's not much you can do other than appeal. It doesn't matter how fast you perform the action either (ie. shuffling). Time is time -- nothing is instantaneous.

Per the rules:

- Players are entitled to about half the alloted time. If you're monopolizing the clock, regardless of what actions you're taking, the judge can call you for it.

- Players need to perform actions in a "lively" manner. Self-explanatory.

- Players need to perform actions that effect the game, actions that have a strategic and/or necessary value. This is obviously a subjective rule, but experienced judges CAN make this call.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself (and the official rules). Like Biggie said above, the rules/guidelines aren't there to tell you how to waste time. They are there to assist judges in ONE aspect of helping determine slow-playing or stalling. Other factors (like those I listed above) CAN trump your "typical" shuffling time.

 

[Jaeger]

I'm not debating the shuffling time, I'm saying your walking a fine line when your saying actions like Cosmic Power, droping energy, Telepassing, etc. are not lively and strageic they can easily have unforseeable effects. I'm not arguing the shuffling looking at the opponents discard more than once (first time maybe 10-25 seconds) Any time after that 10 tops. Shuffling late game shouldn't be more than 10 seconds. I'm not debating out of the game actions like shuffling, I'm talking in game actions like using Pokepowers, retreating, and dropping energy.

 

[NoPoke]

http://www.free-lyrics.org/The-Fun-...t-What-You-Do-Its-The-Way-That-You-Do-It.html

Winning on time is legitimate.
Playing to win on time may or may not be legitimate. A lively pace protects players from lots of problems, but as not every player is lively my own benchmark is moderate to lively.

I can't disagree with StevePs posts or with Jaegers, or with RyanVergels. If there is any disagreement between them then it is probably just perspective rather than substance.

 

[Jaeger]

http://www.free-lyrics.org/The-Fun-...t-What-You-Do-Its-The-Way-That-You-Do-It.html

Winning on time is legitimate.
Playing to win on time may or may not be legitimate. A lively pace protects players from lots of problems, but as not every player is lively my own benchmark is moderate to lively.

I can't disagree with StevePs posts or with Jaegers, or with RyanVergels. If there is any disagreement between them then it is probably just perspective rather than substance.

I honestly think NoPoke is right were all saying the same thing pretty much.

 

[SteveP]

...I'm not debating out of the game actions like shuffling, I'm talking in game actions like using Pokepowers, retreating, and dropping energy.

I sense that you put little-to-no legitimate value on this example in the guidelines:

- Making legal plays which have no effect on the game in progress to manipulate the time remaining in a match.

Your previous argument that any legal play effects the game, well, that contradicts the example in the guidelines.

Make your legal plays. But, if it's obvious that you're doing them to manipulate the time, don't be surprised if the judge finds one of your legal plays to "have no effect" and penalizes you.

 

[Jaeger]

I sense that you put little-to-no legitimate value on this example in the guidelines:

Your previous argument that any legal play effects the game, well, that contradicts the example in the guidelines.

Make your legal plays. But, if it's obvious that you're doing them to manipulate the time, don't be surprised if the judge finds one of your legal plays to "have no effect" and penalizes you.

Ok because I have never seen a good judge say using Cosmic Power is stalling trying calling it and see how quickly that gets a appealed/turned into POP.

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

Originally Posted by Penalty Guidelines - Unsporting Conduct - 7.6.2. Major (examples)
- Making legal plays which have no effect on the game in progress to manipulate the time remaining in a match.

He is taking it to mean "have no effect on game state" in which case he is resoundingly correct imo.
You're taking it to mean "on the outcome of the game" in which case you're correct, with caveats (since technically such actions impact the outcome of the game if they result in win on time, hence are covered by the rule as okay).

Just my $0.02.

 

[SteveP]

Ok because I have never seen a good judge say using Cosmic Power is stalling trying calling it and see how quickly that gets a appealed/turned into POP.

It CAN be used to stall if you take a moment to decide which two cards to bury THEN play a card like Cynthia's Feelings. In that context, Cosmic Power had absolutely no effect whatsoever, other than to eat clock.

Judges look at the big picture when determining whether you're stalling. That's why they typically observe your actions for a bit before they rule.

In a microscopic view, your legal actions might appear legit. But, when you pan-out to a broader view, a different picure may form.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

He is taking it to mean "have no effect on game state" in which case he is resoundingly correct imo.
You're taking it to mean "on the outcome of the game" in which case you're correct, with caveats (since technically such actions impact the outcome of the game if they result in win on time, hence are covered by the rule as okay).

Just my $0.02.

I do appreciate your $0.02. But, if we accept Jaeger's meaning, at any moment in time, any legal action (ie., power, trainer, attachment) effects the game-state, thus making the rule moot. By that premise, Jaeger can't be correct. Rules are not meaningless.

 

[nnaann]

It CAN be used to stall if you take a moment to decide which two cards to bury THEN play a card like Cynthia's Feelings. In that context, Cosmic Power had absolutely no effect whatsoever, other than to eat clock.

Judges look at the big picture when determining whether you're stalling. That's why they typically observe your actions for a bit before they rule.

In a microscopic view, your legal actions might appear legit. But, when you pan-out to a broader view, a different picure may form.

That could be used against an SP player to bait a Power Spray, but I see what you mean.

 

[The Dark Toxicroak]

It CAN be used to stall if you take a moment to decide which two cards to bury THEN play a card like Cynthia's Feelings. In that context, Cosmic Power had absolutely no effect whatsoever, other than to eat clock.

That completely untrue. In any situation you decide what to put under hoping to draw what you need. If you do then great you use a bebe's or something to get what you need and if not you may resort to other measures to draw it such as cynthia's feelings. You can't say they are trying to stall by doing this. Even if someone is just using it with 8 or more cards... They may have not decided whether or not to use it till after doing some other things being put into a position where it made the most sense.


PS you can't ask how many cards in your opponent's deck lol. It is not like he can pick it up and start counting them off afaik. Stupid obvious things like this are stalling. Actually doing things that make any sense are not at all.

 

[SteveP]

That completely untrue. In any situation you decide what to put under hoping to draw what you need...

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant to say burying two cards "and not drawing more because you had 6 or more left in your hand."

You're right. Drawing cards with Cosmic Power is always an effect, unless you have no deck and 6 cards in your hand, drawing the 2 cards you just buried.

 

[Jaeger]

Burying 2 cards and not drawing any can set me up for a better cosmic power next turn.

 

[prodigal_fanboy]

I dunno Steve. I'm just really leery of your stance as I see it as judges playing the game for players.

 

[SteveP]

Burying 2 cards and not drawing any can set me up for a better cosmic power next turn.

That's not my example. Burying 2, not drawing, then playing Cynthia's Feelings was my example of a non-effectual play, as weird as that example may be...

To catch slow-playing or stalling, you need to take off your blinders and see the bigger picture of what's happening, in the context of the three rules I stated above (not monopolizing the time, playing lively, and not making non-effectual legal plays to burn time). Failure in ANY of those areas, as determined by the judge, can be penalized.

I'm done here. Argue amongst yourselves about why you think some complex decks entitle you to use more game-time, about why your game-pace should be the standard for all players, and about why every legal action must be allowed if you need to waste some time.

 

[Box of Fail]

I don't take the limits as rules, merely guidelines. On multiple occasions I've had a REALLY tough time deciding on a move and as a result ate some clock. I do think situational leniency should be required of a judge (i.e. a potentially game-winning move)

 

[Jaeger]

SteveP I'm not disagreeing with the first 2 were in complete agreement there. Its the third one I don't really think a judge can accurately call stalling on. In your example (which I did miss quote you the first time, my bad) I might very well Cosmic Power attempting to set up a better one next turn. But in the middle reevalutate the sitation and play Cynthia's. How many times did you decide on a course of action than change your mind or revaluate the situation. Or maybe I would Cosmic trying to bait a power spray (yes people play that dumb) opponent doesn't spray so I do have decide what to bottom. All I'm saying is I can't defend looking at a discard pile for 30 seconds but I can come up with a reason for almost in situation you could have falling under the third example.