States and rogues

[Venjamin]

Rogue deck does not necessarily mean bad deck. Not when a bad deck is defined as something that has a hard time against the archetypes. Sorry, but if my rogue can knock most other rogues out, but still have issues with the 'three tops', then I'm still having a pretty good day. You're right - I may not completely overtake the world with my idea, but if it runs well for me, and relatively consistently, why should I -not- have pride, just because it can't stand up to mags?

Sorry, the 'anti-conformist' argument doesn't work here. There is no excuse to run a bad deck, you're completely right. But at the same time, who's job is it to define a bad deck?

No ones.

It's not very SoTG to say that someone's effort is completely failed. Give advice, give credit. No need to growl at someone for playing rogue. No need to growl at someone else for playing Archs, either. Yeah, this is a competitive game, but there's no real reason to get all uppity because some people are 'conforming' or 'anti-conforming', however you like to put it.

Right now, there is a distinct duo of top decktypes. GG / Mags are the heavy hitters, and of course, people want to have the 'best deck'. Me? I shoot for a deck that fits me. Something that forces another player to think about things they normally wouldn't have to. To me, a game, and a deck, is good if I learn something, regardless if I win or lose. If I have to really focus? Then it was -great-.

I say, ditch the argument that rogues are either bad or good. Rogues are rogues. They'll have ups, and they'll have downs, just like every other deck. I ran G/G for cities, and won... then ran G/G for another city and -tanked-, just 'cause I had a bad day. It happens to the best of us. Just remember that fun is the most important part of the game.

 

[3l3d33z]

Exactly, just play what fits your playing style. If that's "rogue" then so be it, and if that's "metagame" then noone is criticizing you either. I don't think anyone should concentrate on "being" rogue, or making a rogue deck. Don't try to be something you're not!

Whatever you're comfortable playing and whatever works for you is the best way to go. If that's GardyGallade then that's good, because that fits you and you succeed with that deck.


And well maybe everyone who is complaining about GG is just bitter! So what if a lot of people are playing it, and so what if you lost to 5 of them or if it won your cities or whatever.

If you are bitter about GG, maybe you're playing the game for the wrong reason.

You shouldn't be playing this game just to be the best, you should be playing it because you enjoy it, because it's fun and regardless of whether or not you come out on top, the friends you've made and the memories you have should be the most important. It should be fun experimenting and playing and going to tournaments.

There's nothing wrong with competition and competition can be fun as long as it's friendly...but I think some people are in it just to win it. ..Maybe that is where the swarm of Gardevoir decks came from in the first place! Who knows
Regardless, everyone should just concentrate on what they like and get better at what they do and how they play, and not worry about "countering" the metagame or finding the perfect deck to "beat" GG and Magmortar.

I hate to use myself as an example but it's all I can think of. I love playing my Venasaur/Venomoth deck. I know Magmortar is huge, and I don't think I've ever beat a single Gardevoir. But I'm still playing it ... because I like it, and because I have fun with it.
I remember I was playing Chris Cosenza (sorry if I mispelled) at a cities not too long ago and he was getting kindof frustrated because I was ahead and I kept flipping and healing and geting him with special conditions like sleep and burn...and then he would flip tails and I knew I was making him kinda mad, but then eventually he got happier, and he started laughing and he told me "you know what, i don't even care anymore if i win or lose, this is such a fun match."
I think that's what Pokemon is about. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just how I feel.



Have fun and make a deck you love and spend a lot of time on it and if you put a lot of heart into it, it'll show - regardless of whether you win or lose a match to Gardevoir, and regardless of whether or not youre a rogue or a metagamer - because most importantly, you'll have had a great game.

 

[TODDakaESTEBAN]

yeah but the point of this thread is to talk about what decks are going to COMPETE in states,

people are trying to talk about states and rogues on a cometitive level

this isn't the "why you should play fun decks at tournies" thread

 

[phoenixback4fire]

this isn't the "why you should play fun decks at tournies" thread

Thats not nice you

its for anything ! I just opened up a disscution on red face paint decks in general with ideas and what not

 

[3l3d33z]

this isn't the "why you should play fun decks at tournies" thread

well i was just voicing my opinion because that's what forums are for
i dont know if you just dont like what i have to say, but dont try and tell me MY ideas about rogue decks and the metagame dont matter.

the point of the thread is whatever the person that started it says it is:

its for anything ! I just opened up a disscution on rogue decks in general with ideas and what not

so i think i am perfectly in line with the "point" of this thread!

 

[bulbasnore]

I just like to build things like this with crazy ideas, you see! It really keeps me playing this game!!!:thumb:

I certainly agree with you, as far as the variety keeping my interest. In my 20s I was just so *YAWN* with every game because I'd seen it before a lot. With Pokemon its always fresh.

Shouldn't it be Pelipper, you guys confused me there for a minute.

Yah, hang in there! Its taken us 6 years to get people to spell Tyrouge correctly. It was worth it, though. Now no one spells it wrong.

 

[~`Flygon`~]

what is this poison.dec??

 

[Lucario EX]

what is this poison.dec??

Various combinations of Arbok, Weezing, Crobat, Toxicroak, and Cacturne PK.

 

[TODDakaESTEBAN]

i'm just saying your the only one on here admitting that you don't have good matchups with your deck but you play it anyway, and saying that winning doesn't matter at all

i'm not saying you don't have valid points and that your not agood player but most people here play competitively, and even this discussion on rogues, was tournament level discussion, it just doesn't make you look like your a serious pokemon player, your posts look more like fortune cookies than something that will make you look like you know a lot about pokemon, i'm not saying your not a good player or anything like that it just doesn't show that you have enough skill for your opinion to be respected, when you make it seem like your not a serious player

please don't be mad

i say this next part not to tiffany or to single anyone out, but i think the moral of this story for me is, to play what you like if you play something that loses because you like it, that shows IMO that you don't have the skill to make a good deck and still like it
SORRY to everyone that sticks with a deck that loses cause of SOTG, but having SOTG doesn't make you a good player and it proves your not because you would be playing a deck you like that was good and was still fun to play,

 

[toxictaipan]

i'm just saying your the only one on here admitting that you don't have good matchups with your deck but you play it anyway, and saying that winning doesn't matter at all

i'm not saying you don't have valid points and that your not agood player but most people here play competitively, and even this discussion on rogues, was tournament level discussion, it just doesn't make you look like your a serious pokemon player, your posts look more like fortune cookies than something that will make you look like you know a lot about pokemon, i'm not saying your not a good player or anything like that it just doesn't show that you have enough skill for your opinion to be respected, when you make it seem like your not a serious player

please don't be mad

i say this next part not to tiffany or to single anyone out, but i think the moral of this story for me is, to play what you like if you play something that loses because you like it, that shows IMO that you don't have the skill to make a good deck and still like it
SORRY to everyone that sticks with a deck that loses cause of SOTG, but having SOTG doesn't make you a good player and it proves your not because you would be playing a deck you like that was good and was still fun to play,

I don't find it fun to play ANYTHING any one else is playing. I like to be original, and copying a deck just because it wins is not original. Sure I could go to league this saturday and get all I need for a Gardilade deck. I could go to states and probally manage top 3, but I wont like it because I had to tell myself that I can't build a good 'nuff deck to win. I had to resort to playing the mainstream, just like every one else. And any one who plays just to win is pathetic... It's okay to lose, but I'm not saying that I or any one else should play to lose. I play to win, just not at an unreasonable level...

 

[TODDakaESTEBAN]

my point isn't that you should play someone elses ideas because they do well, my point is you should make your own deck, but make a good deck, if your deck doesn't do well you should be creative and make another one but one that's good, i'm saying that you don't have to want to win or play a deck you know will win but it doesn't make you any better of a player when you lose because it's your own idea, all it does is show that your ideas arn't good,

 

[phoenixback4fire]

i'm just saying your the only one on here admitting that you don't have good matchups with your deck but you play it anyway, and saying that winning doesn't matter at all

i'm not saying you don't have valid points and that your not agood player but most people here play competitively, and even this discussion on rogues, was tournament level discussion, it just doesn't make you look like your a serious pokemon player, your posts look more like fortune cookies than something that will make you look like you know a lot about pokemon, i'm not saying your not a good player or anything like that it just doesn't show that you have enough skill for your opinion to be respected, when you make it seem like your not a serious player

please don't be mad

i say this next part not to tiffany or to single anyone out, but i think the moral of this story for me is, to play what you like if you play something that loses because you like it, that shows IMO that you don't have the skill to make a good deck and still like it
SORRY to everyone that sticks with a deck that loses cause of SOTG, but having SOTG doesn't make you a good player and it proves your not because you would be playing a deck you like that was good and was still fun to play,

3l3d33z can pick up a deck in fact just make up a deck and run it with flying colors, The deck she has come up with now is AMAIZING and it beats my GG and the GG's in the deck help forums ....

 

[Zezeta]

I think it can be pretty hard sometimes to say who is a good player and who isn't. Take for example someone who is constantly trying out new decks at tournaments. Sometimes they win a lot of matches and other times they lose a lot. Then you have someone who only plays the mainstream decks and whats popular at the time. More then likely that person is going to be able to win a lot of matches because that deck is powerful in the format its in.


So who is the better player? Someone who creates new decks all the time and is a little inconsistent in their wins and loses or someone who just copies the popular deck at the time and wins a lot of matches.


To me its a little hard to differentiate between the two players skills and abilities, but I think we can all agree that to truly be considered one of the best you have to be able to come up with new decks that are consistently good. You need to continue to be creative and win a lot of your matches and we all know that that's a pretty big feat to accomplish.


Enough rambling. I just want to wish everyone good luck at States and heres to some great games and memories.

 

[Let Fire Fall]

This thread is about rogue decks that will be competitive at states, not fun decks. If you only play for fun then you can start a "States for Fun" thread.

 

[Zezeta]

The problem with talking about rogue decks that will be competitive at states is that many of the people here who have a rogue deck in mind and one that they think will be competitive will probably not talk about it here. The element of surprise is one of the reasons why competitive rogue decks can be, well competitive.

 

[Scizor]

It's nice to make your own deck and WIN with your own deck, sure. I think all of you would be surprised how much the decks YOU play today and have seen win BEFORE have been through so many great players minds. So much goes into a WINNING deck, more than most people can comprehend, and I'm not talking about BRs or CCs, either.

That being said, Gardevoir/Gallade and Magmortar will win a lot of States, not only because they are great decks, but because of the players piloting them. The best lists win more on average than not. Just because they're archtypes doesn't mean there can't be surprises in the list. What Pokegym may see as a tech for GG could be seen as a neccessity to others. They are great combos, decks, whatever you want to call them, and they're going to be hard to stop consistently with our current card pool.

 

[~`Flygon`~]

Our card pool isnt good right now,but think if we had all the cards from the spoiler and DP5,then creativity would be better nd it would several great decks instead of a few right??

 

[Venjamin]

Why can't rogue decks be fun decks? You can be competitive and have fun.

Honestly:

i say this next part not to tiffany or to single anyone out, but i think the moral of this story for me is, to play what you like if you play something that loses because you like it, that shows IMO that you don't have the skill to make a good deck and still like it

That has nothing at -all- to do with it. You're not being offensive, but to say that to play what you like is bad because the deck is 'bad' is by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in my life [concerning pokemon]. Some decks require constant focus to get it to a point where it is usable, then complete, then perfected. Why on earth would I want to give up on a deck that's just usable? It took me almost a month to get my poison deck to place where it moves quickly enough to eat the set up decks, and with a line that I think fits it perfectly.

If I gave up back in the early stages just because it's 'bad', what kind of player would that make me? I think it takes more skills to take mediocre cards and make them work for you than it does to take the best cards in the game and simply work them all together.

That's why there -are- rogue decks in the first place. It takes time and effort to make a good rogue deck, and if you have to settle for something that is widely accepted as 'the best', then where does personal creativity come in to play?

Note: This is NOT a pot shot to people who play the archetypes. I've seen all sorts of incredible variations to the archetypes that makes playing against them a great experience! Just because it's archetype doesn't mean it doesn't have a rogue streak in it. The only time it gets aggravating is when it comes down to playing the exact same five versions of _________ deck in the same swiss round, and I think that's what rogue-players are mostly complaining about.

Right now the pool has expanded to a point where I feel there's a good possibility for about six decks to take prominence, which in and of itself will seriously help the morale of the players.

 

[TODDakaESTEBAN]

3l3d33z can pick up a deck in fact just make up a deck and run it with flying colors, The deck she has come up with now is AMAIZING and it beats my GG and the GG's in the deck help forums ....

i was just stating my opinion, and i'm glad you guys stated your opinions, i just feel like you guys are bragging about tiffany in defense of me arguing with her point, but theres no need to defend her on the gym against me, no one cares that tiffany's ideas are bad or think any less of her, you don't have to bring up tiffanys skill and decks to defend your public image and say her ideas are good, because i will just point out some of her bad ideas,like straight clefable, and putting suicune as an anti mag tech in her buttrfree absol deck, like 3 days ago i won't name anymore but i don't see what you guys gain by coming on trying to act like tiffany is wicked good all of the sudden, i don't think people would like tiffanys ideas if you posted them because a lot of times they don't seem to go together or have any strategy, but i guess you could both prove me wrong by posting her new deck, and if it has a strat ( a valid competitive level one) i will gladly apologize, i don't think using her beating you as an example is a valid way to prove how good she is because she has always beat you with every deck she's played, but i doubt she would beat con laying gallade or anyone else, playing a tier 1 deck i will back that up anytime, andrew stewart our friend played for like 3 months last year and IMO the deck he came up with shows a lot more skill and comlex stategy than anything i've seen tiff play, but maybe that's not her "style", IDC really, you guys are my friends i don't want to make you mad but coming on claiming tiffany is amazing in argument with me does nothing but provoke me to argue more

i don't even know why we are arguing about this i guess i'm just argumentative, and mean but i just have my opinions and if you didn't get so defensive on the gym in front of people you don't know or care about and don't know and care about you, i probably wouldn't keep trying to show people why youre wrong i'm sorry for even bringing up half the stuff i said but the last way i'm going to lose an argument is by being told how amazing tiffany and her decks are, no offense meant because i would never disrespect you guys skills or ideas you guys are both skilled, I DON'T FEEL I'M THE ONE THAT BROUGHT ANY OF THOSE THINGS INTO QUESTION


as for states and rogues, i don't think it has to be fighting resistance to do well, because i've played against a lot of people with resistance and it hasn't hurt me too bad, the fishin engine is a good play because it hurts gallade, high hp is a must for any deck to be good, because the two top decks can do a lot of damage easily, i don't see anything under 110 for the main attacker having much a chance, feral can easily knock out puny pokemon too so high hp is just law , bannette is cool but i doubt it will stand up with even more heavy hitting decks after the new set

to flygon yeah the card pool is bad but i play against several different rogues a day over redshark and i've see some good ideas, i hope to see some more


venjamin, i just take personal difference to your argument when the player isn't on the lvl of making good decks, some people make bad choices, i just don't think your statement in defense of rogue players apply to people that play rogue decks that don't work because they don't know very much about how to build a deck, and just use the originality of them as a defense mechanism in reponse to being called out as not a good player, i just think that there is a big range in quality between rogue decks and even though everyone's points may be valid about rogues, some rogue decks are just noob decks and don't fall into the same category as other rogues like destiny, the whole reason i'm so aggressive about this is that i don't feel noob decks and tier 1 rogue decks should be defended in the same breath,

i'm glad that let fire fall agreed with me because i've been a little more mean than necessary but i feel that my point is valid

 

[Yoshi-]

I think Gardevoir / Gallade will still be great Cards with GE, but IMO not the way they were used in G&G.
Gardevoir IMO is nearly as good as Pidgeot was last season, Gallade makes an excellent early game sweeper (keep away any T2 Decks etc), you've got free switches, power locking etc.
But there are by far better ways to use them then by just sticking them together with a starter and nothing else.
The Point is that GG needs a partner to work with, that can make up for its weaknesses. Gardevoirs power gives you such an insane speed and and so much consistancy that you can build up a second line without problems.

I never really understood why no one seemed to use GG with another Line, and why everyone used that stupid Absol, i know its annoying, but unless you are really lucky (chipping off the only supporters your opponent has, consistantly) you probably won't stop your opponent from getting started.
And there is a starter that just laughts about Absol and that no Absol can keep up with, unfortunately everyone seems to forget about pre-DP cards :/

If a deck can use GG and still be a rouqe deck, then I won the biggest CC in germany using a rouqe deck, and beat both GG versions although mostly getting a terrible start and my opponent getting a great start.(althought all games where VERY close)
Just think about different ways of combining great cards like GG, its not that hard^^

I guess the standart GG will get slaughtered by unown anyway, so if you're really desperate just combine something that has a bigger damage output than GG with some unowns and GG will get some major Problems. Empoleon IMO is a good way to go in beating GG, it can 2HKO everything in GG but GG as major problems 2HKOing consistantly in return. And Magmotar will have Problems with this one too, cause WP doesn't solve the weakness problem entirely, although it helps a lot.

One last tipp in general, don't forget about the pre DP cards, they are still there and there combo possibilitys beat the DP cards, although they loose in direct comparisment.