This game needs better prize support

[M_Liesik]

That isn't a very good business practice.

I agree. However, I think its important that players who are comparing Pokemon prizing to Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG prizing shift their paradigm a bit.

YGO/MTG have 1 age division. Pokemon has 3.

Assume for a minute that UDE, WotC, and PUI have identical budgets of $900,000 for premier event prizing (they don't, but you need to imagine that they do for the purposes of this exercise). YGO/MTG prizes are always going to end up being more significant than Pokemon prizes because they don't have to split their budget in 3. Where they give $30,000 in prizes to 1 world champion, we give $10,000 to 3 world champions. Where they split up $120,000 in prizes among the top 8, we split it up among 3 top 8s.

So, while this isn't a "love it or leave it" comment, it is a "you need to fully understand the differences in OP structures, and make an informed decision as to whether or not those differences still make Pokemon worth playing."

 

[Top Cut Comics]

I think that pretty much sums up Jimmy's point, though a little more politely. :wink:

Yes Mike, Thank you....

Its people like Ardoptres who are not only bad for small business such as mine. Players of this caliber are also bad for the game as a whole. You will NOT get an arguement from Ardoptres regarding your point. Mostly cause of your position within the game. :wink:

I remember the days when I would just outright blast someone as soon as I disagreed with them. Only to find that 3 days later and 4 more pages of posts, I was clearly wrong. I didnt understand what my impact was. Not only on that paricular topic, but on the game as whole. Maybe, just maybe, Ardoptres will mature enough to admit his ramblings are just that. Rambling. Being on the other side, it has changed my views. Answering without thinking is clealy bad.

Players such as Ardoptres are the very reason Banginbox no longer posts here. Ignorance and eagerness to insult at the drop of a hat, will continue to drive the elite as well as NEW players, not only from this board, but from the game as well. I was that player a few years ago. I understand that now. I had to make a the hard choice and start doing the right thing. I am hopeful I can make a much more positive contribution to the game in my current position.

Polite or not, Ardoptres is determined to insult everyone that disagrees with his infantile opinion. He was clearly getting what he was dealing in this thread. I hate resorting to my old ways, thus the reason for staying away from this site. It clearly bring out the worst in people.

People......This is much more than a game. It IS a business FIRST!!! Without the business, there would be no game. Younger players dont always understand that. I do not charge for my league. It does attract people into my store. I do however charge for Draft events, as well as modified events. I will continue to do so in order to keep my establishment open. Prize support will be equal to, if not more than what I collect per event.

Ardoptres, I have supported you in the past, and will do so again in the future. This however is clearly not a topic you have any idea about. Stick to bashing people in other threads. It seems to be working for you.

Logical replies are welcome...

Jimmy

 

[drmario]

I agree. However, I think its important that players who are comparing Pokemon prizing to Yu-Gi-Oh or MTG prizing shift their paradigm a bit.

YGO/MTG have 1 age division. Pokemon has 3.

Assume for a minute that UDE, WotC, and PUI have identical budgets of $900,000 for premier event prizing (they don't, but you need to imagine that they do for the purposes of this exercise). YGO/MTG prizes are always going to end up being more significant than Pokemon prizes because they don't have to split their budget in 3. Where they give $30,000 in prizes to 1 world champion, we give $10,000 to 3 world champions. Where they split up $120,000 in prizes among the top 8, we split it up among 3 top 8s.

So, while this isn't a "love it or leave it" comment, it is a "you need to fully understand the differences in OP structures, and make an informed decision as to whether or not those differences still make Pokemon worth playing."

So maybe Pokemon should give you a bigger budget. :biggrin:

 

[SteveP]

Wal-mart is bad for many businesses. Same goes for the internet. Yet, business at these places is booming, even in this depressed economy. That says tons.

Toys-R-Us used to host leagues in our area. No more. Why? Because their Pokemon prices were too high. (See MikeL's story.)

Our local game store (where Pokemon is held) used to hold Magic leagues and tournaments. No more. Why? Because the internet prices were too low for the store to compete.

We are ALL guilty of not supporting our FLGS (friendly local game store), in one form or another. It's the Wal-mart/internet syndrome. We ALL want something for less (or free). In the final anaylsis, we pay, one way or another, by paying higher prices/fees, or watching our FLGS go out of business.

 

[poke_master2008]

People dont play Pokemon just for the prizes. Most people play because it is something to do to have fun while staying out of trouble and such. Look at the people on this forum. How many of them have actually complained about the prize support? Some here and some there but the majority of people on here play for fun. You dont see people come to pokemon tournaments and be like "oh the prizes stink im gunna quit this game". You see people go to tournaments to have fun, hang out with friends and for other reasons (ex. fighting parents, get away from stressful places for a few hours etc.)

Imagine if pokemon started making people play in tournaments. With the economy as it is some people would have to stop going to tournaments (even if its $5.00 some families have 3-5 people playing and that $15-$25 that could be spent on bills or food rather than play in a tournament) and you would see a lot of the same decks because those are the decks winning becuase you would only play to win. Yes if they charge you to play the prize support would be somewhat better (Like Leisik said, Pokemon has 3 age groups were yu-gi-oh has 1 age group) but it wouldnt be much better. $5 entry fee x 60 people (all 3 age groups together - average number here where i live) = $300. Which is really only $100 per age group which wouldnt do much to the prize support.

Tournaments right now charge nothing for entry fee but they give away pretty much free booster packs if you do good enough. Which i wouldnt complain about.

 

[PokePop]

I was about to lock this topic, but I see MikeL has brought it back somewhat on topic.
If it can continue on topic and respectful, it will remain open.
Otherwise, it will be locked.

Related story.
Years ago when i was a kid, I was in a comics store in NYC, Supersnipe (since closed).
I was asking after some back issues of some comic or another and the store owner had them at such and such a price.
Another person in the store said "I have those. I can sell them to you for less".

The store owner immediately grabbed a bat that he had behind the counter and chased the person our of his store.
One of the best lessons I ever learned about retail.
The store owner acted as if he was being robbed and assualted.
And he was.
Game store owners are having a very rough time right now.
Realize that what they sell, every single one of us could live without. No one "needs" what they sell.
Respect how hard it is for them to keep their business going, especially in these times.
Whatever they have to do to keep their doors open, God bless them.
Maybe some of them could make smarter choices in how they try to earn money, but the bottom line is thta they are providing a service to all of us that we would miss if they weren't there.

 

[M_Liesik]

All I want to see is that the $5 I'm paying goes to good use. If I'm paying $5 to play, I want to at least walk out with 1 booster. Why should the less skilled players pay $5 just to support the better players for normal league play? During Tournaments is where skill should be rewarded. League should be used for bettering your deckbuilding and have less risk of losing your money for something that should be free to begin with.

It sounds like you guys are having a tournament every week, instead of league free play. That seems like a bit of overkill. I think once or twice a month is more than sufficient for this sort of thing.

When I was still playing TCGs competitively, a group of TOs in my area came to a consensus on how to charge for and prize events that was fair to the store, the top cut, and the rest of the players.

Every player pays $6.

Once the event begins, the TO buys as many boosters as possible from the store.

Once the last Swiss round is complete, every player that doesn't make the cut gets 1 booster.

The remaining boosters are divided among the top finishers, based on final standing.

Assuming 10 players and $3 per pack, you're looking at 20 packs. With a t4, the bottom 6 each get a pack and the t4 split the remaining 14 packs (6/4/2/2, for example). The more players you have, the bigger the prizes get. We used to pull 30 players. With a t8, we were splitting 38 packs in the finals.

The store owner loved seeing us, because he was guarnateed income on a slow night. If you didn't make the cut, you still got to play a few rounds and got a booster for your efforts. If you made the cut, you at least got your money back in the cost of boosters, possibly more. Everyone walked away happy.

I'd recommend suggesting that to your League Leader. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to play in a tournament that didn't do prizing this way. :wink:

Years ago when i was a kid...

Shouldn't that be "Many, many, many years ago when I was a kid..."?

 

[Austino]

Actually, I have been talking to the LL most of the day about this and will have this successfully changed within the next few weeks!

She's talking to the store about the changes and we're going to go to a monthly schedule of having the first three saturdays as free league play with small or no prizes. On the last week of the month, we'll have a $5-$10 tournament for packs.

 

[old man]

Again:

If players are paying $5 per week to play, then prize support should be larger than somewhere that doesn't charge for league. If a league charges $5 to play, then why are tournaments free? Why do the events cancel out the fee that we normally pay? What's odd, is that there is BETTER prize support on the events we DON'T have to pay for! I pay $5 for barely any packs, but can win 18 for free. It makes no sense that these places allow free tournaments that are larger events taking up more space and attracting a larger crowd, but not free league play where just regulars attend.

Prize output needs to be proportionally distributed.

There have been many things you have said that I've wanted to respond to, and here is just one of them. This is directed at Austino -
League play every week is free. It the local weekly tournament that you are paying $5 for. You do not have to enter that. That $5 fee goes to prize support to cover the stores costs of buying the packs.

Now I do not think that the rate of pack distribution at the local saturday tournament is quite right myself. I agree that for the $5 entry fee every player should get a pack. I also feel that the better players always winning, getting more packs does not help out the less skilled players improve.

Now about the free tournaments you're talking about where there are 2-4 times more players than a normal Saturday, one reason is because it's free to the player and another is I pay the venue for the "space" for the tournament. The store you're talking about & most others need to charge something or else they'll go out of business. Even when they do, some stores still fold. In this area look at 4th Street Boutique or Drakes Place. They charged for their weekly tournaments but had other problems. Drakes place was free league & 4th Street charged like $5 a season for league.

If you would like to discuss this further, talk to me this Saturday at the prerelease.

 

[ShadowCard]

M_Liesik, I really like your tournament idea. It's a win for the store (making money and moving merchandise) and it is a win for all players. Even if they only earn 1 pack for $6, that is better than playing in 6 $1 tournaments and not getting anything. In the 1 pack could be something easily tradable or usable. I'll run it by the league peoples and see what they think.

What do people feel would be an adequate increase in prize support....to what level?

Like you said, Booster Packs would not really be worth making additional prizes. Yes, booster packs should be a prize, but adding more booster packs is not what I'm looking for.
I would say that "cool pokemon merchandise" should be added to the top 8 prizes, not only 1st place. Things like playmats, hats, notebooks, "top cut" stamped promos, card sleeves, deck boxes, backpacks or bags, Pokegym dice, etc, whatever "cool pokemon merchandise" is . Something that players could take back to league and show those players who didn't go to the tournament what can be won at tournaments. Also something that the players can hold onto and identify as having earned at the tournament, like a souvenir. Something more memorable than more booster packs.

YGO/MTG have 1 age division. Pokemon has 3.

That's a good point. I definitely don't want to play against 12 year olds for that trip to Nationals. Parents would probably not like that too much.

 

[Articjedi]

We've started doing this at our league every other week, it's not a bad way to drum up business. The league leader even donated those old burger king gold-plated thingys from the first pokemon movie as a prize for first. I found a bunch of old electabuzz best of promos from my old professor package when WOTC left the game and added them to the pile, too.

We charge $5 as the fee, but you get a pack at the end, plus we make league free for entering instead of charging a dollar. Not a bad deal.

 

[drmario]

The store owner immediately grabbed a bat that he had behind the counter

That is just a little bit scary.

 

[PokemansForGeeks]

You know, the fact that we even get ANY prize support is great considering tourneys are free to enter....

Altho I do miss the paid trips that were obtainable via Gym Challenges....

 

[Mew]

You know, the fact that we even get ANY prize support is great considering tourneys are free to enter....

Altho I do miss the paid trips that were obtainable via Gym Challenges....

Sigh...! They charged $5 for gym challenges too. Didnt' they? I can't remember.

 

[SPARTA]

They didn't charge for gym challenges.

 

[pinkertonfan]

We need more mats and paid trips.

 

[edwarpy]

Alright, this ends now.

Prize support at your league has nothing to do with organized play. League Leaders make their own prices. My league is absolutely 100% free of charge. If your league is 5 bucks, then your LEAGUE LEADER should be the one you should complain to for he is the one putting that price on you. OP doesn't. Ergo, you cannot complain to them about the price support.

Hear, hear Scipio! You think all my trainers gather 'round because of the 1.00 worth of POP pack
cardboard I give out each week? Nope. 'Prizetime!', means real prizes, nothing to do with POP.
It's more likely the $10-15 worth of actual cool stuff we ship every week. You think it matters?
You bet. Our league are such givers, we have kids asking if they can run prizetime next week and
give away their cards! You think it matters? Yeah. After nine months of a brand new league we
had the biggest prerelease turnout in the state:

40 x 25 = 800 smackeros. POP investment = $20, maybe.

With other product we buy, that's and easy $1000 where there was nothing before....

 

[Ho Megas Alexandros]

Master of the lake knows his Gym'
Kudos to you sir.

Also I tried to look up Prize support for Yugioh. Not sure Im getting all the information I can, but from what I found the top 8 players at regionals each win a new playmat
http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/yugioh/en/wannaduel/regionals/default.aspx

Please tell me that isnt everything you win at a regional yugioh event.

The first place prize for their national championship:
Travel and accommodations to Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME World Championships held in Berlin, Germany. High-end laptop computer, a complete set of Light of Destruction , $1,500 Best Buy gift card, Playstation 3, a magnificent trophy, and a booster box of the most current Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME product.

 

[poke_master2008]

The first place prize for their national championship:
Travel and accommodations to Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME World Championships held in Berlin, Germany. High-end laptop computer, a complete set of Light of Destruction , $1,500 Best Buy gift card, Playstation 3, a magnificent trophy, and a booster box of the most current Yu-Gi-Oh! TRADING CARD GAME product.

The cost for all that? About $1500 (USD) cuz thats how much a deck that will win will cost you. Not to mention like previously stated Yugioh doesnt have but 1 age group (everyone) so they dont have to devide up prizes like pokemon does.

I would rather spend $200 TOPS for a deck that win rather than $1500 for a deck that wins and then have to play it 5 times in a 7 round tournament (Tele-DAD) and have a good chance of not even topping the tourny.

 

[Ardoptres]

Do you go into a music store and play your own CD's on there equipment? Would you go into a Mcdonalds with your own food and attempt to cook it there?

If they let me, I might.

When I was younger and didn't really understand how a game store works, there were two shops within a block of each other. Store A had play space, and charged $3 per pack. Store B had no play space, and charged $2.50 per pack. Can you guess what I did? That's right; I bought packs at Store B, and then wandered over to Store A to open them with my friends.

I spent hours playing in Store A, rarely ever buying anything from there. Apparently, a lot of other people did too. The store ended up instituting some new policies, designed to combat this. Unfortunately, it was too little too late and he went out of business. Store B saw a sharp drop in business because there wasn't a location drawing players to the area anymore. After about two months Store B added some play space and upped their prices to $2.75 to help offset the loss of retail space, but there were never the same crowds.

The moral of the story here is that if players are using space in the store to play, but don't buy from the retailer whose space they're playing in, the retailer has to come up with some way to keep making his business work. Certainly, the owner of Store A should have been a bit more savvy and planned better from the get go, but he was new to the industry and didn't know any better.

I think that pretty much sums up Jimmy's point, though a little more politely.

I take this is directed at me?

Most of it has nothing to do with what me and Clay were talking about though. Just like Jimmy’s post.
Here is what Clay said:

Obviously it is used for other things/events during the week, but I can guarantee that most of the time that space is empty...not generating any money for the store at all.

Ah. So what both you and Jimmy are talking about is not the same as what we were talking about. What we were talking about is space that is hardly ever used. It isn’t fair, that those few people who use it, has to pay what the store losses by not using the space while it isn’t used.

If the space is used for playing all the time, I think it’s totally fine to charge a fee. It just wasn’t what Clay and me were talking about.

YGO/MTG have 1 age division. Pokemon has 3.

Assume for a minute that UDE, WotC, and PUI have identical budgets of $900,000 for premier event prizing (they don't, but you need to imagine that they do for the purposes of this exercise). YGO/MTG prizes are always going to end up being more significant than Pokemon prizes because they don't have to split their budget in 3. Where they give $30,000 in prizes to 1 world champion, we give $10,000 to 3 world champions. Where they split up $120,000 in prizes among the top 8, we split it up among 3 top 8s.

Good point.

Its people like Ardoptres who are not only bad for small business such as mine. Players of this caliber are also bad for the game as a whole.

Please explain how ”people like me” can be bad for small businesses.
Players of my caliber bad for the game? Again making assumptions on how I am. You should really stop with that, I already told you earlier.

You will NOT get an arguement from Ardoptres regarding your point. Mostly cause of your position within the game.

Done and done.

Polite or not, Ardoptres is determined to insult everyone that disagrees with his infantile opinion. He was clearly getting what he was dealing in this thread. I hate resorting to my old ways, thus the reason for staying away from this site. It clearly bring out the worst in people.

I admit that I unsulted Prof Clay. Had he not said ” If there is no fee then you can spend all day long at their store, never spending a cent, using their light, heat/air conditioning, chairs and tables they paid for..basicly stealing from them.”, i would never have insulted him at all, unlike you who outright blasts me as soon as you have something to say. Maybe your halo isn’t shining as bright as you think, unless you don’t think calling me or what I am saying utterly stupid and telling me to grow up isn’t insulting. Because then i never insulted YOU.