Ways to Approach the Game

[Rikko145]

The first paragraph meant that according to the article "Playing to Win," I'm a scrub because I'll refuse to play a deck for no reason better than "I don't like it."

I suppose the difference in opinion is that I don't see a decklist as my creative property. I don't have any sense of ownership over it, and I certainly have no legal rights to it. Furthermore, I'm too nice to play competitively - I'd rather share my list and help other people than keep it a secret (and thus more effective).

On the other hand, I wouldn't condone taking a list wholesale and claiming that you came up with it on your own. I'd be a little offended by that, but a modified or even verbatim list that you credit the creator for seems absolutely fine to me.

And as we've both said, it's not like it takes all the work out of building a deck. You still have to be able to adapt it to your own playstyle and meta before it'll actually be effective.

Regardless, it's a difference in opinion, and I've acknowledged I'm in the minority.

Most people will not play a deck just because they don't like the style.

But who credits the creator? It makes them sound bad, because it is bad. And changing a couple cards doesn't make it modified. Modified is changing several cards to fit your needs.

I said it DOES take the work out of deckbuilding. You still have to adapt, but netdecking doesn't allow for it! When you have power that you don't know how to control, you can't effectively curb it.

And playing the "minority card to help your argument is just wrong. :nonono:

 

[Setstage]

I dont really care who plays what... but its very sad to see people who dont make there own decks. I'ts like a chef copying recipes... i mean is he a real chef? or is he just a cheap chef? I mean is he actualy ofering growth to the chef community? I dont think so. He rely s on other chefs to be good. Thats sad

Ok I am ready to take a stab at this metaphor.

Vaporeon is a chef. Now does every chef HAVE to add something to the community, not that he can't try but is it really mandated that he contribute to chefhood? No. Why is this. Because some chefs just cook for themselves and family or friends. They aren't in a chef competition where victory is clearly defined. You can't compare working in a kitchen to the TV show Chopped or Top Chef. If someone on chopped uses a recipe he did not make and blatantly declares that he didn't he can still do well, why is this. Because what makes a contest winning chef is his performance not that he had the most "Super Cool Combo Recipe". It doesn't matter if Tacos taste great and tapioca pudding tastes great, just because some chef akin to vaporeon combined them doesn't make that person a better chef than the person who used a generic burrito recipe.

TL;DR
You don't have to have the most unique or even best recipe to be the best chef, you just have to cook better than all the other chefs. Period.

 

[ALEXARD]

The best cook in the world is the one that can make a shoe taste better than a T-Bone, fancy ingredients indeed can`t beat experience and a good performance, but the people described are not picking the best methods, they are picking the best ingredients, if the ingredients taste good by themselves, no matter how bad or unexpirenced the cook is, it will taste decently good, buy the best to win is just lame.

So, why are top players considered good if they are just copying stuff someone else invented, In my opinion, good players can win with EVERYTHING, because they have years of experience, and an ability to build decks that set up the right amounts of an specific card to pull out the strategy needed, no matter how doozy the situation turns out.

In the last WC, I consider better players the ones that got to top cut with Torterra or Regigigas, than the champion who won with a Luxchomp, he did beat up other bad users of Luxchomp wich, for some unexplained reason actually felt proud for losing to the champion, but the other 2 didn`t need an overrated deck to beat them and place top, those Luxchomp users who lost to them felt ashamed instead, because they lost to someone that used their brain instead of their money to build something different that was able to win just by being ideal for their playstyle.

 

[Master Entei]

The best cook in the world is the one that can make a shoe taste better than a T-Bone, fancy ingredients indeed can`t beat experience and a good performance, but the people described are not picking the best methods, they are picking the best ingredients, if the ingredients taste good by themselves, no matter how bad or unexpirenced the cook is, it will taste decently good, buy the best to win is just lame.

So, why are top players considered good if they are just copying stuff someone else invented, In my opinion, good players can win with EVERYTHING, because they have years of experience, and an ability to build decks that set up the right amounts of an specific card to pull out the strategy needed, no matter how doozy the situation turns out.

In the last WC, I consider better players the ones that got to top cut with Torterra or Regigigas, than the champion who won with a Luxchomp, he did beat up other bad users of Luxchomp wich, for some unexplained reason actually felt proud for losing to the champion, but the other 2 didn`t need an overrated deck to beat them and place top, those Luxchomp users who lost to them feel ashamed instead, because they lost to someone that used their brain to built something different that was able to win just by being ideal for their playstyle.

Even the best restaurant in the world doesn't serve shoes. Know why? Because a good T-Bone beats a shoe, not matter how well prepared, any time. Why serve shoes when you can serve steaks?
I'd say the best cook in the world would be the one who makes the best T-bone.

Let's face it, the cardpool for Pokemon is so small that it can't give a rogue to everyone, much less a working one. That Sharpedo disruption deck might be cool, but it won't win stuff because Sharpedo just isn't good enough. The current format brings down some rogues too, even if they were pretty good otherwise. HGSS-On pretty much eliminates everything that's weak to Fire right from the start, just because Reshiram and Emboar are so good. There goes all of those nice Grass decks you were building. Or, you'll have to put in something like a new Stage2 line to counter, and that will make the deck worse against everything else.

You can build a rogue and hope that you don't run into anything that destroys it, or you could just run ReshiBoar and not let it go so much on luck.
Posted with style...

 

[baby mario]

In the last WC, I consider better players the ones that got to top cut with Torterra or Regigigas, than the champion who won with a Luxchomp,

Both Torterra and Gigas were archetypes, just like Luxchomp. The people who ran them used them because of the favourable Luxchomp match up (among other things). Not out of some desire to be 'original' or show their skill by playing an inferior or cheaper deck. They played to win just like any SP player.

he did beat up other bad users of Luxchomp wich, for some unexplained reason actually felt proud for losing to the champion,

He beat 'bad' Luxchomp players at Worlds did he? I was there. I know who he played. You have no idea what you are talking about (and that's putting it politely).

but the other 2 didn`t need an overrated deck to beat them and place top, those Luxchomp users who lost to them felt ashamed instead, because they lost to someone that used their brain instead of their money to build something different that was able to win just by being ideal for their playstyle.

It was nothing to do with money.

It was nothing to do with using their brain.

It's Worlds. Every player picks the deck they believe will give them the best chance of winning.

 

[Moxinumon]

Well all play to win, i just think its sad that some players need other peoples ideas to win. There is very little player growth. I mean when i loose to a netdecked "deck" i dont even feel bad cuz i know my oponent didnt think of it. When I see a non internet applyed tech in the game, thats when I feel he is OK. And by the way i think its good to mention somthing here... Theres a diference in experience with

Net deckers and deck builders. And in my opinion, a deck builder has much more player growth and progress than a net decker. (continuing MY OPINION) if most players started deck building and later on grabing techs, ideas and tips from online many many other red face paint decks whould appear.

 

[ALEXARD]

Even the best restaurant in the world doesn't serve shoes. Know why? Because a good T-Bone beats a shoe, not matter how well prepared, any time. Why serve shoes when you can serve steaks?
I'd say the best cook in the world would be the one who makes the best T-bone.

Let's face it, the cardpool for Pokemon is so small that it can't give a rogue to everyone, much less a working one. That Sharpedo disruption deck might be cool, but it won't win stuff because Sharpedo just isn't good enough. The current format brings down some rogues too, even if they were pretty good otherwise. HGSS-On pretty much eliminates everything that's weak to Fire right from the start, just because Reshiram and Emboar are so good. There goes all of those nice Grass decks you were building. Or, you'll have to put in something like a new Stage2 line to counter, and that will make the deck worse against everything else.

You can build a rogue and hope that you don't run into anything that destroys it, or you could just run ReshiBoar and not let it go so much on luck.
Posted with style...

The best restaurants in the world will serve the shoe if the flavor proves to be worthy to taste, they sell the best dishes in the world after all, they dont care much about the origin, even if is the testicle of a horse or the eggs of a scary looking fish,is a task that only a true genius of the cooks can pull out with unmatched SKILL and dedication.

Even without Emboar, grass pokemon are quite... sissy, attacks that hit with less than 80 damage and require 4 energy are never gonna work, jumpluff cant beat the 130+ HP pokemon in this format... they are never built to win with big hits, fire pokemon on the other hand are able to take down bulky water pokemon even if they are weak to them with 4 energy or less.

Both Torterra and Gigas were archetypes, just like Luxchomp. The people who ran them used them because of the favourable Luxchomp match up (among other things). Not out of some desire to be 'original' or show their skill by playing an inferior or cheaper deck. They played to win just like any SP player.



He beat 'bad' Luxchomp players at Worlds did he? I was there. I know who he played. You have no idea what you are talking about (and that's putting it politely).



It was nothing to do with money.

It was nothing to do with using their brain.

It's Worlds. Every player picks the deck they believe will give them the best chance of winning.

I know my english is not that good... but shouldn`t you say had instead of was? Anyway so many luxchomps and yet so many lost, the best luxchomp was crowned, and either regigigas or torterra cant be called counters, zangoose with expert belt was a better way to KO Garchomp C with only 1 energy and a body that prevented poison from toxicroak G, Regigigas required 3, had a x2 weakness to the frog, is pretty hard to believe they had a chance against them.

Archetypes are usually abundant like LuxChomp or SableDos, but unlike the ones previously mentioned, those Different decks were crowned champions in only 1 country and got top at worlds, the easiest way is not always the only way.

PS: Nintendo hates meganium, is always the worst starter even at the EX format, in HG SS for DS it was the only starter that didn`t got a new eggmove.

 

[Yoshi-]

Both Torterra and Gigas were archetypes, just like Luxchomp. The people who ran them used them because of the favourable Luxchomp match up (among other things). Not out of some desire to be 'original' or show their skill by playing an inferior or cheaper deck. They played to win just like any SP player.

It actually was "the format is messed up and opening hand focused anyway, so I might as well play something I enjoy playing and surprise some people". That was my exact thought before both nats and worlds. Because I knew that it would come down to luck anyway.

Out of my 7 games at worlds 2 were legit games. The t32 was a game where I lost a 100% won game to timeout. SP just made everything into a diceroll anyway so I might as well have fun.

I dont blame anyone for playing meta but its just a fact that a lot of mirrors with stuff like sp and mewdos come down to pure luck. And when someone wins with something like that it just lacks that "WOW" factor where I have the impression that someone really used his brain, came up with something cool and just surprised everyone. He probably played a lot of mirrors, knows what to do in mirror (just like his opponent) and got the better draws. I dont think hes bad or anything, its just nothing incredibly impressive, not the one who had the incredibly idea, just one of the guys who knew what to do and got lucky.

There always is a lot of luck involved and I think that this is the reason most people want some "theoretical" prove that their champ is good, playing a weird deck, a tech that changes everything, a totally weird playstyle, etc. Because then you can definitly say "he had the killer idea, he won".

Personally I dont like playing meta because I feel that at a world championship everyone should be prepared for this deck and I wouldnt expect anyone to play a deck that would loose to it. It just feels like running into an open knife.

And Im still convinced that PONT and no Calls was bad, idk...

 

[GengarIsBeast]

Anyway so many luxchomps and yet so many lost, the best luxchomp was crowned, and either regigigas or torterra cant be called counters, zangoose with expert belt was a better way to KO Garchomp C with only 1 energy and a body that prevented poison from toxicroak G, Regigigas required 3, had a x2 weakness to the frog, is pretty hard to believe they had a chance against them.

the best player was crowned...

 

[vaporeon]

the best player was crowned...

Well, the best deck was crowned...

 

[Happiny13]

ALEXARD, Zangoose isn't even in comparison to Regigigas. Zangoose has a times 2 weakness too. . . because all Luxchomps should play Lucario GL because Gdos is soo popular and good. Gigas had a lot of favorable matchups when played correctly. Vilegar, Luxchomp, Gyarados, etc.

 

[vaporeon]

ALEXARD, Zangoose isn't even in comparison to Regigigas. Zangoose has a times 2 weakness too. . . because all Luxchomps should play Lucario GL because Gdos is soo popular and good. Gigas had a lot of favorable matchups when played correctly. Vilegar, Luxchomp, Gyarados, etc.

When I was using Zangoose and Raichu GL spread, I had no problem dealing the the dragon. In fact, I never lost to Luxchomp using the deck.

 

[TheKing]

^How did you ever beat luxchomp if both Zangoose and Raichu are weak to toxicroak G and Garchomp has healing breath.

 

[Happiny13]

Who's Luxchomp were you even using? Raichu/Zangoose does nothing to a Luxchomp player. Belted Zangoose is a free prize. Raichu isn't even a good spread card.

 

[vaporeon]

The Zangoose snipes, with E-Belt, thats a OHKO on the dragon, Chomp X gets the plus powers, Raichu helps for damage spread and hits hard and chomp X does not hit the field. DCE lets me use my second attack by turn 2. 50 to 10 to my opponents pokemon with damage already helps a lot. Zapdos puts damage on my opponents Pokemon to help Zangoose and Raichu more and can hit for 80-100 if needed and with only 2 Pokemon in the deck with a Power, my opponent Power Spraying does not help them too much.

I just snipe around and hit when I need to when the dragon is out of the picture. They have to wait at least 2 turns to play the dragon X and I played Power Spray as well so I could stop the lion. Staraptor FB X let me search supporters when I needed them so I was always able to stay 1 step ahead. Was quite easy really.

 

[ALEXARD]

Garchomp can be hunted with belted Zangoose, not alowing it to become a lv X the frog was an easy prey for belted Uxie, the second attack of Zangoose can be combined with Crobat G, Raichu GL for the kill... Zapdos doesnt sound convincing i rather go with spiritomb LA for bigger spread, Poke blowers could come handy for either hunting or just adding more damage counters, it was a really good anti meta strategy.

 

[butlerforhire]

lol. You guys are laughable in your attempt at retroactively painting Zangoose as some kind of great anti-Garchomp. Were you even playing in the past two formats? The second you Belt it and KO a Garchomp, you get Lucario + Toxicroak OHKOed and lose two prizes. You respond with Uxie lv. X? You get Uxie lv. X on the other side returning the KO and now you just traded 3 prizes for 2. You try to Belt a 2nd Zangoose and KO another Garchomp? Aaron's = you have now given up 5 prizes. Luxray takes the 6th. Don't try to theorymon out of that assessment either. I and most of the rest of the sensible people in this thread actively played with and against Luxchomp for 2 straight years. Zangoose was nowhere in sight.

Also, stop hating on good players. "The best deck was crowned" <---- yeah, and you can CERTAINLY make that claim, almighty Vaporeon. You surely know what it means to be a World champion. In actuality, you're one of those guys who plays at league and in his living room and at the occasional BR and dreams up combos that just simply are not good (Vaporeon and Pidgeot, for example) and bitterly curses all the better players out there who simply play the game as it is and not as your rogue fantasy dictates it should be. You can't even remember if the tournaments you recently played in-- all 3 of them!-- were BRs or Cities. You think Vaporeon and Pidgeot is a good combo! You think Pidgeot and Vaporeon are good cards! You have no business saying anything about World-caliber players. No one cares about your spitefulness toward good players who understand this game inside and out far better than you do, including how to play decks expertly regardless of whether or not they meet your elusive ROGUE APPROVAL. No one cares about your distorted view of the truth.

I get so disgusted seeing these hateful attitudes shared so shamelessly on this site. Those are exactly the kinds of attitudes that permanently earn you a seat at the bottom tables. Keep hating on the top players of this game and see where else it gets you aside from nowhere.

 

[FunnyBear]

ITT, a club player that hasn't accomplished anything in the game tells State, Regional, and National champions and Worlds competitors that they are uncreative and uninvolved in the game and that their wins are meaningless. Naturally this thread should go on for 5 pages. Troll much?

 

[butlerforhire]

ITT, a club player that hasn't accomplished anything in the game tells State, Regional, and National champions and Worlds competitors that they are uncreative and uninvolved in the game and that their wins are meaningless. Naturally this thread should go on for 5 pages. Troll much?

ITT your assessment is correct.

 

[vaporeon]

I tried tomb but Zapdos was just soo much better for me. I can play 1 on everything and not waste a turn attacking. I did run the blowers to make killing things easy and the best thing was, the deck is cheap and could tech for a lot of stuff.

---------- Post added 06/12/2011 at 10:56 PM ----------

I already said my peace about it. I played the deck and Luxchomp could not do anything to me. I kill the dragons before they become problems. They can play Aarons if they way. They still have to put it in play and I kill them when they do. Lucario did not help them ether. I played my belts and plus powers when they were needed and I had techs for everything else. Zapdos kills everything they play in one hit so I can just do that.

I'm also not attacking the player. One guy said the best player was crowned, I just restated the the best deck was crowned. I don't know thw would class players skill but if his history with the game is only playing meta, I can make that clam. I can also say that world class player could not make a deck if his life depended on it. His wins are still valid and any work he did is valid as well, but the deck was crowned, not the player.

At above. What I play and how I play it is up to me. I'm known for playing deck and making them work. I took Vaporeon and Pidgeot in a GG format and made top cut, and I'll do it again.