Ways to Approach the Game
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So what vaporeon is saying is that, if the Fearow/Muk deck that I make and work hard on or the Emboar/Reshiram with my own varients makes top cuts or wins Nats even tho I worked hard with the playtesting etc. That it was my deck that won and not me the player? I call shinanigans to that one my good sir. Just because a guy made a Luxchomp special and won worlds or somthing doesn't make the deck the winner and not him. I personally think its the player crowned and not the deck, cause if you give my sister my flarebear deck and say go win cities or something, she will lose cause she has no idea the effort I put to make it work. So therfore its the player and not the deck.
Even tho this is a post on how to approach the game, I approach it with a thrive to meet more people and learn everything I can to beat the best rather than be the best, wether its with a meta w/techs or with Vaporeon and Pigeot its not about winning or losing its about the community and it always has been, cause Pokemon has the best community out there and we have the ever so lovable Pikachu to thank for that.
Even tho this is a post on how to approach the game, I approach it with a thrive to meet more people and learn everything I can to beat the best rather than be the best, wether its with a meta w/techs or with Vaporeon and Pigeot its not about winning or losing its about the community and it always has been, cause Pokemon has the best community out there and we have the ever so lovable Pikachu to thank for that.
butlerforhire
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Yeah, you played the deck at league/your basement/a random BR MAYBE. You don't win tournaments, you don't play people who win tournaments, you don't have any credentials whatsoever other than your self-appointed title of SUPERIOR ROGUE DECK BUILDER.
You can't make any claims about anyone, period. You espouse your ignorance of this game in virtually every post you make on this site, so people CAN make ample claims about you. You don't know what it means to be a champion. And what is this about Vaporeon/Pidgeot in a GG format? You never said before that you were talking about 2008 (assuming that's the year since it was definitely a "GG format"). Not that it matters-- the Vaporeons/Pidgeots from that time didn't show up in top cuts and they didn't have synergy.
Do you really think you are a good player who belongs at the top tables? If you're so good, why aren't you there? Maybe you're the one who has absolutely no idea how to make good decks because you're so caught up in ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE that you completely lose sight of what is playable and what isn't.
Deck-building isn't just coming up with some unseen concept. It is fine-tuning any concept, whether it is Luxchomp in 2011, LBS in 2006, Blaziken in 2004, Haymaker in 2000. It doesn't matter if the combo is obvious, overplayed, simple-- perfecting a list, perfecting match-ups, actually getting away from theorymon and the list-constructing to in-game playing and mastering THAT are not easy. Why do you think the same players tend to win the biggest events year in and year out, often with decks that hundreds of other people are playing? Because those players perfect everything. Your skewered views do nothing to them. All you do is hurt yourself with your attitude-- well, that and make this board cringe every time you take to the keyboard.
GengarIsBeast
New Member
@donchamp: i just didnt wanna explain myself xD . you did a perfect job explaining to vaporeon that its the player, not the deck that wins 
vaporeon
Moderator
Its like I said. It's the deck that takes the credit. If all the player does is play meta, I can't really speak for any true skill that players has other then know matchups. I'm not saying their wins are pointless and that they made no progress with the game because they did. It's as simple as that.
The difference between us is that I'm not fortunate enough to play in every tournament and I play in the ones I can. It does not matter if I played in league, my basement a random BR or a friendly. Every player is going to play to win and in each of the tournaments I've played in, I always made it to the top tables, playing against meta decks I've never seen, yet I always find a way to get out of it and that's because of my play style. I play many combos in a deck and use the one that works best for the match.
I'm not the best rogue player around and I might never be but the thing is I can find a group as cards that work well for me and can still do well with them. I don't card if the cards have synergy, Luxchomp does not have synergy but the cards I choose work well for me and as long as I can play them, thats all that matters. The problem with you all is you can't think out the box. I have stolen a lot of wins from good players because they don't know how to handle me. Does not matter if I a world class player or not but if you know what you're doing, you win.
The difference between us is that I'm not fortunate enough to play in every tournament and I play in the ones I can. It does not matter if I played in league, my basement a random BR or a friendly. Every player is going to play to win and in each of the tournaments I've played in, I always made it to the top tables, playing against meta decks I've never seen, yet I always find a way to get out of it and that's because of my play style. I play many combos in a deck and use the one that works best for the match.
I'm not the best rogue player around and I might never be but the thing is I can find a group as cards that work well for me and can still do well with them. I don't card if the cards have synergy, Luxchomp does not have synergy but the cards I choose work well for me and as long as I can play them, thats all that matters. The problem with you all is you can't think out the box. I have stolen a lot of wins from good players because they don't know how to handle me. Does not matter if I a world class player or not but if you know what you're doing, you win.
@tehlizard Playtcg.me is the only way to settle it XD
@GengarIsBeast Thanks! Vaporeons comment kinda peeved me cause my friend won the most recent BR with a meta deck and he won it on skill going up against Donphans and Blastgatrs alike, I managed 5th place with Weaville/Houndoom UD (Non prime) but its always the player never the deck.
@GengarIsBeast Thanks! Vaporeons comment kinda peeved me cause my friend won the most recent BR with a meta deck and he won it on skill going up against Donphans and Blastgatrs alike, I managed 5th place with Weaville/Houndoom UD (Non prime) but its always the player never the deck.
butlerforhire
New Member
lol.
I am not a player who is constricted in any way. I play meta, "rogue", whatever is good. I'm not some mindless net decker. I spend hours practicing, thinking about all kinds of card combinations, building lists. I am not the "face of meta" in this thread. If anything, I am the face of reason.
GengarIsBeast
New Member
i really dont get how someone can be so closed minded.. its like he replys without reading what anyone says or something.. i really dont know
You say that like if you won the worlds, maybe you were defeated by a japanese too, another proud stepping stone with the footprint of the king.
Is quite sad to see how you appreciate results over effort, such an elitist mentality should be a crime, thats exactly the attitude that forced the rotation. State or National top players should not swagger about their results, becoming part of the top 200... ok lets say 150 of the world is as easy as getting an invitation and not showing.
Anyway, considering results over creativity... why bother ? japanese are always better players than all of us, lets just netdeck their stuff, the champion deck was the most simple SP deck in the whole tournament, without crazy techs like REL, Manectric, Zangoose or Arceus, a single Dragonite FB was the key to earn the crown.
All Hail Luxchomp!! even I used it and won... but unlike other people I got bored of letting the deck get the victories instead of me.
Is quite sad to see how you appreciate results over effort, such an elitist mentality should be a crime, thats exactly the attitude that forced the rotation. State or National top players should not swagger about their results, becoming part of the top 200... ok lets say 150 of the world is as easy as getting an invitation and not showing.
Anyway, considering results over creativity... why bother ? japanese are always better players than all of us, lets just netdeck their stuff, the champion deck was the most simple SP deck in the whole tournament, without crazy techs like REL, Manectric, Zangoose or Arceus, a single Dragonite FB was the key to earn the crown.
All Hail Luxchomp!! even I used it and won... but unlike other people I got bored of letting the deck get the victories instead of me.
We put effort into making the deck, even if its meta. The deck doesn't give you victories, the way you played the deck and how you built it gave you victory. Besides, without meta decks there can't be rogue decks either.
No, no, no. By no means did I mean that you we're a strictly meta player. I just was reasoning that if you think MagneBoar is the best developing deck, that you represent meta.
I'd watch this matchup.
butlerforhire
New Member
The whole point of playing a rogue deck is to win against a format that isn't prepared or that is simply weak to whatever that deck is. If you are a self-proclaimed rogue player just for the sake of being original, that's fine, but just understand that you aren't playing rogue to win, and if you aren't playing this game to win, you can exit the conversation about competitive play.
I'm always trying to find that perfect combination of 60 cards to take on any given format, at any given event. Those 60 cards could make up GG, Luxchomp, Ludicolo PL tank, whatever. I design lists and select decks to win; the ability to win is the most important criteria. Rogue decks do have advantages if they're truly good in concept and in execution (including both list construction and actual in-game playing). Look at the famous Delta deck that swept U.S. Nationals in 2006. A lot of people either didn't know what to do against it, or simply had no solid defenses even if they did quickly pick up on its ins and outs. That's what a rogue is supposed to do-- knock people down with the surprise factor, force them to deviate from their rehearsed game plans, force them to think on their feet, give you the opportunity to lead games and initiate plays that you have been honing for months but your opponent has rarely seen, if ever.
If I am going to play a rogue deck, it will be a good one, not something like Vaporeon/Pidgeot that has nothing going for it other than personal appeal to the deck's creator.
I'm always trying to find that perfect combination of 60 cards to take on any given format, at any given event. Those 60 cards could make up GG, Luxchomp, Ludicolo PL tank, whatever. I design lists and select decks to win; the ability to win is the most important criteria. Rogue decks do have advantages if they're truly good in concept and in execution (including both list construction and actual in-game playing). Look at the famous Delta deck that swept U.S. Nationals in 2006. A lot of people either didn't know what to do against it, or simply had no solid defenses even if they did quickly pick up on its ins and outs. That's what a rogue is supposed to do-- knock people down with the surprise factor, force them to deviate from their rehearsed game plans, force them to think on their feet, give you the opportunity to lead games and initiate plays that you have been honing for months but your opponent has rarely seen, if ever.
If I am going to play a rogue deck, it will be a good one, not something like Vaporeon/Pidgeot that has nothing going for it other than personal appeal to the deck's creator.
vaporeon
Moderator
I read all comments. The problem is you all play meta and I play rogue so you can't see where I come from. I can play both meta and rogue well. I choose not to play meta because thats not how I choose to play. It's not going to contribute anything to the game and show that I can only win with meta.
You all are twisting my words. I have stated many times that I don't care how you play. If you choose to play meta, that fine and you can play your meta deck well and I give you props for that but its the deck that wins. All you can do is take the victory from playing the deck. Sure the player needs to understand how to play the deck In many reports, decks that one are listed. While the person is mention, they don't say so and so won 20 tournaments with so and so deck. They all say so and so deck won this many games. I pride myself in being able to build decks and do well with them.
And butlerforhire, why would you play rogue when you have other powerful decks to choose from. I'm almost positive you'll take a meta deck to a tournament where your rating is on the line and how can you set here and tell you spend hours practicing, thinking about all kinds of card combinations and building a list when you have a list right in front of you. Tell me, what are you playing right now?
You're going to defend meta like I defend rogue and it's as simple as that.
You all are twisting my words. I have stated many times that I don't care how you play. If you choose to play meta, that fine and you can play your meta deck well and I give you props for that but its the deck that wins. All you can do is take the victory from playing the deck. Sure the player needs to understand how to play the deck In many reports, decks that one are listed. While the person is mention, they don't say so and so won 20 tournaments with so and so deck. They all say so and so deck won this many games. I pride myself in being able to build decks and do well with them.
And butlerforhire, why would you play rogue when you have other powerful decks to choose from. I'm almost positive you'll take a meta deck to a tournament where your rating is on the line and how can you set here and tell you spend hours practicing, thinking about all kinds of card combinations and building a list when you have a list right in front of you. Tell me, what are you playing right now?
You're going to defend meta like I defend rogue and it's as simple as that.
I ran out of thanks for the day just thanking butler and others since my last post. Everything they say is so true.
IF you EVER made a deck that NEVER or even +80% beat luxchomp you should have at least gone to a states and made a showing, you would have destroyed. NVM you probably did and did make a showing. VAP/PGT Lost, didn't it.
IF you EVER made a deck that NEVER or even +80% beat luxchomp you should have at least gone to a states and made a showing, you would have destroyed. NVM you probably did and did make a showing. VAP/PGT Lost, didn't it.
butlerforhire
New Member
I don't recall saying Magneboar was the "best developing deck."
My post wasn't just a response to yours, but also a general response to Vaporeon and anyone else who thinks I am for some reason arguing that "META IS THE SOURCE OF ALL GLORY FOREVER AND EVER AMEN."" That is a bad mentality to have too, and I don't want anyone to think I have it. I strive to be a "total" player, hence the reference to me not being restricted in my approaches to any facet of this game.
vaporeon
Moderator
All the decks I make win. This one is still a work in progress.
GengarIsBeast
New Member
everyone bow down. every deck that vaporeon touches, wins
butlerforhire
New Member
You're a presumptuous fool, plain and simple. Talk to the players in this game who know me such as John Kettler, and they'll testify that I'm one of the most active people in this game when it comes to immersing myself in a format. I'm always coming up with original ideas, many of which ultimately don't cut it, but some of which do. I MAKE MY OWN LISTS, meta or not. I have plenty of "rogues" sitting in Redshark that I play all the time, and not just for fun either. I make these decks to win.
To answer your (silly) question, I don't have any one deck that I'm playing right now-- I have tons. I have an arsenal, like most other good players. This past format, I could play any given meta deck and quite a few others at the drop of a hat, and I did, switching decks numerous times from fall BRs through Regionals. I'm getting ready to play in Nationals, unlike you, and then World after that, also unlike you. I am absorbing this new format into my bloodstream, LOOKING for a "rogue" that will catch people by surprise, as I always am, but then I am also fully prepared to play whatever else ends up being the best deck in my testing/in the emergent format.
You know NOTHING about me, although if you did perhaps you'd stop making such foolish claims like "you will always argue for meta." I argue for viewing this game in its TOTALITY, not through some grimy, narrow prism like you oh-so-clearly choose to view it from (the prism that makes you think the world is divided into rogue and meta, with you in the rogue corner valiantly defending your own perceived honor against this horrible army of soulless netdeckers who would lose every game if they had to play something like Vaporeon/Pidgeot).
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