Worlds 2009 In Review

[Yoshi-]

It just cant work this way, Because a judge can clearly see when an action has no effect (picking up card b with card a, picking up care a with card b, something like this) but a judge can not recognize when an action is ment for stalling when it changes the gamestate. Maybe the player is just bad and doesnt realise his action has no meaning, maybe he has some plan that the judge doesnt understand?

A Judge should never "become the player" and try to guess his intentions.

 

[NoPoke]

A Judge should never "become the player" and try to guess his intentions.

Whilst that is true for the slow play infraction, it is not the case for Unsporting conduct.

This category always assumes that the offending actions are intentional

Intent is there to be determined. I agree that judges should not guess: they should be guided by evidence and expectation.

 

[gashmoigidy]

On the stalling issues, if I remember right Gino was told a ruling about this at least years Nats. They said 10 seconds than you legally have to make a move or play another card. If you notice this, try counting. If they go over 15 more than once. CALL THE JUDGE OVER. Not wanting to seem rude will lose you games because if you continue to play this game you will face a staller at some time.

 

[MrMeches]

The "playing Slowly" portion is the portion I was mentioning. If a player has a specific pace and then changes dramatically towards the end of a match, this raises a red flag.

Also, the Best Judges don't try to occupy one player through a tournament. Most Teams identify a situation (or they should and discuss between rounds) that is questionable and then share the responsibility of the identifying the player. This is what a Judge Team does. Though it may nto be just me watching, I assure you if it is happening, A Judge is watching. If they aren't following the guidelines, they won't be a judge for long.

I have a lot of personal opinions about Penalties and Guidelines as well, but my personal beliefs on what is right or wrong doesn't change TPCi Printed information. When volunteering to be a Judge, you know the Rules (or should), know the Guidelines (or should) and Know the Penalty Structure (Or should!). If you don't or have an issue with following them, don't volunteer.

The Game is provided to us as a means of entertainment and socialization. As with all games, we all will disagree with one item or the other. :thumb:

As for the 10-40-Untimed thing..... you are going to adjust to the time frame given. A Great Player uses the skills possessed and manages the game in it TRUE FORM regardless of timing. IT IS POKEMON and that is what it IS!

Good debate and I see your view points.... no misunderstanding in what you typed, just different perspectives of interpretation. Free thinking.... it is a Beautiful thing!

Fish

 

[TheDarkTwins]

How many games have you ever played with $5000 on the line? Its really easy to sit infront of a computer at home and say it. Not so much when it is stareing you in the face. 99% of a players would take the cheap win. A better question would be how many of them would feel bad about it.

Personally, I would be one of those players. I would feel awful if I knew I cheated out an opponent.

I think there IS such a thing as gaming the clock. Ben S. can attest to it. I could of made enough moves by slowly playing my whole hand running out time and preventing myself from decking on time, however I chose the higher road. I feel that this should ALWAYS be the case. I would rather win fairly then take a cheap win. I have had way too many games where I have lost on time. I was told that I may have the worst luck when it comes to time. I couldn't even argue the point. I would rather see a judge step in then have it run to time and a player be upset that something happened but nothing was done even if that player should of called a judge.

Drew

 

[The Dark Toxicroak]

I actually didn't think you were allowed to have a device you could use to time the match. Are watches allowed? Should they be?

Anyways I don't think going for the win on time is ever worth it. The time limit wasn't really put there as a way to win but to make sure tournaments don't all run till 5am. It is very easy to tell when someone is trying to time you out and to me it just seems low. I would definately be disappointed if I played someone with a big name in the game and they had to time me out..... Yeah I got to play "Insert some world champion here" he was so good that he had to time me out to win. Just doesnt sound right imo.


Sometimes things have unwritten rules. I.E just because it doesnt say you cant do it in the rules doesnt mean you should.. to me card counting in blackjack comes to mind.

 

[billbilski]

This area IS grey. I have taken losses because I'm not willing to "stall" for a win, but I have also won games by making sure I take my full turn and execute a strategy that ensures a win i.e. buying a turn with conditions,retreating when it might not normally be the play or whatever. To me "stalling " is more an intent and usually means the addition to a turn things that gain you no advantage EXCEPT time. Checking discards,asking questions,shuffling forever in an attempt to milk the clock IS obnoxious, playing your cards and strategy to protect a lead is much much more difficult to label IMHO. I have played against extremely good "clock managers" in my years of pokemon -some of the best players in the history of pokemon - but I never once thought they were "stalling". When Jason K wins because he made sure the prize trade offs always give him the last turn/chance for the win when time is called and makes plays to ensure that- that is just good playing.....Don't ever try and say time management is not crucial in the upper echelon of OP. I'm not here to say what is right or wrong - just what IS..... Often these debates come down to semantics and word crafting... I'm too old for that crap. LOL.

 

[Prime]

It'd be interesting to see how game play would change if TPCi decided to add a +turns to the end of the game. This would make it harder to win on time, as it'd give each player one or two more turns, with no time limit.

 

[Prof Clay]

It'd be interesting to see how game play would change if TPCi decided to add a +turns to the end of the game. This would make it harder to win on time, as it'd give each player one or two more turns, with no time limit.

I know I would support that.

 

[Time for Pain]

It'd be interesting to see how game play would change if TPCi decided to add a +turns to the end of the game. This would make it harder to win on time, as it'd give each player one or two more turns, with no time limit.

I know in yu-gi-oh at time they give both players 2 turns and I would like to see something like that here.

 

[Lawman]

It'd be interesting to see how game play would change if TPCi decided to add a +turns to the end of the game. This would make it harder to win on time, as it'd give each player one or two more turns, with no time limit.

I wouldn't mind a time + 1 or 2. Those turns would be monitered for pace though. They would not be per se "untimed". Players would still have to play lively. No need for 2 turns to tack on another 15 mins to a rd turnaround!

Keith

 

[meganium45]

I would be against the addition of additional turns unless we reduced the round times back to 30 minutes.

Events are stretching out further and further with the 40 minute change. Adding turns to that would make most large states and regionals unmanageable.

I would love to see every game go to fruition, not on time, but that is not going to happen.

Vince

 

[Time for Pain]

I would be against the addition of additional turns unless we reduced the round times back to 30 minutes.

Events are stretching out further and further with the 40 minute change. Adding turns to that would make most large states and regionals unmanageable.

I would love to see every game go to fruition, not on time, but that is not going to happen.

Vince

If we go back to 30 min that will cause more porblems as most of the time at events matches arn't done at 40 min. So 30 min + 2 turns each would make people very unhappy and be bad for the game.

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

From a judge's perspective a pretty hefty percentage of matches get done in the first 20 minutes, let alone 30. Yes 40 min does enable something closer to an "untimed" game, but usually only a very small number of matches overall go that distance.

The problem for many folks posting here is that some of the games most likely to go to time are those between two really good players paired together. The more even skill level and the more even the luck between players paired the more likely a game is to last longer.

It's no coincidence that high level players have to be able to manage time. They get pushed up against that wall a lot more than most, especially as rounds progress, and not because of "slow play" IMHO.

 

[PokePop]

I suspect that if we were to put the match time back to 30, all of a sudden more games would start reaching the 30 minute mark.
That would be an interesting experiment.

 

[ryanvergel]

The Prof Cups are the best place to conduct experiments! Best of three swiss (40 min still), +X turns after time, untimed swiss/top cut variants, sideboards- the kinds are endless.

 

[PokePop]

The Prof Cups are the best place to conduct experiments! Best of three swiss (40 min still), +X turns after time, untimed swiss/top cut variants, sideboards- the kinds are endless.

But the prof cup would be no good for this experiment since the sample set would be different and it would also be a one-off. Wrong parameters to see the effect I would expect to see.

 

[Prime]

Worlds side-event again? Exobyte?

 

[DarthPika]

This area IS grey. I have taken losses because I'm not willing to "stall" for a win, but I have also won games by making sure I take my full turn and execute a strategy that ensures a win i.e. buying a turn with conditions,retreating when it might not normally be the play or whatever. To me "stalling " is more an intent and usually means the addition to a turn things that gain you no advantage EXCEPT time. Checking discards,asking questions,shuffling forever in an attempt to milk the clock IS obnoxious, playing your cards and strategy to protect a lead is much much more difficult to label IMHO. I have played against extremely good "clock managers" in my years of pokemon -some of the best players in the history of pokemon - but I never once thought they were "stalling". When Jason K wins because he made sure the prize trade offs always give him the last turn/chance for the win when time is called and makes plays to ensure that- that is just good playing.....Don't ever try and say time management is not crucial in the upper echelon of OP. I'm not here to say what is right or wrong - just what IS..... Often these debates come down to semantics and word crafting... I'm too old for that crap. LOL.

I agree with this 100%. I personally am good at managing the clock. I have beaten many people who thought they had more time to finish the game. I would like to point out though, that I never ever would even dream of trying to stall someone out. I have been stalled out in the past and find it disgusting. IMO stalling should have a far heavier penalty than it does now. By managing the clock, I mean being aware of how much time is left, and adjusting to the situation. For example, I would play differently if I knew a game was going to time rather than being able to be fully played out. However, I always try to avoid winning or losing on time if it's possible. I really, really hate ending a game that way.

Pop, I'm not so sure 30min rounds would work again. I've had many, many games take the full 40min. SP mirrors take FOREVER to finish, some of them easily extending past an hour in an untimed match. As I said previously, I really hate games coming to time. It doesn't leave a good feeling on either side, unless there was going to be an obvious winner. I lost a game at nats 2 years ago to a plox player by a matter of 1 turn. He wasn't stalling, the game just wound up taking a long time. It's not a nice feeling to have knowing that you would have won had time not been called.

 

[evil psyduck]

DarthPika-You should explain how you would play differently if the game was going to time. That
comment could be taken a lot of ways.