Gentlemen, how do we beat Machamp...Gyarados?

[Kayle]

Don't listen to idiotic banter.

DGX is an awesome tech that I haven't ran G'dos without since Plume's release. I'm not sure why anyone would go into an event with a glaring hole in their strategy while Plume floats around.

Whose banter is idiotic?

I certainly haven't needed DGX to thwart Plume...

 

[Austino]

Vilegar absolutely eats Gyarados. Spiritomb start into vileplume= GG

This banter.

Since trainer lock shuts down a supporter-set up deck that can get around spiritombs, can overconfident, and burn excess trainers thanks to regi.

 

[mario1]

This banter.

Since trainer lock shuts down a supporter-set up deck that can get around spiritombs, can overconfident, and burn excess trainers thanks to regi.

Most Vilegar "should" run Lookers which really slows gyarados down especially under trainer lock. From my testing experience Vilegar wins the matchup more than 50% of the time. Throw in a couple judge and gyarados is done for. Once all your collectors have been nullified by lookers/judge then what are you gonna do? Gyarados is good but is only on top for the time being because of it's hype and amount of players using it.

 

[Kayle]

Most Vilegar "should" run Lookers which really slows gyarados down especially under trainer lock. From my testing experience Vilegar wins the matchup more than 50% of the time. Throw in a couple judge and gyarados is done for. Once all your collectors have been nullified by lookers/judge then what are you gonna do? Gyarados is good but is only on top for the time being because of it's hype and amount of players using it.

Looker's is survivable, and I really don't see Vilegar running more than two. How are you going to consistently draw into them early enough to matter, either?

 

[Austino]

Most Vilegar "should" run Lookers which really slows gyarados down especially under trainer lock. From my testing experience Vilegar wins the matchup more than 50% of the time. Throw in a couple judge and gyarados is done for. Once all your collectors have been nullified by lookers/judge then what are you gonna do? Gyarados is good but is only on top for the time being because of it's hype and amount of players using it.

Yeah, if you're planning on playing against the G'dos lists that aren't running 4 Volkner....G'dos had issues with Judge Pre-rotation, what makes you think post-rotation wouldn't compensate by running 4 draw cards that get you out of a judge AND discard for you.

 

[ChaosJim]

Decks can play solutions to the solutions to beating them. Things happen. Players use skill, and react to one another. This speaks to the health of the format like Jason said.

T1 wins are negative, but I haven't seen an unusually large amount.

 

[eriknance]

Gyarados very good.

 

[Nintendan]

Well, in Luxchomp, you could just Bright Look the Regice and snipe around it. Or, if Belted G'dos is on the bench, just keep Regice active and prevent SSUs with Deafen from teched DG and setup your Lux for Trashbolt, Lucario GL and a bat G.
You will get return Koed but at least you're taking 2 instead of taking 1. But they have better recovery.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Gyarados, Vileplume/Gengar & all the SP Variants have close match-ups against each other. While not necessarily the best format (still too many turn one wins for my liking), this is perhaps the most balanced format I've seen in the history of the game.

I'll agree with the first statement, however I can't agree with the 2nd statement. 2006 was the best, with 2007 being right behind it. Holon Transceiver made almost anything you could have thought of playable. We had 30 different decks win events in 2006.

Drew

 

[nnaann]

Well, in Luxchomp, you could just Bright Look the Regice and snipe around it. Or, if Belted G'dos is on the bench, just keep Regice active and prevent SSUs with Deafen from teched DG and setup your Lux for Trashbolt, Lucario GL and a bat G.
You will get return Koed but at least you're taking 2 instead of taking 1. But they have better recovery.

The Regice idea is nice, but Gyarados usually runs 3-4 Warp Energy plus SSU. Your best bet is to take a 1-2 prize lead while they get set up, then just take a prize everyturn.

 

[Shen]

Anyway, to be on topic Vilegar is better than most people give it credit for, people are able to play around it but still, an opening hand full of trainers and not supports against a Vilegar is still a loss (for those who enjoy running the mix of trainers and supporters) and Vilegar gives Gyarados a difficult time through Gengar Prime.

I agree. And IIRC, you played 3 Poltergeist Gengar and 1 Curse Gengar instead of the Lv.X (was a big fan of this play, btw) in your build. I'm assuming from the context of your post that you dropped the Curse Gengar in favor of Gengar Prime. I've been testing in the same fashion, and I think Gengar Prime tightens a lot of Vilegar's match-ups. Gengar Prime puts a lot of pressure on Gyarados to get the Magikarps in the discard fast, or they're off to the Lost Zone. T1 Gengar Prime is a huge threat for Gyara, and may even catch some players off guard.

Even then, Gyara needs to be sure that Vilegar never has the opportunity to score a KO on its Gyarados with Cursed Droplets. It probably won't happen very often, but it forces Gyarados to be cautious.

---------- Post added 12/04/2010 at 07:56 AM ----------

Also, Rob, I'm sure Turbo Uxie loves the Gyarados match-up

 

[TheDarkTwins]

I agree. And IIRC, you played 3 Poltergeist Gengar and 1 Curse Gengar instead of the Lv.X (was a big fan of this play, btw) in your build. I'm assuming from the context of your post that you dropped the Curse Gengar in favor of Gengar Prime. I've been testing in the same fashion, and I think Gengar Prime tightens a lot of Vilegar's match-ups. Gengar Prime puts a lot of pressure on Gyarados to get the Magikarps in the discard fast, or they're off to the Lost Zone. T1 Gengar Prime is a huge threat for Gyara, and may even catch some players off guard.

Even then, Gyara needs to be sure that Vilegar never has the opportunity to score a KO on its Gyarados with Cursed Droplets. It probably won't happen very often, but it forces Gyarados to be cautious.

---------- Post added 12/04/2010 at 07:56 AM ----------

Also, Rob, I'm sure Turbo Uxie loves the Gyarados match-up

I'm sorry, but you need to play Gengar Lv. X. If you don't ,what is stopping them from playing Dialga G Lv. X to use traines the whole game? If they do that, the matchup turns heavily into Gyarados's favor.

Drew

 

[Shen]

As said by Rob:

Vile-gar isn't a bad deck. It is a solid meta-game play. As SP worry about other SP's they stop worrying about Vile-Gar..... And run higher trainer counts.

Gengar Prime might give it good options. I would not use the Gengar LvlX. Go 3 (fainting spell), 1 AR (curse). Personally the dialga match up goes the way of the lock. If they can get Dialga out, the lock is gone, and Gengar Level X doesn't change the outcome by much.

(This is before Gengar Prime was released)

And I agree. Once Dialga comes out, re-establishing the lock won't do a whole lot. They get all of their trainers out of their hand that turn, you still gotta deal with Power Sprays, Dialga can always come back. I would look for other ways to deal with Dialga than Gengar Lv.X.

 

[Deoxys Cool Form]

I think he meant Gyarados with Dialga, in which case they wouldn't run Sprays.

 

[Shen]

My bad, I thought you were talking about the SP based Dialga match-up. I haven't tested Gyara w/ Dialga vs. VileGar yet. Dialga isn't very common in my area in Gyarados, though I still wanna get the match down. Anyways, I don't have have very much to contribute towards that lol. I will say, while the Gengar spread w/ a Lv. X is up for grabs, I still think Gengar Prime helps the Gyara match-up.

 

[espy87]

VileGar has a 70/30 matchup against Gyarados in VileGars favor.
Rescue Energy has made Gengar SF incredible.

 

[Whicker]

LOL @ this thread!

Honch SV does nothing to even a mediocre player...Oh, look at that, my bench is full, sorry, your power doesn't work.

Lux/Luc....cool, you scored a OHKO at the expense of 3 energy and a gain (2 on lux, one in hand). I'll see your KO and raise you another, gl getting 3 more energy again while I return KO for 0 again. Oh, and hope I didn't attach rescue energy!

Roserade? Has anyone seen how many warp energy are played this season?!

Luxchomp is a 50-50 matchup, to be completely fair. It really comes down to LC's recovery and spray count. Also comes down to whether the g'dos player is smart and runs 4 volkner to be prepared for uxie's doing nothing.

Fortunately, I know the strategy for beating Los Gatos, especially with Gyarados.

To be fair, Los Gatos (The Cats) can beat gyarados on a regular basis if he/she is ill prepared.

Rescue energy returns both karp and gyarados to the hand
BTS is already in play considering LuxChomp doesn't run counter stadiums
A pokemon rescue grabs a karp out of the discard, or God forbid they play Junk Arm to grab a rescue.
Seeker is a moot point, unless you wanna factor in all of the scrub LC players. (I don't play seeker for the reason it benefits my opponent).
Gyarados' weakness keeps the matchup 50-50.
LC requires energy, gain, lucario, Lv. Up, and Flash Bite to OHKO vs stage 1, 0 energy, Ebelt OR 2 flash bite (and 4 turn, 4 ssu, 3 junk arm available).

I expected better analysis than the poor argument that LC recovers faster....that doesn't even make sense.

Don't listen to idiotic banter.

DGX is an awesome tech that I haven't ran G'dos without since Plume's release. I'm not sure why anyone would go into an event with a glaring hole in their strategy while Plume floats around.

This banter.

Since trainer lock shuts down a supporter-set up deck that can get around spiritombs, can overconfident, and burn excess trainers thanks to regi.

Yeah, if you're planning on playing against the G'dos lists that aren't running 4 Volkner....G'dos had issues with Judge Pre-rotation, what makes you think post-rotation wouldn't compensate by running 4 draw cards that get you out of a judge AND discard for you.

These quotes are why we need a dislike button on the Pokegym.

 

[Skull Hatter]

Hey why was the topic title changed? It was a joke, is superman too "not pokemon" for everyone?

 

[nch76]

Is there a possible way to stadium lock? Miasma valley+metagross SV makes putting down a magikarp on bench an autokill...

 

[Yarac]

Here's a couple of ideas for beating Gyarados that people haven't discussed yet:

SpeedChamp + Infernape 4 LvX - roar to bring up a basic and KO it. Tech in HonchKrow SV to slow down the return hit. Don't forget the Seekers.

2xTurtwig G + Belts + Vileplume (you may need to Seeker your Vileplume to play your belts). This is slow as molasses (since you need 2 fully powered and belted Turtwig G's) but pretty much an auto-win if you can set it up before the Gyarados player takes 6 prizes...