Allowing 10% Foreign Cards once again

[CFOURCOLTSFAN]

I'm probably in the miniority on this but i would want to use my JPN cards just b/c they look cooler, maybe they could let you use JPN cards/foreign language only if you also had an ENG version/language you need to have. i so want to use my neo genesis jpn super rod/ssu but i have to use the ENG version. i think if you own an ENG version it shouldn't be a problem but they won't do it so i guess ther'es no point in hoping

 

[Peithoson]

You all are also guilty of an elitism here. "any judge or player SHOULD know"...well guess what, some don't. "Well if you don't know you shouldn't judge/play"....yes you should.

The Pokemon TCG is meant to be inclusive, and the 1337 of some of the players (elite) is frankly distasteful enough that I think it would push Pokemon NOT to lift any sort of ban...

I don't see it as elitist to make people provide translations (same as damage counters/randomizers). The responsibility for providing a translation falls on the player. Allowing foreign cards allow people to customize/personalize their decks as well as pay less for cards. A game like pokemon that is aggressively marketed towards kids should not have 50+ dollar competitive cards.

Hate to tell you players, but everything is not free. Anyone think we have to have free events to keep OP going, did anyone see the 4200 people show up AND PAY $20 EACH to play Yugioh in California last weekend.

Note - Yeti Shirt on the Dragon Duel Champion...but I digress....
If pokemon is committed to keeping children in the OP system, events should absolutely remain free. Now, when it comes to side events/ prereleases/ and or booster drafts, a fee does not seem out of reason.

Think about it....if you make it even tougher on the stores where OP is held to survive, then OP will not survive.
Allowing foreign cards would probably hurt the secondary market in the short run. However, I think that lowering the price of cards like Mewtwo EX while they are still competitive would do a lot to help promote the game and open it up further as far as OP is concerned.

Replies in bold.
I would definitely like to see the competitive side of this game become more accessible to the juniors and seniors players who have limited resources.

---------- Post added 03/28/2012 at 12:55 PM ----------

I'm probably in the miniority on this but i would want to use my JPN cards just b/c they look cooler, maybe they could let you use JPN cards/foreign language only if you also had an ENG version/language you need to have. i so want to use my neo genesis jpn super rod/ssu but i have to use the ENG version. i think if you own an ENG version it shouldn't be a problem but they won't do it so i guess ther'es no point in hoping

That would be part of the reason I would like to use foreign cards, some of the art is fantastic.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

I don't see it as elitist to make people provide translations (same as damage counters/randomizers). The responsibility for providing a translation falls on the player. Allowing foreign cards allow people to customize/personalize their decks as well as pay less for cards. A game like pokemon that is aggressively marketed towards kids should not have 50+ dollar competitive cards

...did you actually read the post?

He was commenting on how some people expressing that foreign cards should just be allowed and to forget about the people who don't know what those cards do.

If pokemon is committed to keeping children in the OP system, events should absolutely remain free. Now, when it comes to side events/ prereleases/ and or booster drafts, a fee does not seem out of reason.

Again that isn't really what he's talking about. He was pointing out that OP requires money to survive, and cooperation with gamestores are vital for this.

Allowing foreign cards would probably hurt the secondary market in the short run. However, I think that lowering the price of cards like Mewtwo EX while they are still competitive would do a lot to help promote the game and open it up further as far as OP is concerned

See above.

I don't particularly agree with Meganium as gamestores were still willing to cooperate even before any form of the ban arrose, and they still have the secondary market to deal with, but at least try to have some understanding of where he's coming from.

 

[Cyrus]

Also, dissimilar groups don't necessarily need to be treated similarly. For example, the impact of allowing foreign cards for the Seniors would not be a picnic, and it'd be a logistical nightmare for Juniors, but for Masters it'd actually be pretty simple. Perhaps this is just nostalgia from the "bad old days," but full-on Japanese decks rarely seemed to be a problem for the oldest age group.

 

[Politoed666]

Lots of effort and discussion going on here about a "dead" issue.

A much as the players may want this...they are going to have to continue want as it is not going to change. Just because you guys want something, doesn't mean its a good enough reason to get it.:thumb:

Really? You, sir, would completely fail at owning a business, because you fail to comprehend the principle that "the customer is always right." Too often do those at the top forget that the vast majority of competitive players actually buy their product in large quantities. Yeah, tournaments are free. Cards are not.

 

[Prof Clay]

Really? You, sir, would completely fail at owning a business, because you fail to comprehend the principle that "the customer is always right." Too often do those at the top forget that the vast majority of competitive players actually buy their product in large quantities. Yeah, tournaments are free. Cards are not.

We have many many customers who never ever set foot in tournaments. They will never know the horrible empty feeling you guys have because you cannot play a Japanese card in tournament play.

And No...the customer is NOT always right when it comes to regulating a competitive environment. That part of the game is separate from the buying and selling of cards.

...and you are probably right about running a business...thats why I chose to not do that for a living...i do coach a pretty good soccer team and teach AP CHEM like a champ!

 

[evil psyduck]

Really? You, sir, would completely fail at owning a business, because you fail to comprehend the principle that "the customer is always right." Too often do those at the top forget that the vast majority of competitive players actually buy their product in large quantities. Yeah, tournaments are free. Cards are not.

Except for one problem. The customer is not always right.

 

[Cyrus]

The customer is not always right: several businesses that follow that philosophy end up getting themselves killed for that very reason. However, that still doesn't refute the good that re-implementation of the 10% rule can do.

Also, from a pure product perspective the argument makes some sense for why game stores could struggle more with this policy; however, being able to sell single cards to a wider market means more business, and ultimately a better relationship with OP. A major method employed by card shops to make money is bulk buying, and oftentimes, buyers can't help but find a few foreign cards in their lots that they receive.

What are they to do with these cards? Spend the extra time cataloging them? Throw them out? Hope that someday a collector really wants that Korean Magnezone Prime?

No: they can sell those cards with greater ease, since all players usually care about is just being able to use their ideas in competitive venues - not necessarily if it's English or what have you. The 10% rule stifles that market, and makes it harder for those cards to actually maintain value anywhere in the world.

 

[SD PokeMom]

let's see: when jpn/other language cards were allowed, just how many times did we event staff find translation printouts left on tables, on the floor etc. between rounds?

how many times did we find translations abandoned once pre-reg deckcheck was over, or have to hear the 'i must have lost it' at top cut check?

how many times did we have people begging for us to print out something for them that was THEIR responsibility to take care of?

how many times did we have to ARGUE about what an acceptable translation/reference was with experienced players (or their parents) who should have known better...i.e. no, that printout of a scan from *insert fansite here* is NOT a legal translation?

...way too many. oh, and let's not forget the cute little 'leave a card on the table as my "translation" even though it's not in my deck to influence my opponent's actions' trick...

good riddance to something that wasted way too much event staff time...

jmho
'mom

 

[rokman]

A lot of the problem is (with Japanese cards) the back of the card is a different design than the rest of the world.

Even the best brands of sleeves have minor visibility through the back of the sleeve. This would cause all kinds of issues, especially with marking.

Since most of your japanese cards are going to be things like Mewtwo EX and Catcher, there is a problem.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

let's see: when jpn/other language cards were allowed, just how many times did we event staff find translation printouts left on tables, on the floor etc. between rounds?

how many times did we find translations abandoned once pre-reg deckcheck was over, or have to hear the 'i must have lost it' at top cut check?

how many times did we have people begging for us to print out something for them that was THEIR responsibility to take care of?

how many times did we have to ARGUE about what an acceptable translation/reference was with experienced players (or their parents) who should have known better...i.e. no, that printout of a scan from *insert fansite here* is NOT a legal translation?

...way too many. oh, and let's not forget the cute little 'leave a card on the table as my "translation" even though it's not in my deck to influence my opponent's actions' trick...

good riddance to something that wasted way too much event staff time...

jmho
'mom

One of the worst things about it was that the only solution is really a DQ, because staff is generally too busy to be able to worry about it. I remember a time when my friend borrowed my deck (I think for States) and I had a Japanese Darkrai lv X, and the translation I had for him wasn't applicable. (I think I got it from the old TCG site) It was horrible and he wound up eventually getting a DQ for it. In hindsight I really think that banning foreign cards was one of the best decisions POP ever made since it restricts such problems to references only.

 

[Cyrus]

let's see: when jpn/other language cards were allowed, just how many times did we event staff find translation printouts left on tables, on the floor etc. between rounds?

how many times did we find translations abandoned once pre-reg deckcheck was over, or have to hear the 'i must have lost it' at top cut check?

how many times did we have people begging for us to print out something for them that was THEIR responsibility to take care of?

how many times did we have to ARGUE about what an acceptable translation/reference was with experienced players (or their parents) who should have known better...i.e. no, that printout of a scan from *insert fansite here* is NOT a legal translation?

...way too many. oh, and let's not forget the cute little 'leave a card on the table as my "translation" even though it's not in my deck to influence my opponent's actions' trick...

good riddance to something that wasted way too much event staff time...

jmho
'mom

The problem with so many of those examples is just sloppiness of individual players:

*If you find someone's print-out, it's fairly easy to trace back to the individual, who can be punished for it.

*If a translation is lost, then the player is responsible for either finding a new one or taking several game losses in a row.

*It doesn't matter how much someone begs - just stick to the same answer ("no") and it isn't a big deal.

*Those people you were arguing with over translations are going to be as obstinate and inconsiderate no matter what policy you have or don't have. The rules were fairly explicit, so if they couldn't abide by them, then boo-hoo if they're given game losses.

All of those issues (and more) can be dealt with by a judge just putting his or her foot down. If the issue of angry poke-parents is too big a concern, then reserve re-implementation of the 10% rule for Masters only, where the majority of players are adults (or, failing that, teens who are learning to become adults).

Judges have a lot of things they need to do, and the reality of things always has to be factored in; however, even if the penalty was as severe and swift as something like a DQ, it would be worth it if we could just use these cards again. Despite all of the minor road-bumps, the 10% phase-out policy worked, and was a great balance that many players loved.

 

[SD PokeMom]

players would be just fine with a DQ for a missing translation? really?

'omg, i got a DQ just for not having a translation for my mewtwo EX!!11 EVERYONE knows what it does, why do i even need a translation? and i HAD one, a printout of the card scan from 'beach...the !@#%$% HJ was so !@#$ picky, they said it wasn't a LEGAL reference, ANNNNNNNNNND they wouldn't EVEN print one out for me when they had the computer and printer right there!!!!!111!!!!1 OP SUX!!11111!!'

'mom

 

[Cyrus]

Haters gon' hate; whiners' gon' whine.

Can't change anything about that.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

Haters gon' hate; whiners' gon' whine.

Can't change anything about that.

So what you're saying is that Judges should get the burden of dealing with players who complain, have honest problems, and hand out DQs fairly often for it? :nonono: (third)

The complications easily outweigh the benefits (speaking of what were they again?)

 

[Cyrus]

You're strawmanning my point, TRWP:

*I claimed that even the threat of DQ's (the maximum possible penalty, as well as the worst case scenario) was worth the cost of being able to do the 10% rule.

*'Mom countered, focusing only on the worst case scenario policy.

*My most recent post was a callback to when I said that the insufferable types at tournaments will still be insufferable, no matter what the rules are. You might argue that a policy like this "gives them more ammo," but you don't really need more ammo when the barrels of the gun are full...

This boils down to personal responsibility: if the individual player is personally responsible, then he/she should be rewarded with complete card pool access; if the player is NOT personally responsible, then he/she should be punished swiftly, efficiently, and to the fullest extent of the rules (game losses are honestly much swifter than DQ's, so what your judge did was inefficient).


Oh, and that ridiculous thing about fake translations used for gamesmanship? Dealt with by floor rules that were already present at the time, and required no further action.

 

[TheRolesWePlay]

You're strawmanning my point, TRWP:

*I claimed that even the threat of DQ's (the maximum possible penalty, as well as the worst case scenario) was worth the cost of being able to do the 10% rule.

*'Mom countered, focusing only on the worst case scenario policy.

*My most recent post was a callback to when I said that the insufferable types at tournaments will still be insufferable, no matter what the rules are. You might argue that a policy like this "gives them more ammo," but you don't really need more ammo when the barrels of the gun are full...

This boils down to personal responsibility: if the individual player is personally responsible, then he/she should be rewarded with complete card pool access; if the player is NOT personally responsible, then he/she should be punished swiftly, efficiently, and to the fullest extent of the rules (game losses are honestly much swifter than DQ's, so what your judge did was inefficient).

But why even let responsibility be a factor? You've said that there are reasons to use them, but what are they? I don't see the point of letting players use foreign cards if it only complicates things for both the event staff and players, and opening up another way to DQ players, just so people can use a few foreign cards.

Oh, and that ridiculous thing about fake translations used for gamesmanship? Dealt with by floor rules that were already present at the time, and required no further action

Here's the thing. Not all players know or understand the difference between a legal translation and an illegal one. It's obvious to us, but it isn't obvious to everyone. The scenario I referenced earlier I provided a translation from the old Pokemon TCG website, and was told it had to be from the compendium (or something to that effect). Just because the floor rules dictate something doesn't mean that every player is aware of it, and something risking a DQ like foreign cards did I feel is best put away and not brought back.

 

[Cyrus]

Advantages:

*Makes more cards available in the competitive play field

*More cards available for play = much easier to build an ideal deck.

*And players having an easier, less expensive time building ideal decks = a more legitimate, fun, competitive environment

Example - Tropical Beach in the US market:

*English is the only language allowed in our market (because apparently, not enough people in this country speak Spanish or French to justify giving us the same languages our neighbors to the north and south enjoy), meaning Americans can use less of the Tropical Beach pool than any country other than Japan.

*Because of this, fewer decks show up at events with four Tropical Beach, even if their most legitimate, ideal incarnations demand four.

*Ergo, the game is less legitimate, fun, and competitive because of how much more obscenely difficult it is to build a deck utilizing four Beach.



P.S. Rules, what I was mentioning by the "floor rules" was not a reference to you, but to the one thing I left unmentioned from Pokemom's list; that is, the 2007-2009 tactic used by some players to put a sleeveless Dusknoir in their deck boxes, "show" the opponent the card, and then coax them into playing differently even though the card was not in the list.

 

[SMP88]

I would bet you that if foreign cards were allowed the price of most foreign meta cards would jump. The only reason they're so cheap now is because most people don't want them. If everyone starts to use them sellers are just going to mark up the price. They won't be as high as English cards, but they're going to be higher than what they currently are.

 

[Cyrus]

Your prediction is probably correct, but you should also account for the likelihood that the price of US singles would go down.

Because competitive players aren't the primary purchasers of Monz, the price for non-English singles would most likely go up only a marginal amount, where the inflated prices of chase competitive cards like Mewtwo EX and Tropical Beach would go down significantly.